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SME V Setup Problem

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Posted on November 1, 2020 at 01:53:29
Cool_Jeeves
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Joined: March 12, 2012
Folks, it has been a rewarding experience to get the SME V. I had ditched the stock interconnect and used the Belden 8401 with a Furutech 5 Pin DIN plug and switchcraft gold connectors. But over time, I yearned to upgrade the phono cable.

I recently bought a pre-owned Furutech Silver Arrow. The sound improvements are significant. However while re-setting the tonearm, i noticed that the alignment tool supplied is not really upto the mark. It is an L shaped tool, which has to be slipped over the spindle, and then you are supposed to place the stylus exactly on the pinnacle as shown on that tool surface.

Thereafter you are supposed to move the arm pillar on its slider base forward or backward. Here is where the problems start.

The alignment tool sits very loosely over the spindle, i.e. there is a large difference in the diameter. By contrast, the Shure tool that I have is much simpler and guides towards two null points but sits tightly on the spindle.

Never mind...i can choose the Shure if I want. But because I earlier used the loose SMEV tool, i am now noticing that what looked like a correct alignment is however slightly off. I need to drag the tonearm pillar away from the spindle, and in doing this there is a problem.

The manual does not advise on how to loosen the two silver coloured bolts on the side of the base, except to say that the 3A/F hex wrench should be used. When i shine a torch and look through a magnifying glass, I cannot clearly see the shape of the bolts inside. Neither the supplied hex Key nor any of my allen keys fit the inside of the bolts. May be they have been used many times and have expanded and become unusable? These two bolts need to be loosened to enable the tonearm to slide back and forward on its base.

There are other things also. When I make the TT horizontally aligned and then follow up by making tonearm base also horizontally aligned, I discover that the top of the fixed headshell is not totally horizontal and the azimuth is off. So either the azimuth as measure at the stylus is correct or the tonearm base is horizontal, but not both.

I am stopping here out of frustration. Any advise would be appreciated.

 

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RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 1, 2020 at 03:13:20
-CM-
Audiophile

Posts: 32
Joined: October 15, 2020
I have an SME V and maybe can help, but I'm not at all proficient at setting it up.

From changing my cartridge recently, I do know that the SME V alignment protractor requires a spindle insert to snug it to the spindle. There should be one with your arm tools. I gave up on it though and bought one specifically for my table.

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 1, 2020 at 03:44:38
Audioquest4life
Audiophile

Posts: 1842
Joined: March 6, 2004
You can try using a MOFI Geo Disc for setting up the arm. It has been pretty accurate most of the time when using the SME V arm.

The tools for loosening the arm base should have been included in your kit for the the SME V arm. Did you use the SME V manual?

As far as adjusting the SME V height, I have noticed that when adjusting the lift of the arm, the portion on the arm that needs to be gently pushed down or raised, is not easily pushed down or raised. In fact, I noticed the same thing as you with the front of the arm, using the supplied protractor, that it read about 14 mm within the two reference marks on the arm in front 11mm at the rear of the arm as measured using the same method. I had to play around with both the HTA and the base adjustment, the tool that you lack...it allows the arm to slide forward and back, but, it also allows the arm to be slide up and down from the base. This worked somewhat for me. Alas, I have another SME V arm and have that mounted in the arm slot and it's perfect. My thoughts are that over years, perhaps, the arms may need a reset to get them right again. Reset, as in checking the baseline parameters. It could simply mean that the HTA mechanisms are sticking and not allowing the arm to go up and down easily and dynamic adjustments are not working correctly.

With regards to the SME V pro tractor, I have ever seen these spindle inserts. Can you post a pic and part number?

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 1, 2020 at 03:58:22
-CM-
Audiophile

Posts: 32
Joined: October 15, 2020
I don't have a part number, but you can see it in picture 526 in the manual. (Thanks for posting that.)

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 1, 2020 at 04:16:39
PAR
Audiophile

Posts: 1732
Location: South London, UK
Joined: June 4, 2019
" The alignment tool sits very loosely over the spindle, i.e. there is a large difference in the diameter. By contrast, the Shure tool that I have is much simpler and guides towards two null points but sits tightly on the spindle."

The HTA alignment gauge does not fit over the turntable spindle. You appear to be missing part of the tool which is a black collar which does slip over the spindle. The hole in the SME V gauge then fits over that collar precisely. You also need the black collar when using the other alignment tool for correctly setting the bias compensator by ensuring that the arm is aligned at a tangent to the spindle.

