Funk firm Houdinin

They did, and I tried one., posted on September 24, 2020 at 08:21:45
ghost of olddude55 Audiophile Posts: 32546 Joined: July 14, 2017	It changed the sound of the cartridge, but I can't really say if it improved things any. Softened the sound a bit. Sure as hell didn't "reduce colorations by an order of magnitude." The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

Looks like a very expensive piece of rubber, posted on September 24, 2020 at 13:34:57
jedrider Audiophile Posts: 15166 Location: No. California Joined: December 26, 2003	I didn't know cartridges needed to be decoupled from the arm?

RE: Funk firm Houdinin , posted on September 24, 2020 at 17:20:11

flood2
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It's a concept that has been around for decadese so Houdini is nothing new at all - Cartridgeman sells something similar and Grado and Midas have sold additional metal slabs with point contacts to sit between the cartridge and headshell.

Apparently it will flex by up to 1mm under pressure.

In practice, it changes the arm height and adds mass so these will be a contributing factor - if you change the stylus position with respect to the vertical bearing axis, you will change the dynamic change in VTF as the stylus rides up and down with surface thickness variation of the record. If the offset angle doesn't match the vertical bearing offset then the azimuth will change as the stylus rides up and down.
Since the Cartridgeman isolator and Houdini will flex under pressure, any difference in screw torque applied will result in the azimuth being adjusted as when side compresses more than the other.
SOOOoooo, adding up these factors (and more)....sure it will sound different, but not because the device is actually doing something positive!

For cartridges like the Ortofon Kontrapunkt/Cadenza which have the 3 line contact features on the mating surface, the Houdini will provide little benefit and will more than likely cause more problems.

It is noteworthy that none of the manufacturers can tell you exactly what difference these devices will make. They simply say to "trust your ears" and that is because these gadgets are just as likely to make things worse....which is not to say that there isn't a benefit, but it is better to solve the original source of a problem rather than relying on band-aid solutions
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

Hold on there, posted on September 24, 2020 at 23:22:23

PAR
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Location: South London, UK
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This product is yet to be released (FunkFirm website still says today "to be released at the end of September)so nobody has yet seen or heard one.

Given Arthur Khoubesserian's history of innovation from his Pink Triangle turntable of the 1970s (I think that may have been the first to use acrylic as a platter material), to the Achromat and the FXR-2 tonearm it may be prove to be something of interest. I am not writing it off on the basis of having seen a press release.

I think I will wait until seeing reviews of the actual product and finding precisely how it is different to other decouplers before making any comment beyond saying that those posted so far seem premature.

"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

Well, the OP asked about the Cartridge Man device., posted on September 25, 2020 at 03:02:17

ghost of olddude55
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And I answered, quoting Funk Firm's advertising blurb. The Cartridge Man device didn't improve anything by orders of magnitude.
The Funk Firm Houdini might or might not be the greatest thing since the electric starter, but after 55 years of fooling around with stereo equipment I've learned to be skeptical when any company promises improvements "by orders of magnitude."
Especially since, if gluing a block of dense foam between the cart and the head shell was such a great idea, it would be SOP by now.

The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

RE: Well, the OP asked about the Cartridge Man device., posted on September 25, 2020 at 03:45:04
PAR Audiophile Posts: 1732 Location: South London, UK Joined: June 4, 2019	True the OP did ask that question and,yes, there is indeed the Cartridge Man device. But to what degree are the two devices the same except in general application? We have yet to find out. "We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

I remain highly skeptical., posted on September 25, 2020 at 16:12:19
ghost of olddude55 Audiophile Posts: 32546 Joined: July 14, 2017	If it was such a good idea, TT manufactures like Rega, Linn, Technics, VPI, et al would already offer it. The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

RE: I remain highly skeptical., posted on September 25, 2020 at 16:49:40

PAR
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" If it was such a good idea, TT manufactures like Rega, Linn, Technics, VPI, et al would already offer it."

That is, of course, absurd. What you are proposing is that innovation can only come from well known established companies. Or that there can be no new inventions as if they were any good they would have already been invented.

"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

RE: I remain highly skeptical., posted on September 25, 2020 at 20:16:02

flood2
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I don't believe that Funk can claim Houdini to be innovative - "innovation" implies that the combination of features aren't obvious to one of ordinary skill in the art.

The fact is that there have been other such devices pre-dating Houdini which purport to achieve similar aims; the CartridgeMan device is essentially the same (without the industrial design finesse that has gone into the Houdini).

I assume that the marketing claims on the product page link must have been supplied by Funk: " Three years of analysis and modelling showed that "best practise" of firmly bolting cartridge-to-arm is completely wrong. "
If this is the case then it would be advantageous to provide objective evidence to back up this bold claim!

