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Help SRA related

65.92.27.3
Posted on June 25, 2017 at 19:53:55
Whitesnake
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Joined: January 21, 2002



Hi fellow inmates,

Here's the deal. I've been obsessing about this thing and couldn't get a straight head on this.

Following the online procedure and particularly the M Fremer How to Use a USB Digital Microscope page, you would think with a microscope this thing will be a walk in the park. well it's not and there are still too many variables to account for.

If i'm doing everything right my readings are roughly between 90.35 and 91.15 degree but i'm ending up with an arm way tilted forward which I can live with except:
-the cart is a DV XX2 MKII riding on a Moerch DP6. the tilt is awkward but keep worrying about the mechanics of the whole thing.
-the band 6 and 7 for Bias setting on the HFNR record are good. the band 8 buzz on both channel but the needle skip across the band 9. which didn't before when the arm was level.
-As for the sound, well it's very clean but nothing too exciting. I also found out that on some hot records where i heard sibilance before, they now play beautifully.

So before I make additional changes can someone confirm if my readings of 90 to 91 degree SRA make sense.

Thanks

 

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    ...
I calculated 90.4-degrees..., posted on June 25, 2017 at 21:17:48
John Elison
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Location: Central Kentucky
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Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 I constructed a triangle and used the Law of Cosines to calculate the angle at the stylus. I calculated SRA to be approximately 90.4-degrees.


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RE: I calculated 90.4-degrees..., posted on June 26, 2017 at 07:14:38
Whitesnake
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Joined: January 21, 2002






So it's safe to say that my calculations are close enough which is not really good because the arm is as high as it gets and no more room left for adjustments. unless i shim the headshell side...?

here's what the whole thing looks like

Thanks John!

 

Just checking, but..., posted on June 26, 2017 at 07:36:08
tketcham
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  Since: October 1, 2005
 Hi, Whitesnake,

Just checking the obvious, but are you sure the tracking force is correct?

Regards,
Tom

PS: Nice 'table. '-) I see you leave the spring towers exposed. I prefer the look of the towers that way myself.

 

RE: Help SRA related, posted on June 26, 2017 at 07:37:41
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 I suggest you ditch the microscope, Fremer notwithstanding.

It's time to learn to set SRA by ear, rather than by eye. It's really the only way to get it right, and confirm that it is right. Do some research, find an appropriate recording, and listen. People have been doing it correctly this way for decades.

A microscope may get you close, and it may not as you need to align the rake and not the length of the stylus, and the two are often not parallel. The rake may be hard to see.

 

Wow, surprised that allows a good result., posted on June 26, 2017 at 09:45:32
Rick W
 I have a UP-4 and have never set my arm tilting so much. Maybe its due to differences in carts, but none of my mm's would sound good with such a downward tilt. Seems pretty extreme in the pic.

 

RE: Just checking, but..., posted on June 26, 2017 at 10:04:13
Whitesnake
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Joined: January 21, 2002
 Hi Tom,

yes I'm tracking at 2gr validated by a digital scale. As u see the bug of doubting everything I know is itching again lol.

 

RE: Wow, surprised that allows a good result., posted on June 26, 2017 at 10:12:27
Whitesnake
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Joined: January 21, 2002
 Hi Rick,

well it is extreme and that's what got me doubting if i was measuring right. To be honest the SRA is as close as I get but I keep telling myself this can't be right...

 

RE: Help SRA related, posted on June 26, 2017 at 10:42:36
Whitesnake
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Joined: January 21, 2002
 well long time ago, I acknowleged that records are in no way cut the same. while you adjust your angles to accomodate a particular recording your other recordings will suffer.

So it has always been a compromise. But every now and then a new article appears and I guess I get distracted and back on the hunt for the perfect alignment. except I now have to account for carts that are not mount the same...

As for the microscope well it make everything so clear again lol

 

RE: I calculated 90.4-degrees..., posted on June 26, 2017 at 10:55:03
Whitesnake
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Joined: January 21, 2002



Hi John,

If that's not too much to ask does this looks right to you.

I measured 92.34 SRA it's a Blackbird sitting on a RB300 slight tail down

 

RE: Help SRA related, posted on June 26, 2017 at 11:12:47
John Elison
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 > while you adjust your angles to accomodate a particular recording your other recordings will suffer.