If you have the supplied wrench for the side bolts (it looks like a screwdriver but with a hexagonal ball tip) then you can see from it that the socket heads are hexagonal. . However any 3,0 A/F ball headed wrench should serve. Note this wrench only loosens/tightens the silver bolts which clamp the arm in place. If you loosen the bolts this will still not allow you to move the arm forward or backwards along the rack and pinion track in the arm base.You also should have an HTA key which is a "cranked" wrench with a star shaped cross section (a bit like a Torx driver but I do not think that Torx tools would fit). Have you got that? I guess that I also need to ask if you have the VTA key?

If the bolt heads on the arm clamp have been damaged by misuse then the only answer is to have them replaced. That will likely mean a return to SME for servicing. They have a standard service charge but the arm will be returned in virtually brand new condition.


"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 1, 2020 at 04:23:14
PAR
Audiophile

Posts: 1732
Location: South London, UK
Joined: June 4, 2019
" The 2 silver bolts are Torx 15. (I just compared against the official tool.)".

This is not correct. Torx crews/bolts heads have a star shaped cross section. The bolts on an SME V arm have hexagonal socket heads. They are what it says they are in the manual: 3,0 A/F.

"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams
"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 1, 2020 at 11:03:35
Self-Inflicted
Audiophile

Posts: 1203
Joined: January 4, 2008
"the Shure tool that I have is much simpler and guides towards two null points but sits tightly on the spindle.

You are missing the bush that fits in the SME alignment protractor, and it's supposed to be a loose fit otherwise when you slide the tonearm to coincide it would rip the stylus off, see page 16 of the manual.

Regards,
Mike.

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 1, 2020 at 14:59:15
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17260
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002



.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 1, 2020 at 21:48:33
Cool_Jeeves
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Joined: March 12, 2012
OK. This is good.
1) I am clear about the looseness part of the alignment protractor. This part was definitely missing from the list of items enclosed in the package I had got from the seller. I will craft one for myself.
2) The issue about the silver coloured bolts on the side - The other part that was missing was the straight star key which I can see in the picture. What I had got was only the hockey stick shaped one. I had used that inside the silver coloured bolts which must have damaged the inner hexagon. So now either send the arm to SME, or, use a simple plier with perhaps a paper or cloth protection for the bolt and grip teh bolt from outside and loosen it, so that I can fit the hockey-stick-star key into the star socket in the middle of the two silver bolts and move the pillar back on the slider.
3) this is teh big one - how is it that I am getting the arm base to be fully horizontal as per my spirit level but not able to get the top of the fixed headshell to also be horizontal at the same time?
4) I just want to comment that this is not the easiest arm to work with - the 4 bolts on the slider have to be screwed in very carefully indeed, else the paint on the arm is at risk.

Rgds
CJ

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 1, 2020 at 22:42:10
John Elison
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Posts: 23874
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
January 29, 2004
In my opinion, the SME V is one of the easiest tonearms to work with if you have the correct tools. You'll find that once you loosen the bolts holding the arm pillar you can adjust the arm so that the headshell is perfectly level before tightening them again. The problem with your arm is that someone tilted the arm pillar and then tightened the bolts.

I think your best bet is to send the arm back to SME for a complete overhaul and ask them to include the correct tools when they send it back. It's unfortunate that you bought a damaged tonearm because the SME V is one of the best tonearms in the world. This is one reason I would never buy a used tonearm, especially one as sophisticated as the SME V.

Good luck,
John Elison

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 2, 2020 at 03:00:07
PAR
Audiophile

Posts: 1732
Location: South London, UK
Joined: June 4, 2019



I don't see the main tool that you are missing in Tre's picture. So here are the tools that you need left to right:

HTA key . This I believe you do have. It locates in a hole between the two silver clamping bolts to move the arm to and fro along the rack in the arm base.

Bush that fits over the spindle to locate the HTA (overhang) gauge and the gauge for setting arm position for correct bias compensation

VTA key . Is this what you refer to as straight star key? This is not a star key but a vernier screw which is inserted in the locating hole behind the damping trough to raise and lower the arm ( with the clamping bolts loosened). The screw raises the arm but when lowering it the tip of the tool will raise above the platform which it otherwise presses against when in use. You then need to gently push the arm downwards using the bearing cradle.

3,0 A/F ball headed hex screwdriver. This is the tool that you need to tighten/loosen the silver arm clamping bolts. Note: do not over tighten the bolts. The clamp that they adjust only needs to grip.

