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Adding subs

74.88.154.158
Posted on September 17, 2020 at 16:56:21
xaudiomanx
Audiophile

Posts: 3647
Joined: August 16, 2004
 I was thinking of using a pair of subs in my system. I am not a favorite of them but I know they do have their place in audio. My only concern is that I am wasting my time and money in vinyl playback. Just how low can vinyl play down to? I know CD plays down low. I get good deep bass now but I was wondering if I can do better.

Any opinions are well appreciated.

Thanks!

 

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RE: Adding subs, posted on September 17, 2020 at 19:51:06
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 Vinyl can play as low as you can hear. At any rate, my Sota Millennia Vacuum turntable with SME V tonearm and Audio Technica ART7 phono cartridge produces very deep and powerful bass.

I use a pair of Rythmik Servo Subs and they are superb. They're some of the best subwoofer values you'll every find. I wouldn't trade them for any other subwoofer I know of. Here's my system:



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What are you using for main speakers?, posted on September 17, 2020 at 20:14:33
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10912
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 I agree with John that vinyl reproduction can give you very satisfying and realistic deep bass response, but do you necessarily need subwoofers to make you happy? On the other hand, if you are mainly digital, you can justify subs just on that basis. Be aware that incorporating subs into your listening space can create problems with feedback to the turntable, if not done wisely.

 

RE: Adding subs, posted on September 17, 2020 at 21:19:40
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 Unless you are keen on pipe organ music or certain recordings of electronica, you won't find many recordings with significant musical content below 30Hz. Even pop/club 12"s don't have much below 30Hz - the mastering typically boosts the output around 40 to 80Hz to give a punchy full bottom end. The LF resonance of the cartridge/arm modulates the groove signal and the cartridge response typically rises below around 23Hz which is what gives vinyl the fuller bottom end.

Depending on your current speakers, tuning the crossover and output level is crucial to achieving good results - a well tuned sub should not be discernible as part of the system; it merely extends the range. You are well advised to get a rumble filter otherwise the subwoofer will be wasting large amounts of power to reproduce the rumble spectrum rather than actual signal information.
Vinyl records are mastered to avoid out of phase bass information to improve tracking - in other words, the bass is in mono so the main practical reason to use more than one sub is because you want to increase the output headroom and split the load if you want to go very loud if your satellites are small and have a rapidly decreasing output below 80 to 100Hz. Depending on the room, it is generally not advised to use 2 subwoofers positioned next to the main speakers on the same side of a room since room modes will start to cause problems with the response so you need to experiment with placement to avoid the exciting eigentones. Alternatives are to position one at the front and the other at the back of the listening room (not facing each other but offset from the opposite side) to even out the low end response and avoid room boom. Immediately to the sides (again offset from each other) with your main speakers at the front is another alternative. There are plenty of links that advise on the use of 2 subs, but you might well find that one is quite sufficient and far easier to tune position for with the additional benefit that it will not degrade the stereo image for the reasons given earlier if your speakers have a reasonable low end performance.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: What are you using for main speakers?, posted on September 17, 2020 at 21:36:14
John Elison
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Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 Rythmik Servo Subs have rumble filters that can be switched in or out. I rarely use them in my system because my turntable's vacuum platter flattens my records thereby attenuating the effects of the arm/cartridge resonance. However, if you notice subwoofer pumping you can switch in the rumble filters to eliminate pumping.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: Adding subs, posted on September 18, 2020 at 07:51:35
John-from Seattle
Audiophile

Posts: 1154
Location: Tacoma
Joined: November 13, 1999
 First off, what is the rest of your system as I don't see it listed? If you aren't getting much bass with vinyl, then something's either wrong, or your trawling the low end of the vinyl playback spectrum with cart, phono stage and table, then it'll lack true deep bass. If you are running better stuff, then somethings not right with setup. I think CD gives you "more" bass by not needing to attenuate much, if at all during mastering and many older recordings prior to the 70's lacked bass due to the technology of the day and its capabilities.

