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Need someone with knowledge of ultrasonic cleaners and transducers.

209.193.49.98

Posted on August 13, 2020 at 00:06:13
alaskahiatt
Audiophile

Posts: 7483
Joined: December 9, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
November 1, 2005
In 1998 in Taipei, Taiwan, I purchased an early ultrasonic cleaner specifically designed for records(see pic below). I used it only a couple times, then it sat in my basement for about 18 years.

Yesterday, I dug it out to see if it would clean what appeared to be a couple very small paint deposits on a record. The deposits did not respond to surfactants, alcohol, or enzymes that I normally use with my Nitty Gritty 3.0 vacuum machine in Alaska.

When I set up my ancient Taiwanese ultrasonic machine, the unit had the usual vibrating noise I was used to. However, there was an additional clacking type sound. After a few minutes of use, a high pitch sound began that continued to get worse. It sounded like something imminent was about to happen, so I shut down the unit. This was very disappointing, as I have rarely used the machine.

I received no information about the machine from the manufacturer, and I didn't really know what to ask that long ago. The only specification known is 110V and 2 amps. The transducer frequency is unknown. The Taiwanese manufacturer only made a few of these record cleaning machines, as their primary products were large, industrial, ultrasonic units.

When I opened up the unit, the circuit boards all looked good(se pics), but I noticed one of the piezoelectric transducers was cracked. This machine has never been dropped and has sat unused for at least 18 years.

Anyway, I sure would like to resurrect this ultrasonic cleaner, and the transducers are very cheap. I would like to purchase a similar looking 40kHz transducer, but I don't know how to match the new transducers with the circuits now in the machine. It may be very difficult to even remove the bad transducer, and I don't know what adhesives are best for attaching the new transducer.

I cannot think of any local businesses that could handle it either. The transducers are so cheap, that I would like to get it repaired. As you can see, the unit is totally manual, but it did a good job years ago. Right now, it is just a museum piece for a record cleaning museum.





























 

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RE: Need someone with knowledge of ultrasonic cleaners and transducers., posted on August 13, 2020 at 07:11:42
alc777
Audiophile

Posts: 289
Location: Taipei.tw
Joined: June 20, 2009
I am in Taipei and I will call the company to see what they can do for an 18-year-old machine in Alaska. As far as I' ve heard, bonding the transducer to the tank wall is a professional job, not likely be done by general users. This is the bad news.

The good news is, I found their website and it seems that your model is still in production. Hang on, I'll let you know what I can come up with.

 

The voltage in Taiwan is 110. , posted on August 13, 2020 at 07:35:05
Do you think that operating the cleaner at typical US voltages of 120-125 volts could have caused stress on the element? And is it possible that, once fixed, the failure could occur again?

 

Fantastic! Thank you very much. Wish I knew the operating frequency., posted on August 13, 2020 at 09:39:32
alaskahiatt
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Posts: 7483
Joined: December 9, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
November 1, 2005

I wonder if viridian is correct in that the US 120V is too much for the Taiwan 110 V. Maybe too high of a frequency is generated causing the ceramic transducer to rupture. I measured 115V at my house. Maybe the SU company will be able to answer this question.

I understand the possibility of not being able to remove and replace the transducers at home.

I was thinking of installing a motor someday, and I see the company has now done that.

 

Good question. I measured 115V at my house. Maybe alc777, posted on August 13, 2020 at 11:33:08
alaskahiatt
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Posts: 7483
Joined: December 9, 2000
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  Since:
November 1, 2005
will be able to ask this question of the manufacturer in Taiwan. I hope this will not be the problem, as I would not know what to change in the frequency generators to lower the frequency.

 

That's just over 4%. One would think that would be just fine., posted on August 13, 2020 at 11:57:15
And the frequency is not the issue, as it is 60 cycles in both places. If the manufacturer suggests lower voltage, the less expensive way is a bucking transformer, or for a little more, a variac, either rated at an amperage greater than what the cleaner is rated at. But good luck, and let's hope that these will not be necessary.