You can buy a suitable ball headed hex wrench from a hardware store. For example:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/teng-tools-imperial-af-ball-end-hex-key-set-9-pieces/2096x

( this is a UK example as that is where I am).

As I have mentioned this previously you will know that I agree with John Elison. This is a fabulous arm and it should be looked after so a service from SME which will include fixing the bolts is what I would do. Not cheap but they do a complete strip down and rebuild. If you have an older sample with the copper VdH wiring then they can rewire it with the current silver plated copper VdH wiring which makes a big improvement ( that was included in the standard service charge when they did mine a couple of years ago).

As for the headshell not being level it appears that the previous owner may have tilted the arm base in order to adjust cartridge azimuth which isn't 0ffically a a feature of this arm. The arm pillar just needs putting back vertically unless damaged ( if so then another reason for return to SME for a service).


"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 2, 2020 at 06:47:04
Cool_Jeeves
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Joined: March 12, 2012
@John Elison and PAR and others

Excellent - this is quite accurate advice. I dont have some of these tools, especially the VTA Key and the ball headed hex screwdriver. The VTA is fortunately set perfectly, and i had moved the tonearm pillar after loosening the silver bolts by hand. Now I dont need to touch that, though when the silver bolts are loosened this can move, so I will need to use the long vertical screw to keep the pillar height unchanged when done with all adjustments.

The Ball headed hex - for now, i will clamp the silver bolts externally with a simple plier and cloth to protect paint and try loosening it. I should succeed in this. Then the pillar straightening.

If at the end of all this I am successful, I will listen for some months and then send the arm to SME for refurbishment.

Will post an update in a few days.

Many many thanks.

 

"This is not the easiest arm to work with...", posted on November 2, 2020 at 08:06:19
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
It's British after all. AND you didn't have the benefit of all the oddball tools, which make it so British. But after this you'll be able to work on a Jaguar or MG. Think of it that way.

 

RE: "This is not the easiest arm to work with...", posted on November 2, 2020 at 08:36:43
Cool_Jeeves
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Joined: March 12, 2012
Oh yeah! that is for sure. No argument about the fact that the 4 screws on the corners of the base have to be very carefully worked - a single slip and the paint gets damaged - they could have made the base plate slightly longer and wider. Would have made a diff. Or made it usable with allen keys instead of screws needing a screw driver.

On the Jag, that will happen if I succeed in taking apart and putting back by 301. That is for another day...

 

"you'll be able to work on a Jaguar or MG", posted on November 2, 2020 at 08:59:29
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10110
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007



Hopefully the arm doesn't have Lucas wiring.

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 2, 2020 at 13:07:21
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23874
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
January 29, 2004
> VTA key . Is this what you refer to as straight star key?

No! The HTA key has the star on the end.

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 2, 2020 at 14:24:53
WntrMute2
Audiophile

Posts: 781
Location: Detroit
Joined: September 16, 2002
The other issue with the SME-V, which I believe is a great tonearm, is that the alignment gauge is flawed in another aspect. The pinhole that the stylus is supposed to sit in is NOT at the center of the cross marking the point for the pinhole. I ordered another gauge from SME and discussed the issue with them via email. The answer was cryptic. I ended ordering an arc protractor from Accutrak. Ken hooked me up as would a Mint protractor from Yip.

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 2, 2020 at 14:42:37
PAR
Audiophile

Posts: 1732
Location: South London, UK
Joined: June 4, 2019
" The HTA key has the star on the end."


Exactly!
"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 2, 2020 at 15:47:28
PAR
Audiophile

Posts: 1732
Location: South London, UK
Joined: June 4, 2019
" I ended ordering an arc protractor from Accutrak. Ken hooked me up as would a Mint protractor from Yip."

I am unsure using about using generalised arc protractors with the SME V. Calculating the correct arc requires knowing the distance between the stylus and pivot and hence each protractor is unique to the arm/cartridge combination as the precise stylus position is unknown cartridge to cartridge. This is not a problem with most arms as the slotted headshell means that you can change the stylus position in relation to the pivot ( that is what the alignment process does i.e. it is achieving correct effective arm length). With SMEs you cannot do this and the distance is fixed. With SMEs the geometry changes instead the position of pivot to spindle.

I do recall that one rated manufacturer of arc protractors ( it is in fact Yip and Mint) requires SME V owners to measure the distance from stylus to cartridge mounting holes so that the correct arc may be calculated. They say " SME tonearms do not allow Effective Length adjustment, hence we need the MHST distance of your cartridge. Read the following link for more information: SME Tonearms

Note Best Tractors built for SME tonearms are tonearm/turntable/cartridge specific."