A good table can get you surprisingly low in the bass department when setup right. I run a Rega P6 and with a Grado Prestige Green 1 and a good phono stage, the Muffsy PP4, which is a wide bandwidth phono stage and thus does not exhibit the bloat in the upper/mid bass that can give a false sense of bass when it really does not go down all that deep.

I also run vintage ADS 3 way bookshelves and are acoustic suspension, not ported and the bass is tight, a tad lean, but deep and authoritative, especially on later recordings.

 

RE: Adding subs, posted on September 18, 2020 at 12:52:16
bill_stevenson@bellsouth.net
Audiophile

Posts: 418
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Joined: January 6, 2015
 I wish there was an adequate answer to this question. It is one that I have pondered for years. Some of the new re-issues from companies such as Blue Note, for example the Tone Poet series, have been remastered and have serious bass compared to the original issues. Older records were often equalized and cut to avoid having the crappy tone arms found on record changers jump right out of the grooves. New records and better reissues probably would benefit from a sub. I was thinking about trying one of the new REL 212/SX units, but it is a serious commitment if it doesn't add anything. If I do it, I would start with one, add a second one only if necessary.

 

RE: Adding subs/ my sub, posted on September 18, 2020 at 14:28:26
escapist
Audiophile

Posts: 108
Joined: October 24, 2013
 My early Beatles (Capitol) Lps and a Creedence Clearwater (Fantasy) Lp have weak bass. Simon & Garfunkel (Columbia) and Bach organ fugue (Command records) have a lot of bass. All from the 60's but uneven LP product.

I'm listening with one sub and two small satellite speakers. I'm happy with the speakers - they are Cambridge Soundworks circa 1990's. I have the sub set beside and close to the sofa while the two small speakers are in front. I'm used to my set up - wouldn't notice bass sounds coming from the side and not from the front. Other listeners might dislike that. because the speakers came as the three, the speaker crossovers were incorporated. I do remember a that a speaker review recommended high watt - 100W - amplifier/receiver to power those soundworks speakers.

 

RE: Adding subs, posted on September 19, 2020 at 01:35:30
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 You can save a lot of money by purchasing a pair of Rythmik Servo Subs as I did. Although they might not be as good a REL subwoofers, they are still exceptional performers and they will tell you whether you can benefit from subwoofers. There's no question in my mind that Rythmik Servo Subs provide the best bang-for-the-buck in subwoofers. If you're impressed with Rythmik Servo Subs, you can always upgrade to REL subwoofers in the future if you feel the need. All I can say is that my speakers definitely benefited from adding a pair of Rythmik Servo Subs and I feel absolutely no need for anything better.


 

RE: Adding subs, posted on September 20, 2020 at 11:43:43
bill_stevenson@bellsouth.net
Audiophile

Posts: 418
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Joined: January 6, 2015
 Hi John,

It is good to hear from you. I hope all is well. I have a dealer that will loan me whatever I am interested it, no strings attached. He is a REL dealer. Have you experimented with one vs. two subs? Thoughts?

Bill

 

RE: Adding subs, posted on September 20, 2020 at 12:51:43
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 Hi Bill,

I used to own a pair of Cambridge Soundworks 12" acoustic suspension subwoofers. One was powered and the other was a slave so they operated in mono. Here's a picture of them in a different listening room when I had Paradigm satellites and I placed them on top of the Cambridge Soundworks subwoofers.


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Here's a picture in my current house with the subwoofers placed against the wall behind my listening chair so they acted as a single subwoofer located at the same distance from my head as the main speakers in front. They sounded very good in this configuration but I wanted to try stereo subwoofers and I also wanted to try the Rythmik subwoofers because of their servo system, which made a world of difference.


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The Rythmik Servo Subs pictured below just sounded much better than the Cambridge Soundworks subs, primarily as a result of their servo system. The bass became much tighter and deeper. The Rythmik Servo Subs were just a whole lot better sounding, not because of stereo but because of their improved sound quality. However, I would never go back to a single subwoofer now that I have the pair. They just sound so good to me.