I agree! I think you're on the right track using the microscope to set SRA to about 92-degrees. If you do that, theoretically, your SRA should be correct for most of your LPs.

Good luck,
John Elison

 

RE: I calculated 90.4-degrees..., posted on June 26, 2017 at 11:15:06
John Elison
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 I don't know what to tell you on this particular stylus. I can't accurately determine the angle of the groove contact line.

Sorry!
John Elison

 

RE: I calculated 90.4-degrees..., posted on June 26, 2017 at 11:38:21
Whitesnake
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Joined: January 21, 2002
 tricky isn't it.

thank you still :)

 

RE: I calculated 90.4-degrees..., posted on June 26, 2017 at 11:42:13
John Elison
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 I think it might be a good idea to shim the cartridge so that you can keep your tonearm level. After all, you're still not close to the desired 92-degrees and you can't go any higher at the tonearm base. Therefore, I would recommend shimming the cartridge to get SRA of 92-degrees with a level tonearm. If for some odd reason it doesn't sound good you can always remove the shims.

The pictures below show what your stylus should look like with the correct 92-degree SRA. It's also okay to go a little higher to about 92.2-degrees because the frictional pull from a spinning LP will reduce SRA slightly.

Good luck,
John Elison


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RE: Help SRA related, posted on June 26, 2017 at 13:20:31
Mel
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Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 Well, do as you wish--no problem here.

But what you say about (what are slightly) different cutting angles is just as true if you use a microscope or your ears. Greater problem IMO is the difference in record weights, thicknesses. Depending on your collection, and at least for normal (about 120 gm) records, if you do a search you will find some that have been considered typical and that others have used successfully to lock in SRA. If you adjust, by ear, to one of those you'll be at least pretty close to most others. Most of us, I think, just leave it there, and do not overly obsess.

In any event, you'll never know if it is just right unless you use your ears. Your choice. You can follow the measurement guys or the listening guys. Besides, I have blown up your stylus image and I can't see a rake. Can you? Are you assuming that it's parallel to the straight sides of the stylus, or that it bisects the angle towards the point?

You say your arm is at its limit trying to match some microscope inspired angle. Doesn't that suggest any problem to you?

 

Just FWIW, 92 degrees is an approximation. , posted on June 26, 2017 at 13:25:27
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 I run an LP mastering facility. Cutting styli last about 10 hours before needing replacement.

When replacing the stylus, the cutter head has to be removed on our system (Westerex). Its pretty obvious when you have the stylus properly mounted on the cutter head. What is less obvious is whether it will work with the same mounting and settings!

To get it right, the mastering engineer has to do a number of test cuts. The goal is not 92 degrees but instead is the quietest groove cut, which is a combination of cutting angle, stylus temperature, the way the stylus itself is machined and who knows what else! Sometimes you really have to goof off with it to get it to work and don't look at it crosseyed.

As a result, the 92 degree thing is an approximation. Its guaranteed that all LPs vary from that slightly unless they don't :) Think of a bell curve...

Have fun!

 

available shims?, posted on June 26, 2017 at 14:58:32
Whitesnake
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Joined: January 21, 2002
 Is there a source to buy such shims. so far google is not pointing any

 

RE: Help SRA related, posted on June 26, 2017 at 15:37:03
Whitesnake
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Joined: January 21, 2002
 well I can't see a rake either but i got the results by measuring the leading edge angle and then the trailing edge angle. the SRA will be obtained by starting with 180 degrees, subtracting the first measured angle, adding the second measured angle and dividing by two.

John did it differently and got the same results.



 

THAT was an amazingly rational post. Thanks! (nt), posted on June 26, 2017 at 17:24:15
Otis1
 .

 

RE: available shims?, posted on June 26, 2017 at 17:37:09
John Elison
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  Since: January 29, 2004
 I don't know of a source for shims. You might have to get creative.

 

RE: Help SRA related, posted on June 26, 2017 at 17:51:43
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3537
Joined: April 23, 2007
 Your arm looks way too high to me. I start with the arm parallel then raise/lower it by increments to achieve what sounds best to me. There really is a magic place when everything sounds right...