Mint also link the Audiogon discussion that I link on this subject.

"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 2, 2020 at 16:01:45
WntrMute2
Audiophile

Posts: 781
Location: Detroit
Joined: September 16, 2002
I had one done for my arm by Yip and one by Ken Willis. Both were a magnitude better than the printed paper one by SME with the pinhole off center from the printed cross of the stock alignment gauge as well as the parallax error inherent in trying to look straight down over the tonearm a couple of centimeters above the jig. But whatever you believe is best. I believe the adjustment at the pivot is the same as the slots in the headshell. That is why there is adjustment. I certainly have excellent sound with no audible distortion using the arc type protractor.

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 2, 2020 at 17:41:03
John Elison
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Posts: 23874
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
January 29, 2004
The SME V is designed for null-points of 66.0-mm and 120.89-mm. Consequently, all you need to do is mount the cartridge in perfect alignment with the headshell and use a single point protractor with its null-point at 66.0-mm. You can easily make a paper protractor like that for the SME V. You just need to align the cartridge or cantilever for a single null-point of 66.0-mm and the outer null-point will be correct at 120.89-mm.

My SME protractor has its dimple exactly in the center of the cross-hairs so it works just fine for me. Of course, it's designed for cartridges with the cantilever correctly mounted in the cartridge body. Nearly all my cartridges have correctly aligned cantilevers so I have no problem using the SME protractor.

Arc protractors are better adapted to tonearms with a fixed mounting distance and adjustable stylus-to-pivot effective length.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: As I've posted here year after year on the same question, posted on November 2, 2020 at 19:04:21
Using whatever protractor in whichever pinhole with your Mk I Eyeball will get you to a point where further measurement is done by ear. When you can't hear a difference in SQ and/or distortion in millimeter increments on the arc, you're home.

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 3, 2020 at 02:12:08
PAR
Audiophile

Posts: 1732
Location: South London, UK
Joined: June 4, 2019
" I believe the adjustment at the pivot is the same as the slots in the headshell."

It is for setting overhang. However when using an arc protractor instead of a single point type there is a significant difference. The former relies upon the radius of the arc being calculated from the specified effective length of the arm. That is fine if the stylus position in relation to the pivot is known as stylus to pivot distance is the effective length. However if such an arc is used but the effective arm length is not known or other than specified by the arm manufacturer then the radius of the arc will be incorrect.

In most arms this problem does not arise as the cartridge and, thus, the stylus position vis a vis the pivot can be altered in the headshell slots as it varies cartridge design to cartridge design. In SMEs it cannot, so to use an arc protractor the actual , rather than predicted, position of the stylus needs to be known in order to calculate the correct radius of the arc. Which is why Yip at Mint asks SME customers to measure the distance from stylus to mounting holes (the latter being fixed in an SME arm). Only then can he calculate the correct arc.

"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 3, 2020 at 04:10:44
Cool_Jeeves
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Joined: March 12, 2012
In that respect I find my Shure protractor easy to use. The two null points are independent of the length of the tonearm, and I only need vary the stylus - pivot distance on the slide base. The Shure protractor is for 66.0-mm and 120.89-mm null points. On that protractor, the edges look parallel at both null points, but it is a bit difficult to be perfectly sure, so the protractor supplied with the SME would be the better one to use - once I make the collar for it.

 

RE: "This is not the easiest arm to work with...", posted on November 4, 2020 at 01:33:08
PAR
Audiophile

Posts: 1732
Location: South London, UK
Joined: June 4, 2019



" No argument about the fact that the 4 screws on the corners of the base have to be very carefully worked - a single slip and the paint gets damaged - they could have made the base plate slightly longer and wider. Would have made a diff. Or made it usable with allen keys instead of screws needing a screw driver."

As we have already discovered that whoever sold you the arm did not give you a full set of tools it seems that that omission may not be the only problem. There are NO screws anywhere on the SME V. All fixings are hex socket headed bolts (which are made by SME themselves). See the picture. It appears from your descriptions so far that this arm may have had a certain amount of abuse. This is also why you think it is a difficult arm to work with whereas it is one of the world's easiest.

Frankly if you see anything on an SME V which doesn't look like it has the engineering and finish of a Leica or Hasselblad camera then it is not original.

Personally I would now be concerned whether or not all is as it should be and would be seriously thinking of sending it to SME for a service sooner rather than later.