The lack of published specifications is certainly a red flag to me. It means that there is no way to independently verify the performance claims - the same lack of information surrounds his top turntable (Super Deck Grande) which allegedly has the lowest W/F "in audio history" according to Audio Magazine.... and yet there are no published specifications to support such hyperbole.

Given the nature of the device, it is unlikely to work consistently given the wide combination of arms/plinth/cartridge compliance/cartridge housing.

Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

https://www.thevinyladventure.com/product/funk-firm-houdini-

RE: I remain highly skeptical., posted on September 26, 2020 at 00:55:41

PAR
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Joined: June 4, 2019

Anthony, as expected a rational and well argued point. However all we have currently is effectively a press release. Such communications do not usually provide full technical analyses and measurements. Which is why I say that these criticisms are premature (of course they may well be justified later).

Nobody ( aside for the manufacturer) has seen the Houdini let alone tested one. As for it being the same as any other decoupler Khoubesserian refers to its suspension system being patented. Patent examiners in the UK at least ( where Funk Firm are) will most certainly not grant a patent to inventions that consist mainly of prior art.

I look forward to reading some reviews with measurements. Unlike other magazines Hi-Fi News have long published resonance analyses of the tonearms reviewed by them so one may hope that they have the technical wherewithal to provide us with some answers given the opportunity.

Best Wishes

Pete

"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

As pointed out below, it's not an innovation., posted on September 26, 2020 at 04:10:33

ghost of olddude55
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It's not a new idea.
And not at any point in my response to you did I claim that only large companies could innovate.
The idea of a cartridge mounted in a tone arm playing a grooved record goes back to Thomas Edison. There have been hundreds of turntable, tone arm, and cartridge manufacturers, most of them small companies with innovative designs.
At no point did any of them ever recommend that the user put a block of foam rubber between the cartridge and the tone arm.
You think any of them tried "decoupling" in their research labs? You think any of them would have been happy to sell such an "innovation" at a profit? Especially in a market segment where people are willing to shell out tens of thousands of dollars for speaker wire?
And the price--$400 for a little block of foam that's going to add mass and screw up VTA?

The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

why the post, posted on September 27, 2020 at 10:17:36

nvinyl66
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I agree with the need to back up claims with measurements.
The reason that I posted the question regarding the originality of the idea is that the very well known designer reportedly considers this tweak to be " the greatest contribution contribution he's ever made in audio."

https://positive-feedback.com/industry-news/houdini-cartridge-de-coupler-a-new-patent-issued-to-arthur-koubesserian/

RE: As pointed out below, it's not an innovation., posted on September 27, 2020 at 16:16:49

PAR
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Joined: June 4, 2019

Ghost, I an sorry but you are making this up. You have no idea at all that it is just a block of foam. You have never seen or touched the Houdini. Further it has been patented. It is not feasible to attain a patent on a product that is the same as something that already exists (especially in Europe). The patent application will have been thoroughly researched by a patent examiner. All examples of "prior art" will have been identified and assessed to see if the design seeking patent protection resembles them in any significant way. If it does the application for a patent will be refused.

We can therefore at least be sure that it cannot significantly resemble Len Gregory's (the Cartridge Man) decoupler (which is what I assume you tried) even if its objective is similar.

Would it be a good idea to decouple the cartridge from the arm? Have you ever looked at resonance plots of tonearms? All kinds of nasties in the audible band. So yes it is but ( and it is a big but) only if the cartridge can be held in a stable position with relation to the record grooves. This would seem to be the "eureka" solution that Khoubesserian is claiming. We await to see if he has.

"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

Houdini Samples are already in the Wild...., posted on September 27, 2020 at 16:41:36

flood2
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Hi Pete

There are samples floating around apparently - there has been quite a bit of interest on different forums and comments from people who have tested samples.

One person quoted results comparing an AT-F7 and an Ortofon Kontrapunkt B with and without Houdini.
Prior to the Houdini, the Kontrapunkt B was apparently the preferred cartridge (presumably by some margin as the user was intending to have it refurbished/retipped). When the Houdini was added to the F7, the preference changed to prefer the AT-F7. Significantly, the comparison results of the Houdini+Kontrapunkt B were not mentioned explicitly, but one infers that the difference was not subtantial. This suggests that the effectiveness is highly dependent on the components used as one would expect.
To me, the "test" was quite inconclusive in determining the effectiveness of the product as one is left to guess at the consistency of arm height, alignment, VTF etc. Logically, it seems somewhat unlikely that the F7 (which sports a 0.2x0.7mil nude stylus compared to the Replicant 100 on the Kontrapunkt) would "best" the Kontrapunkt B by what is implied as a significant jump (given that the Kontrapunkt showed little benefit with the Houdini). I have an AT-F7 and whilst it is technically competent, it is an otherwise unspectacular cartridge which is readily beaten (sonically) by similarly priced products in its peer group (such as a Denon DL301/II) and I would hypothesise that the beneficial result of Houdini with the F7 is likely due to other factors.

