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OK--so I ordered a phono-stage and cart...

73.236.194.50
Posted on August 5, 2020 at 05:55:46
dark_dave56
Audiophile

Posts: 8387
Location: Ohio
Joined: August 29, 2019
 ...since everyone "poo-poo'd" my current phono stage (that I happen to like, but was planning on swapping anyways), I ordered a Pro-ject Tube Box DS2 and Power Box DS2 (linear power supply). I have tons of 12AX7 tubes, so I am set for some rolling.

Went with the Dynavector xx-2MKII cart--I have two 23K-RS, and like them, so I'll give this a shot.

Again, this is working with/on a SOTA Sapphire w/SME 309 arm.

Thoughts?


"And today is for sale and it's all you can afford. Buy your own admission. The whole things got you bored. Well the Lord chooses the good ones, and the bad ones use the Lord"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP

 

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Its a decent phono preamp..., posted on August 5, 2020 at 06:23:48
EdAInWestOC
Audiophile

Posts: 6828
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Joined: December 18, 2003
 What made you decide on the Project DS2? It has features that most < 1K phono preamps do not have but we usually do not buy phono preamps based on features. Its all about the sound.

I hope you like the DS2 but what bothers me is the lack of reviews for this model. I looked around and I could find one professional review on the DS2 and this model has been around for over 2 years now.

You cannot draw any conclusions on that but it makes me wonder why.

Best of luck and I hope you find a real sleeper with the DS2. From your prior post I assumed you were in the market for components in a more high end of the spectrum.

IIRC you posted about cartridges up to $3k and this preamp is not a device I would pair a $3k cartridge with. I am sure it performs well but the fidelity from a cartridge in the $3k price point requires a phono preamp in a different category.

Whatever you choose I hope it works for you,
Ed
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof

 

What I'm curious about..., posted on August 5, 2020 at 07:02:46
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
 ...is how the Pro-ject DS2 is powering two 12AX7s with only 18 VDC input. According to GE and Sylvania tube data sheets, a typical plate voltage for the 12AX7 is 250 VDC.

 

I guess (like everything else) it's all a matter of "relativity"..., posted on August 5, 2020 at 07:53:54
dark_dave56
Audiophile

Posts: 8387
Location: Ohio
Joined: August 29, 2019
 ...I like having "nicer" gear, but not to the ultimate extremes. I have multiple systems, and my "best" one sees the least use, because it is in it's own dedicated room--with no other distractions.

I listen mainly to vinyl (~3000 albums), but do play CDs, digitally stream, and still mess with tape (a little)--mainly rock/blues/alt/prog, and really appreciate a lot of older live recordings that (by contemporary standards) have the sound quality of a guy in the audience holding up an iPhone. The energy of the performance is there, but the recording quality--not so much.

Humble Pie~Live at the Fillmore doesn't sound much better on my SOTA or LP12 running through an ARC pre, Krell amp, and Infinity IRS-Vs (or Tekton DIs) than it does on my Dual CS5000, Yammie CR3020, and original JBL L100's (or 4312Cs).

Some recordings do, but some just don't. Some are so "technically flawed" that a highly-resolving system can detract from the music--if that makes sense. Add to that, the nature of my collection--some of which is meticulously curated, but others being the best or only copy I could find, or happened upon when acquiring entire collections of unknown history. Some stuff is so rare that you have to live with what you can find, or what you can live with paying for. I'm sure you "know the drill".

As with any new component, this cart and phono-stage are an "experiment"--so I'll try them and evaluate. If they don't work out, I'll pass them along. It's just so hard to actually audition anything these days due to lack of available dealers, and the number of companies going to direct-sales (with no dealer-network).


"And today is for sale and it's all you can afford. Buy your own admission. The whole things got you bored. Well the Lord chooses the good ones, and the bad ones use the Lord"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP

 

RE: OK--so I ordered a phono-stage and cart..., posted on August 5, 2020 at 08:06:36
billo
Audiophile

Posts: 324
Joined: June 7, 2002
 That cartridge deserves a great phono pre with a bit more gain.