Good luck with it,

Pete


"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

 

RE: "This is not the easiest arm to work with...", posted on November 4, 2020 at 07:19:29
Cool_Jeeves
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Joined: March 12, 2012
Hi Pete, thanks for this. Very clear. I will have a crack at it for my satisfaction with what tools I have, then send it to SME.

Rgds
CJ

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 4, 2020 at 07:24:30
WntrMute2
Audiophile

Posts: 781
Location: Detroit
Joined: September 16, 2002
IF only the pinhole was in the middle of the printed cross I would agree that it is a good protractor. Both of mine are off significantly I'm afraid.

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 4, 2020 at 08:27:21
John Elison
Audiophile

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Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
January 29, 2004
Well, if yours is off significantly, you should be able to use a pin or a needle to make a new dimple exactly in the center of the cross-hairs. If you can do that you're back in business.

However, the point I'm trying to make is that your SME protractor is simply a single point protractor with it's null-point at 66.0-mm. Therefore, you can use any standard two-point protractor with its inner null-point at 66.0-mm to align your SME V as long as your cartridge is mounted symmetrically in the headshell and the cantilever is in correct alignment with the cartridge body. By mounting your cartridge properly in the headshell you automatically set the offset angle; then, all you need is a single-point protractor with its null-point at 66.0-mm. You can print a paper protractor from the Vinyl Engine or you can use the paper protractor that comes with the Hi-Fi News Test Record. In other words, you can use any protractor that includes a null-point at 66.0-mm. That's the beauty of the sliding base method of aligning your SME tonearm.

Once you achieve alignment at 66.0-mm, your cartridge will also be in perfect alignment at 120.89-mm. You don't need an arc protractor and you don't need to go back-and-forth between the two null-points for a time consuming iterative alignment process. Your SME tonearm is the fastest and easiest tonearm in the world to align.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 4, 2020 at 15:34:31
WntrMute2
Audiophile

Posts: 781
Location: Detroit
Joined: September 16, 2002
I feel like we are beating a dead horse here John. How are you sure whether the pinhole or the cross are correct? I do understand about the single point protractor. I would think that a company like SME could be more precise on either their printing or their pinholing!

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 4, 2020 at 15:50:49
John Elison
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Posts: 23874
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
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January 29, 2004
Well, it is what it is! I'm sorry you can't seem to get over it but I'm perfectly happy with my SME protractor and it seems to work just fine for me. I always recheck my alignment with a DB Systems protractor and the two agree with each other completely. Therefore, if I were you, I'd use a different protractor and get on with my life. The alignment process will be just as fast and just as accurate with any protractor that has an alignment grid around a 66.0-mm null-point.

Good luck,
John Elison

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on November 4, 2020 at 16:12:44
WntrMute2
Audiophile

Posts: 781
Location: Detroit
Joined: September 16, 2002
No need to be condescending. I explained I am very happy regarding aligning my tonearm. The discussion originated around the supplied protractor. No need to respond about this to me.

 

Sorry..., posted on November 6, 2020 at 22:22:45
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
PAR, I certainly meant no insult to SME or any of its products by my little joke with Cool Jeeves. To say that British products have a reputation for complexity is not to say that the quality in any particular case is not top drawer state of the art, for whatever era. I certainly recognize that the SME V is a very fine tonearm. On the other hand, you yourself posted a photo showing four separate and bespoke tools necessary to mount the arm, while most other tonearms can be mounted with standard tools of one kind or another. I think of this as an attractive idiosyncracy typical of some British-designed products going way back to mid-century automobiles, some of which are nevertheless objects of my desire.

 

RE: Sorry..., posted on November 7, 2020 at 02:49:46
PAR
Audiophile

Posts: 1732
Location: South London, UK
Joined: June 4, 2019
Lew, no need to apologise at all. In fact I was was amused by your comment which has a degree of truth. Actually I was just about to post that picture of the genuine Lucas replacement smoke myself but 1973shovel beat me to it.

BTW, even though Britain has been a metric country since 1965 (except for beer, milk and road distances - ask a Conservative Member of Parliament why, I don't know), the SME arm uses components with imperial measurements. I guess that Alastair Robertson-Aikman was just used to using them.

Best Wishes

Pete

"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

 

RE: Sorry..., posted on November 9, 2020 at 22:00:04
Cool_Jeeves
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Joined: March 12, 2012
Reply from SME

"At no time do we suggest or mention in the owner's manual to measure for levelness (or horizontal) at the headshell as the top surface is purely a cosmetic finish and is not guaranteed level with the base assembly. The underside of the headshell which contacts with a correctly fitted cartridge is precisely machined to give the correct [ level ] interface with the cartridge."