 

RE: Just FWIW, 92 degrees is an approximation. , posted on June 26, 2017 at 17:53:00
John Elison
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 The point of 92-degrees is to hopefully set SRA in the center of the bell curve. The only other valid approach would be to set SRA for each LP individually and that would be very inconvenient and time consuming. The method I use, which isn't scientific at all, is to simply set the cartridge level with the LP playing surface and hope for the best. ;-)

What approach for setting playback cartridge SRA do you use?

Thanks,
John Elison

 

It seems odd to me that the cartridge mount looks ...., posted on June 26, 2017 at 17:59:57
GRH
Audiophile

Posts: 444
Location: CT
Joined: March 22, 2004
 parallel to the record surface while the tonearm is at such an obvious tilt. I know nothing about your tonearm but that doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps its just an optical illusion.
Gary

 

RE: Help SRA related, posted on June 26, 2017 at 19:02:35
Mel
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Location: New York City Area
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 You can't see the rake but somehow you are certain that you know where it is in spite of the fact that there are all sorts of designs when it comes to styli--and the rake may not be where you think it is. In addition the angle of the microscope would affect image of the angle of the rake, if even you could see it. How certain are you that the scope line of sight was precisely in line with the two rakes, neither of which you could see?

The pitch of your arm looks unrealistically high and has reached the limit of its travel--but you're OK with that. Or are you?

But you write: "this can't be right"

I haven't seen a word from you that all of this pseudo-science provides a result that sounds good. And isn't good sound what this is all about?

I say, do some research and learn how to set the SRA by ear as it has been done for many decades. It's really not all that difficult. And ditch any advice about leaving it level. It's possible that level could work to optimize SRA, but it's quite unlikely.

 

RE: Help SRA related, posted on June 26, 2017 at 19:22:02
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 What did the cartridge sound like when you set the arm level i.e. you weren't lifting the arm pivot higher?

The SRA is largely determined by the mounting in the cantilever. Depending on the suspension flex, you would have to lift the back by 5.86mm more (roughly) to get the additional 1.6 degrees.
However, as I'm sure you have realised, you don't get the angular change you expect for the amount by which you lift the arm due to suspension flexure.
Don't forget that whilst you are changing SRA, you are also changing the VTA. So what you gain on one optimisation you lose on another.

Are you prepared to shim for different record thicknesses? I do and it certainly pays off. If you are not, then you are sort of wasting your effort worrying about SRA so much. Your tip has a fairly short bearing radius so is nowhere near as critical as a Replicant 100 or VdH Type 1S for example.

The 2 degree recommendation is because the effective SRA range is anywhere from 0 to 5 and the mean value is around 2 assuming a normal distribution and "typical" lacquer characteristics. As the industry expert has pointed out, the cutting angle is determined by the lacquer springback and so with a big enough collection you are bound to find records that don't sound "quite right" given the criteria used for determining cutting angle.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

approximation. , posted on June 26, 2017 at 20:57:02
hifitommy
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Posts: 15387
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
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 right on. starting at the level and adjusting when sound is tilted toward one end of the spectrum or the other. when setting up a 440ML, i adjusted the vta a bit and ameliorated the brightness.
...regards...tr

 

RE: approximation. , posted on June 26, 2017 at 22:49:45
John Elison
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Contributor
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 Now, you have to reset SRA for every LP because every LP can be different. If you think you have the best all around setting from adjusting SRA to only one LP, you're kidding yourself.

The reason for using a microscope to adjust SRA to a specific angle is to make sure SRA is set to the most common angle used by the majority of LPs. In other words, you will have the greatest probability of achieving the correct SRA for the largest number of LPs in your record collection without having to readjust SRA for each individual record.

Good luck,
John Elison

 

RE: approx. , posted on June 26, 2017 at 23:11:50
hifitommy
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Posts: 15387
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
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 right you are john, and if you have a fine line type stylus, it IS more important. well, I won't be going back to a conical tip. maybe just an elliptical is best then.
...regards...tr

 

RE: Help SRA related, posted on June 27, 2017 at 07:10:03
Whitesnake
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Joined: January 21, 2002
 Well i always had the arm level and the tracking ability of the XX2 is phenomenal in a sense that nothing sound bad nor mistrack. but I must say that this cart rarely gives me the goosebumps.