 

RE: OK--so I ordered a phono-stage and cart..., posted on August 5, 2020 at 08:24:33
dean_martin
Audiophile

Posts: 1747
Location: lower alabama
Joined: January 26, 2006
 I'd like to hear your comments on the Pro-Ject Tube Box as compared to the Jolida. I have the Jolida which has performed well in mm mode with a high output mc - Ortofon MC3Turbo and in mc mode with a low output mc - AT33EV - on a Rega P5. The Jolida has boatloads of gain. (Mine is stock. My only comparisons have been to a Bellari vp129 and the built-in phono section in an older Parasound preamp.)

 

The very best, most versatile under $1K phono preamp I've heard is, posted on August 5, 2020 at 13:33:35
Opus 33 1/3
Audiophile

Posts: 4184
Location: D.C. Area
Joined: February 19, 2014
 The Musical Surroundings Phonomena II +. Almost infinite gain/loading settings and a discreet circuit designed by Michael Yee.

If I didn't have my EAR 834, I'd have another Phonomena.





Opus 33 1/3

 

RE: What I'm curious about..., posted on August 5, 2020 at 15:46:03
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 10427
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
 If what your saying is true, then the unit must have a transformer to step the voltage up to 250-300 vdc.




 

Most versatile or best sounding..., posted on August 5, 2020 at 15:54:37
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 or both?




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

you may get a various amount of, posted on August 5, 2020 at 16:10:21
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 10427
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
 poo-poo here, as we are all attached to our 'references'. Nothing is simple with anything audio except a Bose radio. And yes, I have one and it gets fantastic reception.

We generally do the best we can with the money at our disposal, but there have been plenty of regrets and mistakes. And just plain overspending.

At one time I had about 40 pristine examples of carts. I would spend an awful amount of time swapping and setting them up. One day I realized I should just pick a few and sell the rest. That's probably why I felt at home here with other loonies.

Your pick of the Dyna is popular here for good reason. If it doesn't excite then look for another preamp. Goosebumps rule.




 

And, and, and . . . /nt\, posted on August 5, 2020 at 16:30:43
Opus 33 1/3
Audiophile

Posts: 4184
Location: D.C. Area
Joined: February 19, 2014




Opus 33 1/3

 

Here's the back, from the owner's manual, posted on August 5, 2020 at 16:44:25
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007



...Which shows the 18 VDC in jack, and no AC power cord. But riddle me this, how would you manage to step-up DC voltage with a transformer?

Curious, no?

I've talked to someone who owns one, and he's very happy with the sound of it, and I hope Dark Dave56 is too. But I'd still like to know how it works.

Edited to add link to owners manual, below


 

Do I need the Linear Power Supply?, posted on August 5, 2020 at 17:01:55
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Guessing that the 'And, and, and' part won't be 'And, and, and' with just the wall wart?

Looking for something under $1000 used.








First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

I've had the first gen Phonomena II and it had a larger PS which used, posted on August 5, 2020 at 17:19:46
Opus 33 1/3
Audiophile

Posts: 4184
Location: D.C. Area
Joined: February 19, 2014
 A 5-pin DIN connector. The II + uses a simple 2-conductor barrel connector. I felt no need to upgrade the PS on either.






Opus 33 1/3

 

RE: I've had the first gen Phonomena II and it had a larger PS which used, posted on August 5, 2020 at 17:43:06
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 "The Phonomena II+ is proudly Made in the USA and provides phenomenal sound and flexibility at an affordable price. You can enjoy greater sonic performance by adding the Linear Charging Power Supply."

Should one go for the Linear Charging Power Supply.


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

curious yes, posted on August 5, 2020 at 17:44:17
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 10427
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
 I missed the vdc part, sorry about that. That is a weird one. You can run 12ax7's on, say, 50 vdc on the plates (and 12 filament) like in a Butler electric guitar preamp but it compresses things naturally and sounds good in that Marshall amp replication. But 18 plus losses?