Whilst I tend to view AK's claims as hyperbole, his entreaty to "listen" can't be challenged - given that it is impossible to challenge a subjective opinion, it is quite possible that Houdini is effective with certain combinations of equipment and specific conditions. However, I remain sceptical.

To me, it is far better to focus on proper component matching and view Houdini as a band-aid solution for sub-optimal component combinations that assumes that the source of colouration originates solely from the arm. Houdini will have no effect on ameliorating the stylus reaction force/cantilever compliance on inducing vibrations in the vinyl which the late John Crabbe observed leading him to conclude that the preference for MCs due to perceived "air" was a "load of hooey"(!). Neither will it solve vibrations transmitted through the platter.

I would certainly be interested to see a proper technical analysis from the likes of Paul Miller.

Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=36067.0

RE: Houdini Samples are already in the Wild...., posted on September 28, 2020 at 05:21:33

PAR
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Anthony do have any links to the reports so far?

I am not surprised that a user changed his preference from his Ortofon to the AT cartridge. Using the Houdini will change correct SRA and the Ortofon has a Replicant stylus which I have noted from here and other forums many users do not understand how to align so, without better information, there already exists a doubt as the the comparison.

I do think it appropriate to maintain a sceptical stance but only to go further towards either a negative or positive position on it after some independently produced measurements become available. I think that we both agree that Dr. Miller would be an appropriate person to produce them.

Just a small point on John Crabbe's conclusion on MC cartridges. It was not about the moving coil principle per se but in regard to the low compliance of the majority of such cartridges. In regard to " Neither will it solve vibrations transmitted through the platter." for clarification Crabbe's little experiment in this regard concerned vibrations transmitted through the disc itself rather than the platter. He placed a cartridge in the play out area of the disc which he listened to whilst playing the opening track with a low compliance MC. He could hear that opening track via the cartridge placed in the lead out groove.

Best Wishes

Pete
"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

RE: Houdini Samples are already in the Wild...., posted on September 28, 2020 at 16:37:26

flood2
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Hi Pete

The LH link quoted the only example I came across with a comparison between more than one cartridge and there was another chap in another (see link) thread who claimed to have been using one for a while but offered little information about his equipment and test method beyond saying it was "a great performer" and "worth every penny". They must have been in direct contact with AK to express their interest and been offered early samples.

Thank you for the clarification on John Crabbe's article - my conflation of the effect of stylus reaction force inducing vibrations in the disc with "MC" was based on a more recent article in HFNRR (within the last 10 years!) which quoted the original article and was discussing the audiophile shift in the late 70s and 80s to lower compliance MC away from the high compliance MMs that had been the focus of the likes of Shure and Stanton. I take your point that the transducer principle is not really the issue.

I agree that the change in arm height is a likely reason for the apparent preference for the F7 - 6mm is a significant change and would shift the rake angle by an order of 1 degree (for a typical 9" effective length and typical offset). Given that the Houdini is compressible, as I have mentioned in other posts on the subject, azimuth is quite likely to have been changed simply through screw torque differences in mounting. Additionally, the typical errors in setting offset (with respect to the horizontal bearing offset) and typical errors in overhang result in a sensitivity of azimuth to arm height setting. A further complication is that whilst it is assumed that the horizontal bearing of the arm is going to be perfectly parallel to the plinth and platter, this is often not the case given the errors in the platter hole which can cause the platter to precess as it rotates (very common with many turntables), some arm height mechanisms (eg the Technics helicoid), manufacturing tolerance of bearings and plinth warps.....all of which result in a continuous shift in azimuth across the modulation envelope as well as the stylus describing an arc that is not circular in nature!
I strongly doubt that these factors would have been taken into account by the average user. Then again, it wouldn't matter to Funk - if the customer believes he hears a positive difference then the product existence and price is justified!

I was implying that the elliptical tip would be far more tolerant of setup - the "Houdini'd" F7 may well have sounded better than the "Houdini'd" Kontrapunkt for exactly that reason. However, it would be fallacious (of said user) to draw the conclusion that the F7 was a better cartridge on the basis that the Houdini did not provide a similar improvement to the Kontrapunkt
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=35989.0

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Funk firm Houdinin

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