 

I wasn't clear on the frequency. The frequency I am referring to, posted on August 13, 2020 at 15:23:42
alaskahiatt
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Joined: December 9, 2000
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  Since:
November 1, 2005
is the frequency produced by the frequency generators in the machine. That frequency is sent to the ceramic transducer on the side of my tank.

I also read that our US nominal voltage is allowed a range of +/- 6%, so your calculation of 4% should be fine.

 

Dohhhh, sorry, Im not the sharpest pencil in the box. nt, posted on August 13, 2020 at 16:12:15
Nt

 

RE: Need someone with knowledge of ultrasonic cleaners and transducers., posted on August 16, 2020 at 06:06:17
Ogsarg
Audiophile

Posts: 637
Location: Central Coast, CA
Joined: October 19, 2004
There are probably places that would bond new transducers on the tank and match them to the amplifier but it would likely cost more than what you paid for it.

Maybe pick up a cheap ultrasonic off ebay or ali express, etc. and adapt your record holder on to it.

From the pictures, the piezos don't look like they are of high quality.

 

RE: Good question. I measured 115V at my house. Maybe alc777, posted on August 16, 2020 at 07:25:07
alc777
Audiophile

Posts: 289
Location: Taipei.tw
Joined: June 20, 2009
The voltage is not a problem, we have the same voltage as the States. My home electric outlet also reads 115V usually.

I called the company, the girl answered the phone is quite helpful. She told me the transducer works at 43Khz. But the important thing is, they sent the ultrasonic tank assembly job to Delta, a company specialized in ultrasonic cleaning machines. They don't do the transducer bonding stuff in house so she just does not know about it.

So I called Delta, the girl there asked me to leave my phone number and said the tech guy will call back. so far I have not received the return call yet. I'll make another call on Monday to see if I can get hold of the tech guy and have more info about that.

From what I have gathered, the chance of repairing the unit by end user is somewhat remote, if ultrasonic cleaning is not your frequent procedure of disc cleaning, I might suggest that just leave that machine alone.

I have a more fancy designed ultrasonic cleaning machine for many years, I think it may well be the first double-side vacuum suction ultrasonic cleaning machine designed specially for vinyl cleaning. It was designed and made here in Taiwan. I've doing some experiments with it to try to formulate a good regimen for disc cleaning throughout these years, but the latest methodology that I'm using is without the ultrasonic cleaning. I don't see ultrasonic cleaning got me a better cleaned disc when compared to using chemical solutions and brushes and microfiber cloth.

Many people use quietness as the first criteria for disc cleaning, well, I'd put "no sonic degradation" before that. Vigorous cleaning will undoubtedly give me a quieter disc but sometimes also leaves me with a duller-sounding one, I'm more cautious to that.

I do still have a plan to try out the higher frequency (60-80Khz) ones to see if they can be more help but so far my ultrasonic is just sit there without using.

 

Thanks for the ideas, and I remember your previous good posts , posted on August 16, 2020 at 12:27:41
alaskahiatt
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Posts: 7483
Joined: December 9, 2000
Contributor
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November 1, 2005
concerning ultrasonic cleaners and theory.

I agree that the cost is now sounding prohibitive after reading the posts by alc777. I actually paid $400 for this unit 18 years ago when I was still working. I couldn't afford that now in retirement. I just hate throwing machines away of any kind, even grass trimmers.

I have a good ultrasonic setup(see pics for response to alc777) at my other location in Washington State, but this Taiwanese machine is all I have in Alaska. In Alaska, I also use my Nitty Gritty 3.0 vacuum machine.

I also agree that the transducers on the Taiwanese machine look inadequate for long term reliability.

 

You have been super helpful! It does sound like the transducer bonding, posted on August 16, 2020 at 13:03:22
alaskahiatt
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Posts: 7483
Joined: December 9, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
November 1, 2005

will be impossible for a non-industrial person. The return phone call will be interesting.