Weird. I'd like to see a schematic.



 

I'd first listen a few weeks with the stock PS. /nt\, posted on August 5, 2020 at 18:02:20
Opus 33 1/3
Audiophile

Posts: 4184
Location: D.C. Area
Joined: February 19, 2014




Opus 33 1/3

 

GREAT suggestion..., posted on August 5, 2020 at 18:12:49
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Will do.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: curious yes, posted on August 6, 2020 at 05:50:03
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
 No need to be sorry, because I did nearly the same. You see tubes, so you think "high voltage", and the logical thought is a step-up transformer. It was only when I read the specifications and saw 18 VDC that I looked further.

I'd like to see a schematic too, and I'd also like to hear it!

 

The Phonomena is probably a better sounding preamp..., posted on August 6, 2020 at 06:17:44
EdAInWestOC
Audiophile

Posts: 6828
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Joined: December 18, 2003
 I have only heard one and it was briefly with a cartridge that I cannot recall. The Tube Box DS2 has more gain with 65db being its top gain setting.

The XX-2 has an output of 0.28mv/ch and that equates to 280mv at 60db of gain. That should be enough for LPs mastered at decent levels but LPs mastered at reduced levels would be a problem.

The 65db of gain fixes that concern but I have no idea what the DS2 sounds like at 65db. Many phono preamps sound their worst at maximum gain and the DS2 is a modestly priced preamp so there is a possibility that the 65db setting might not be its best.

I hope it turns out better than we are all speculating about but the speculation comes from years of experience. Nonetheless the DS2 could be a decent product.

I hope the poster of this thread returns to let everyone know about the DS2.

Ed
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof

 

RE: OK--so I ordered a phono-stage and cart..., posted on August 6, 2020 at 07:21:50
Joe Backer
Audiophile

Posts: 1033
Joined: July 10, 2011
 If you do end up wanting a different phono preamp to use with that great cartridge, I would consider the Chinese EAR 834P knock offs that are sold on eBay. I was told by someone at EAR that they are the exact circuit. Also 12ax7s so with tube rolling you could really dial in the sound. Search EAR 834 on eBay.

 

RE: I think you'll dig it..., posted on August 6, 2020 at 09:13:02
Waxxy
Audiophile

Posts: 2648
Joined: July 19, 2011
Contributor
  Since: November 22, 2011
 The Tube Boxes have always been under-appreciated by hifi hoi polloi because of the brand name and the lowish price.

I have the original Tube Box and I still think its one of the better phono stages I've had in my system while also being one of the cheapest.

Other folks will have their own favourites but give the Pro-Ject a chance and I think you will be impressed.



 

The Phomenas I've had were dead quiet with my Dyna 20XL., posted on August 6, 2020 at 09:52:34
Opus 33 1/3
Audiophile

Posts: 4184
Location: D.C. Area
Joined: February 19, 2014
 IIRC, 60 dB gain and 40 Ohm load sounded best to me. I once e-mailed MS with a question and Michael Yee, the designer, replied the same day.





Opus 33 1/3

 

You shouldn't care, posted on August 6, 2020 at 15:33:36
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 ..what other people think about your equipment! If you like the sound, then that is all that matters. It is all about system synergy so what one person thinks is the dog's bollocks might sound terrible to someone else.

Price doesn't necessarily equate with quality.

You can take a well-designed budget phono stage and transform it if you are into electronics and know what you are doing. Much of the "cost" in the high-end is partly in the casework/tooling due to the small volumes and the effort to evaluate and match components in the design.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: OK--so I ordered a phono-stage and cart..., posted on August 7, 2020 at 15:15:50
classicalltheway
Audiophile

Posts: 308
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Joined: May 13, 2005
 I love my DS2, I got an aftermarket LPS for it as well. Tubes have a large impact even though they are only used in the output stage.

I currently like Bugle Boys.