So I will instead take a hi res head on photograph with gridlines and see azimuth. This approach of measuring azimuth with a circular spirit level on the headshell was wrong. The pillar of my SME V may well be absolutely perpendicular to the base.

In that case I need only to get the right screws and i should be able to get this arm working perfectly. There is no friction anywhere in any direction in this arm.

 

RE: Sorry..., posted on November 14, 2020 at 05:35:28
Cool_Jeeves
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Joined: March 12, 2012
I have been working on the SMEV, and have got it upto the 90% mark. The last 10% is related to being unable to achieve horizontality of headshell (despite what SME has replied above, I think I would sleep better if the headshell were horizontal).

The tonearm base is a bit tough to work out horizontality for, as though it looks to be perfectly machined, the spirit level does not confirm horizontality in every part of the base. Plus there are slight differences in the heights of the slider and the guide rails. So rather than aim for base horizontality, I will aim for the headshell top. Some more carpentry work remaining there. But I am close.

I also managed to work externally on the two side screws and achieved the freedom to slide the base back and forth using the angled key, and change the VTA (If I want).

The major surprise was this - the SME V manual says that the null points for this arm are 66.04mm and 120.9mm. I have been so far using the SME V protractor. The absence of a collar is a pain but not so much of a pain, since as in the end I can see form directly above and the protractor hole and spindle look perfectly concentric at least to the eye.

My Shure protractor also has the same null points. I switched to the Shure, and found that I had to pull back the pillar by almost 4mm. Which is a lot. When I got the outer alignment the inner null point was automatically aligned. I spent a lot of time on confirming that the underside of the DL103R cartridge was parallel to the protractor lines. I measured the Shure null point distances, just to be sure, and indeed they are 66.04 and 120.9 (I could measure till first decimal only, I am fine with that).

I then came back to the SMEV protractor and found that I had to pull forward the tonearm base by 4mm again to achieve alignment on this tool. And here the approach was the concentricity described above plus the arm body being visually congruent with the shape on the tool, looking from above.

How can this be???

Currently the sound is not as good (using Shure) as it was with the SMEV tool, so I guess I will go back to that, but they mystery threatens to keep me awake...

 

RE: Sorry..., posted on November 16, 2020 at 15:36:01
flood2
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Posts: 2552
Joined: January 11, 2011
The most important aspect to focus on is the perpendicularity of the arm post to the plinth mounting. If the pillar is not perpendicular to the base then all bets are off for setting azimuth and checking the null points - when the pillar is not normal to the plinth, the arc traced over the record surface is not circular and azimuth varies continuously across the modulation envelope of the disc.

Most cartridges are unlikely to have "perfect" azimuth - there are two aspects to azimuth. The first is that the coils need to have a perfect orthogonal relationship to each other and the groove wall, and secondly that the cantilever has also been mounted such that the tip sits normal to the record surface to contact each of the groove walls in the same relative position to the bottom of the groove. Except in rare cases, most cartridges will need to be canted anticlockwise or clockwise in varying amounts - you need to verify azimuth electrically with a test disc. Trying to get the headshell/cartridge mounting plane parallel to the platter by visual means is not guaranteed to achieve the correct azimuth.

As for your null point issue, it is quite likely that the cantilever is skewed. With the SME jig you are setting overhang by matching the outline of the headshell to the jig when the stylus is in the correct location which assumes that the cantilever lies perfectly on the cartridge centreline. Since the SME jig is a one-point method, you can't verify the amount of cartridge twist to neutralise the skew. However, with a 2 point protractor, you are aligning to the cantilever relationship to the grid.

Set the overhang using the SME jig, then use the outer null to check if the cantilever is skewed. Fix the offset, then check the alignment at the inner null. Any discrepancy would be related to parallax errors in setting the overhang so go back to check the outline matching and repeat the 2 point check. Alignment is an iterative process in order to minimise random errors. The use of two different tools enables you to minimise the effect of a systematic error caused by (for example) an oversized spindle hole on the jig in use.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: Sorry..., posted on November 16, 2020 at 22:47:56
Cool_Jeeves
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Joined: March 12, 2012
Hi Anthony

Thank you for your reply.

Fundamentally, I am determined to wrestle this problem to the ground myself first but ultimately will turn it over to SME for a proper overhaul. They reverted meanwhile about their ability to just supply me the few missing keys and bolts. The initial setup jig was also missing. When I get the full overhaul done, they will supply that also.