 

RE: best BFB i have done, posted on September 20, 2020 at 14:07:09
jormungand
Audiophile

Posts: 29
Location: Hamilton
Joined: January 11, 2003



I have a pair of REL G2 subs in my system which already has "good" bass, and IMHO it is the best upgrade or tweak to my system i have done. My rig is all analog.
Yes you get prodigious bass, but i wanted deep, tight, well controlled bass that sounded like an instrument not a movie effect and got it with the pair. What I didn't expect was much better and larger soundstage, clarity in treble and midrange. It did take a lot of listening for positioning and what you want out of bass may be different than me. I hear now, electric bass and double bass like its in the music, rhythm you can follow. In other systems that are analogue or digital i cannot hear the bass instruments like its part of the music. The subs really have impressed me. With the sub pairs you get flesh, texture and tightness, sounds contradictory.
Bear in mind: i am fortunate enough to have turntable and phono in a seperate room, the energy from two subs can be huge, that the room is the main player with subs so your solution may be different, that what you want out "your ideal" may be different so you hav to audition if you can.

 

Where are they in the picture? nt, posted on September 21, 2020 at 00:03:29
alaskahiatt
Audiophile

Posts: 7508
Joined: December 9, 2000
Contributor
  Since: November 1, 2005
 nt

 

RE: Where are they in the picture? nt, posted on September 21, 2020 at 00:21:23
jormungand
Audiophile

Posts: 29
Location: Hamilton
Joined: January 11, 2003



Yellow arrow, both sides

 

Thoughts on subs, posted on September 21, 2020 at 07:28:02
Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1884
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
  Since: December 14, 2012
 If you're getting good deep bass, you don't need a sub.

LPs *can* go low, and digital often does. That said, the vast majority of recordings have little below the mid 40's. I have a sub paired with Tannoys with a steep crossover at 45 Hz, and it's rarely called in to contribute. When it does, it makes a big difference.

If your system does reproduce the bottom end well, the KAB rumble filter is a must. It mono's everything below 140 Hz and has an 18 dB/octave high-pass filter at 20 Hz.

If your bass driver is in a sealed/acoustic suspension enclosure, mating a sub to it takes some patience, as the 6 dB/octave rolloff means there will be a relatively large range of overlap.

Cheers,
WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

Deep bass..., posted on September 21, 2020 at 08:19:32
EdAInWestOC
Audiophile

Posts: 6828
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Joined: December 18, 2003
 Takes up added space when cutting the lacquer. The RIAA pre-emphasis helps by lowering the amount of bass being mastered but it is still a consideration.

If the playing length is long enough the bass may have to be decreased to compensate for playing time to be mastered.

It is the nature of the beast. Most music does not have appreciable high frequency content. The RIAA boosts high frequencies while decreasing bass frequencies. This helped the playing time issue but if the recording has enough bass content it is still an issue.

Modern re-issues have changed the playing field. There are many re-issues that span multiple LPs when the original was issued on a single disc. This arrangement allows the mastering engineer extras space to cut the lacquer with the fully intended amount of bass and also allows for more dynamic headroom.

Some of these multi-disc reissues are cut at 45RPM but there are some that are mastered at 33RPM and still take up 2 LPs. IIRC the amount of time on one side of a 33RPM mastered disc is about 17 minutes. If the playing time exceeds that time, the mastering engineer must employ bass reduction and/or compression to fit the content onto a single LP.

That is bass as I understand it on a LP. It can be very powerful but it depends on the master tape and the playing time to be mastered on the lacquer. There is no reason why a LP cannot reproduce deep bass. It just takes up added space and that could be a consideration.

Ed
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof

 

RE: Adding subs, posted on September 21, 2020 at 10:59:44
bill_stevenson@bellsouth.net
Audiophile

Posts: 418
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Joined: January 6, 2015
 Thanks for your response. My zero gravity chair is red. LOL!

 

Ah thanks. I forgot to take my dark glasses off. :^). nt, posted on September 21, 2020 at 11:59:41
alaskahiatt
Audiophile

Posts: 7508
Joined: December 9, 2000
Contributor
  Since: November 1, 2005
 nt

 

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