Rob

 

RE: OK--so I ordered a phono-stage and cart..., posted on August 7, 2020 at 15:20:55
classicalltheway
Audiophile

Posts: 308
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Joined: May 13, 2005
 I have the exact Chinese EAR 834P knock off you mention, along with the Tube Box DS.

Tube rolling with the Ear is a lot of fun. No matter which ones I used, the Project beats it. I have not changed the rectifier tube yet because I'm waiting for a converter. Once I have that, I can make my final observations.

Rob

 

RE: I think you'll dig it..., posted on August 7, 2020 at 16:26:48
py272
Audiophile

Posts: 140
Location: Hawaii
Joined: February 20, 2007
 Waxxy,

I also have this original tubebox as yours however mines is a SE model. Mines looks exactly like yours but I am not sure what is the difference. I have no complaints as to its sound (I have not been able to compare it to other phone stages) however I have been tempted to change to a phonomena.

So I was wondering what other phono stages you have compared against your tube box. I am hoping you may have experience with a phonomena and can provide some insight into whether it would be an upgrade.

Patrick

 

RE: OK--so I ordered a phono-stage and cart..., posted on August 8, 2020 at 07:30:10
Waxxy
Audiophile

Posts: 2648
Joined: July 19, 2011
Contributor
  Since: November 22, 2011
 "Tubes have a large impact even though they are only used in the output stage"...

This is a common misconception, that the tubes in the Tube Box are used as simple buffers, to add a bit of tubey sound after all the hard work is accomplished by the solid state circuit. This is simply incorrect.

The original Tube Box used tubes in the amplification stage and the latest does also...quote from a review of the most recent unit....

"The Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 phono preamplifier has two 12AX7 dual triodes. It is designed with the first triode as the input stage and is cascaded with a 2SK170 J-FET transistor. The gain of this stage is about 70. The second triode is used as a classic gain stage biased into pure class A."

This is why tubes / valves have such a large impact on the sound.

 

RE: I think you'll dig it..., posted on August 8, 2020 at 07:42:48
Waxxy
Audiophile

Posts: 2648
Joined: July 19, 2011
Contributor
  Since: November 22, 2011
 As far as I am aware there is no difference between what I have, and the SE. That designation was added after the second lower priced Tube Box was released, perhaps to differentiate between the two.

I haven't heard the Phenomena, so can't directly compare but my experience tells me that your preference would come down to taste as opposed to actual qualitative differences.

I bought the Tube Box and shortly thereafter discovered online shopping for used equipment. Ive had half a dozen high quality phono stages through my system since then. In no particular order...

Dynavector P75
Moon LP-5.3
Eastern Electric Minimax
47 Labs Phonocube
Manely Chinook
Gram Slee ERA Gold
Cyrus Phono Signature

These were all great phono stages, but each one has a slightly different overall presentation, and I believe personal preference along with system matching will ultimately lead one to pick a "winner".

All the above are now sold save for the Cyrus and the Tube Box.

 

RE: OK--so I ordered a phono-stage and cart..., posted on August 8, 2020 at 16:25:54
classicalltheway
Audiophile

Posts: 308
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Joined: May 13, 2005
 Wow, thank you for the information.

 

RE: I think you'll dig it..., posted on August 12, 2020 at 13:16:39
py272
Audiophile

Posts: 140
Location: Hawaii
Joined: February 20, 2007
 Thanks for the reply and good to hear the performance of the tube box is more than decent as you have compared it to some well regarded units. Have you had a chance to experiment with other tubes? If so, I would appreciate your recommendations.

Patrick

 

RE: What I'm curious about..., posted on August 17, 2020 at 11:05:25
Flatwound
Audiophile

Posts: 58
Location: Georgia
Joined: January 27, 2011
 My hagerman cornet 3 uses 12ax7 and 12au7 tubes and runs off of a wall wart psu. According to their website, the Cornet employs a converter running at 50mhz to generate 210 vdc to supply the plate voltage to the tubes. You can read about it and peruse the schematic on their website.
BTW, the Cornet 3 is a fine little phono pre, although I prefer my simaudio moon lp3.

 

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