On headshell top horizontality, I will get the disc. At present it is significantly out of whack. I will get to some level of accuracy in azimuth by getting the pillar to be vertical and then use the disc.

From your comment and from the earlier comment by John Elison, i can see that there will be some freedom to do this to a certain extent, though I am unable to visualize how the vertical slider for the pillar would be, is it simply held in place by the screws or is it moving up and down on a rail? Anyway, I will try this very delicately and after loosening of the side screws.

On the catiliver being skewed, 1) if you mean looking at the cartridge head on, i should see the cantiliver skewed to one side, then I have to say it doesn't look like it. I photographed in some detail earlier and it was symmetrical. 2) the extent by which I am having to pull back the pillar when using shure jig is around 3mm, which is huge. 3) I don't think there can be any cartridge twist to neutralize the skew - there is no degree of freedom here - it as two holes for two catridge screws and that's it. The cartridge underside is parallel to the headshell top (the relevant edge) based on a visual check.

To your suggestion, if I set overhang first with SME jig, then check offset in Shure jig on outer null, and if there is mismatch (and there is) i cannot change offset. It is fixed. I can only pull pillar back.

So can a skew create a need for a 3-4mm pullback? I can think that the way this can happen is if the headshell is carrying a wrong offset - but it matches the jig exactly. So now both the headshell and jig outline have to be wrong...

 

RE: Sorry..., posted on November 17, 2020 at 00:22:37
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2552
Joined: January 11, 2011
Hi
Having not seen your cartridge, I will accept that there may not be a skew. However, I would just point out that a 1° skew will be essentially invisible to the naked eye; for a 6mm cantilever length (which is 5.5mm projected on to a parallel plane to the headshell mounting plane assuming a 23° VTA) a 1° skew amounts to less than 0.1mm displacement of the tip from the centreline (assuming that the motor lies perfectly on the centreline of the body).

I do take your point that the amount of adjustment you are making is relatively large which lends credence to your hypothesis that the jig may indeed be incorrect; it is a possibility that the jig supplied may be for the 309 which is designed with a different set of null points (63.5, 119mm) instead of the correct one for your V.

If that is not the problem, then the only other suggestion I can offer is to ensure that the spindle hole of your protractor and jig be a perfect snug fit on the spindle. If there is any slop, then there lies the source of your error since that will result in simultaneous errors for both offset and overhang which will be revealed when checking with your two point protractor.

Best of luck in sorting out the conundrum!
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: Sorry..., posted on November 17, 2020 at 00:48:10
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2552
Joined: January 11, 2011



Just to reiterate the importance of the horizontal bearing being aligned correctly to the plinth, depending on the tilt, you will never get two null points since the locus of the stylus on the record surface is not circular in nature - it will be a projection of a circular arc on to the record surface much like the tilted equator line projected onto a table upon which a globe is placed.
In other words, you must solve this problem first before you worry about the azimuth and null points.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: Sorry..., posted on November 17, 2020 at 04:13:59
Cool_Jeeves
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Joined: March 12, 2012
Hi Anthony

1) if i take your statement that a non vertical pillar will mean no chance of simultaneously getting both null points right, by implication if I do get both the null points, the pillar must be vertical?

2) The fact is that Shure jig is 66.04 and 120.08, and I am getting both exactly.

3) That means that for the SME V, not only is the jig having a different set of null points, but the SME V itself has a different set of null points, wonder how that can be...there is no doubt about the superb quality of manufacturing - this is definitely not a fake arm.

4) Am I to ignore the reply from SME that I posted above about the fixed headshell top horizontality not to be worried about, and that it is only cosmetic? that is the missing part in my setup at present.

5) If How does one ensure in SME V that the pillar is vertical? The manual is mum on this. Assuming that the pillar is correctly perpendicular to the arm base, it would imply that the arm base is correctly levelled on the plinth (ideally the plinth itself is perfectly level, but the tightness of the 4 corner screws can make a small diff I think)...but my point is, how do I test for the base being level since my spirit level does not find a suitable flat area that I can look directly over. And there are minute differences in height between the slider and the rails, so the spirit level cannot sit on both at the same time.

6) The spirit level on the headshell top suggests that the Azimuth is significantly off. By this logic I should not only not get the null point, but the stylus should not even be touching the record at the inner null point if I get the outer one first. But since it is not only correctly touching, but is also aligned at both null points, I suspect what SME says about headshell top only being of cosmetic value is correct.

7) By the above logic, again, getting both null points means that at stylus is moving in a completely horizontal plane and hence pillar is vertical hence Azimuth is automatically achieved?