As I stated in a post above, I hate to dispose of machines, especially this stainless ultrasonic machine designed especially for phonograph records. 18 years ago, I had never seen anything like it. However, in Taipei at the same time, I had seen the prototype machine pictured below. It sounds similar to the description of your two sided vacuum/ultrasonic machine. It was located on the second floor of the electronics center at the intersection of Hsining and Luoyang streets.

I do have a good ultrasonic setup at my other location in the state of Washington. See the picture below as well.

Thanks again for everything. Bill.









 

RE: You have been super helpful! It does sound like the transducer bonding, posted on August 16, 2020 at 17:29:14
alc777
Audiophile

Posts: 289
Location: Taipei.tw
Joined: June 20, 2009
No problem, will keep you posted.

Yes, Mine is the one with the green LEDs. The construction is not so sturdy but the man who made these machines keeps running free maintenance island-wide, including free changing of the sucking pads. No doubt about his devotion to these machines.

 

RE: Got his answer., posted on August 16, 2020 at 20:40:18
alc777
Audiophile

Posts: 289
Location: Taipei.tw
Joined: June 20, 2009
The tech guy says that there are certain things that needs experience to bond the transducer plate to the tank, not impossible for end user but if something went wrong, the plate is easily to break again. He did not specify which step needs extra caution though.

First of all, one needs to remove the old plate, this is probably the most laborious part of the work. Sand smooth, cleaned and ready for the new one. He also mentioned that one has to be sure that the electronic part is fully working. Using ab glue, heat gun to soften it a bit and apply the insulation, then the plate. I don't know exactly what he is talking about, just repeating his words here. I guess the flatness of the bonding site and full contact of the plate with the tank are the important things to watch for. Good luck!

 

Many, many, thanks. I can get the AB glue, but I am not sure , posted on August 16, 2020 at 21:42:40
alaskahiatt
Audiophile

Posts: 7483
Joined: December 9, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
November 1, 2005
what is meant by the insulation. And yes, I can imagine removing the old glue will be fun.

If the electronics are for a frequency of 43KHz, then I will try to find a close ceramic transducer.

Well, this will get me started, and I am very thankful. I certainly enjoyed my time in Taipei while I walked or used the buses to visit all the hifi and electronic stores. My closest acquaintance in Taipei was Mr. Rudy Tu, who owned Sincere Electric Company at No. 61 Sec. 1 Ming Chuan East Road. I believe he retired and moved close by at No.63 Sec.1 9F Ming Chuan East Road. He is the person who drove me to the ultrasonics factory.

 

RE: what is meant by the insulation, posted on August 16, 2020 at 21:52:44
alc777
Audiophile

Posts: 289
Location: Taipei.tw
Joined: June 20, 2009
I don't know exactly what it is either, I can only guess that there is an insulation sheet that comes with the transducer plate to prevent electrical hazard if things go wrong.

Sincere was a very old audio shop, I know where it was but never been there before.

No problem for the phone calls, it's what a forum meant to be.

 

My last visit to Taipei was March 2002, and Mr.Tu had already, posted on August 17, 2020 at 01:05:34
alaskahiatt
Audiophile

Posts: 7483
Joined: December 9, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
November 1, 2005
closed his business. I once tried to help him fix a customer's Forte amplifier that caught fire, but Forte would not cooperate with me. I was able to purchase a large container of a spice in Alaska that he wanted, but no help with hifi. Mr. Tu always had music playing on his AR-XA turntable, but I forget the amplifier and speakers. He mostly serviced equipment he had previously sold and had very little new things for sale. There was a great CD store close to him that sold audiophile quality CDs.

I just realized that the ceramic transducer must be insulated from the stainless steel to prevent a short between the bottom of the transducer and the stainless steel wall. I don't think the transducers sold online provide an insulating material. That's something that I may still have to research and may need that one last answer from the company in Taipei. I believe the insulating materIal must be rigid instead of flexible.

I have researched how to remove the old transducer, and I feel confident that I can do it.



I also purchased this excellent vacuum cleaning machine in Taipei at a store near Zhongxiao street and Luoyang street.



 

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