Thanks in advance to you or anyone else who replies and who has been patient enough to read my postings on all these problems.

 

RE: Sorry..., posted on November 17, 2020 at 04:25:23
Cool_Jeeves
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Joined: March 12, 2012
I can of course raise the arm life, and test the height of some suitable point on the headshell with the tonearm first near to the outer groove and then near to the inner groove. If the height is identical then the pillar is vertical. The manual does talk about something like this but not for setting the pillar.

 

RE: Sorry..., posted on November 17, 2020 at 15:07:50
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2552
Joined: January 11, 2011
If you are able to hit both null points to your satisfaction then it suggests that you should stick with the 2 point protractor and not worry about the SME jig. I guess, the proof is in the listening! If you are able to get a consistent performance over the entire side of a record using the Shure but not the SME, then that would validate the Shure protractor as your reference tool to use.
I forgot to mention earlier, but assumed that it would be self-evident, that ensuring perpendicularity of the horizontal bearing of the arm to the plinth also presumes that you have confirmed that your platter is perfectly level (doesn't rock) as it rotates.

SME, being an engineering company, will define tolerances for critical dimensions and components. To this end, it sounds like they only bother to machine the underside of the headshell element in which case I would get a stiff sheet of acrylic, metal shim or equivalent, that is perfectly flat and make a little pontoon that you screw in place of a cartridge to determine the level with respect to the underside of the headshell which SME would pay attention to.

I went through a similar exercise to you about a year ago so I share your frustration and also enthusiasm for solving the problem!
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: Sorry..., posted on November 17, 2020 at 19:59:20
Cool_Jeeves
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Joined: March 12, 2012
OK. Removing the cartridge and checking the underside of the fixed headshell would be a good approach and can be done in a couple of ways...will try them out.

I was wrong in my previous post about assuming that the headshell height being same at different points with arm lift raised would indicate that the pillar was vertical.

And yes, platter is horizontal.

 

RE: Sorry..., posted on November 22, 2020 at 08:24:39
Cool_Jeeves
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Joined: March 12, 2012
I spent a very fruitful 2 hours and reached Nirvana. I made 3 decisions.

Firstly in spite of what SME said about top of headshell not being relevant to azimuth, I used my little circular spirit level on the headshell and got that right. I have to check with Brian laker why anyone sent me that message. As per John Elison's post, I could adjust the pillar slightly till this fell in place.

Secondly I ditched the Shure Protractor despite the SME V manual saying that the null points are 66.04 and 120.08 and the Shure having exactly those measurements. I went back to the SME V protractor. I fashioned a little collar myself by wrapping some paper around the spindle and then wrapping some cellotape around it sevveral times till it had acceptable thickness and could turn smoothly on the spindle. After that the alignment was simple. I had to bring the tonearm forward by 3mm from the Shure position.

Thirdly I bought a bigger screwdriver set in which one screwdriver had the 3 A/F star head which then made everything else easy.

So all is well that ends well - I am discovering what a good bargain the Furutech Silver Arrow was.
Thanks to everyone who took the trouble to help out. I read every post very carefully 2-3 times. I ultimately will have to give this arm to SME, without doubt, just to make sure that everything is brought back to like-new condition.

I also now have 4 screws which have the hollow hexagonal head which I can use in the 4 corners of the base. But there is very little space in at least 2 of the 4 corners (the ones nearest to the TT) to operate easily with allen keys so I wonder how it can be as easy as PAR said it is to manage.

 

RE: SME V Setup Problem, posted on January 9, 2021 at 08:08:36
Cool_Jeeves
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Joined: March 12, 2012
Friends, I recently swapped out the DL103R and got myself a re-tipped (actually re-cantilevered) ART-9.

I mounted it using the SME V supplied jig, and even if it does not coincide with 66/120.08m. So SME Jig it is and has been.

I made sure (I think) that the cartridge leads are tight both at the cartridge and tonearm ends. I cant spot any loose connections anywhere.

I am using tracking force 2g and antiskate also 2.0 setting on the SMEV.

The sound is perfect except that for the first half of each side of an LP, the sound is louder on the left channel than the right, and hence the image is formed to one side.

But as the needles completes around 5 minutes the image on its own starts moving to the center, and after 10 min it is perfectly centered.

I have many tracks which I can play on my CDP also, and as I toggle, there is no shift of image. The image lock is very strong till the end of the side.

Why is the image off center for the first 8-10min? I tried changing anti skate but it makes little difference. The stylus is a Boron micro ridge.

Thanks in advance.

 

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