Fiddling with SRA I went through the whole range of VTA without detecting any amelioration nor deterioration and that's what got me to buy a microscope to see what's going on.

Now I still have to go the shimming route and see where that leads. My understanding is that different record thickness is not even a concern when you're in the 92 degree range especially when you think that 1 degree change means 4mm in VTA variation and that's a lot.

 

RE: Just FWIW, 92 degrees is an approximation. , posted on June 27, 2017 at 09:06:15
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 I use something very much like what you do. Not very scientific but it seems to work really well.

I have a Triplanar which allows me to adjust the arm height on the fly. I never mess with it.

What is far more important is getting the overhang and such right. If the arm and cartridge is right then nothing you can throw at it will cause it to breakup or become strained.

Where I see the microscope as useful is sorting out if the stylus is properly mounted in the cantilever.

When you are cutting LPs, you have to expect that 99 44/100ths percent of everyone listening to the LP has not taken the time or effort to look at the SRA. Most of them have done what you and I do.

 

+1, great post! Nt, posted on June 27, 2017 at 10:42:12
viridian
 Nt

 

RE: Help SRA related, posted on June 27, 2017 at 13:18:53
beach cruiser
Audiophile

Posts: 7054
Location: so cal
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 I'm with you, this is not a visual problem. Even with a perfect visual solution, it would still have to be checked against an audio measurement. Like a test flight in a new plane, works on the ground is not the story, and never will be.

I have always adjusted the arm height for best sound, as soon as I got tipped off about it;
Even with arms that weren't designed for adjustment on the fly , the set screw and post types. I know I can't see what's going on, and really don't need to, I am after results over data. My new arm buying targets were easy VTA , and it was a good choice for me. I set it for general playback, but once in a while, it is good to dial it in, so to speak, for a critical listen.

As for Fremer ,meh, I understand that a guy has to make a living , and duty calls, but I lost interest in his advice after he wrote that an anti magnetizing vinyl gizmo has value and I should go get one. Well It started way before that, when I was looking for equipment. I was used to guys talking about rise times and slew rate, and this guy is talking about magic sound and how nobody understands how he does it.

 

RE: Help SRA related, posted on June 27, 2017 at 16:33:06
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 To be honest, if you couldn't hear any difference when you were level, I'm not sure why you are worrying about the SRA! You might already be getting the optimum playback of the recordings. What is the soundstaging like? How about sibilance? When SRA is optimised, you shouldn't get sibilance (except what is on the recording) and you should get minimal surface noise and clean playback at all signal levels. You should get Zeiss-inspired clarity to the soundstage.
If you compare the LP playback to CD, how tonally different is the result? If it is similar, probably the lack of "goosebumps" is that you are reproducing the LP with inaudible levels of distortion! You can't add goosebumps when the recording itself lacks the information.

The other thing you should note is that you are assuming that the shank/tip axis defines the scanning radius axis. SRA is also tip cut dependent and the manufacturer has determined the optimum angle based on the tip design. For tips like the FGS and Shibata, this isn't a valid assumption at all. The XX2 has an Ogura Pathfinder (I think!) which is 7x30um which is not a long contact line at all in the world of LC styli so isn't as sensitive to SRA mismatch.

Illogically small adjustments in arm height can make all the difference so record thickness IS important. It just depends on your method of optimisation. SRA mismatch results in FM distortion of the signal and the rate of increase in distortion with respect to angular error is far greater than VTA mismatch. SRA mismatch results in scanning losses at HF (equivalent to tape head azimuth). So optimising the SRA is best done with very HF rich content on the inner grooves where the recorded wavelength is very short at HF due to the decreased linear velocity of the groove. FWIW, 10um adjustments are enough to eliminate hints of sibilance with long contact line tips such as JICO SAS and StereohedronII which have a bearing radius of ~70um (over twice that for the Pathfinder). So record height is important.

Since the VTA and SRA are inextricably linked to each other by virtue of the cantilever, altering the SRA by raising the arm pillar will alter the coil relationship to the groove for which the suspension has been designed for. In other words, I suspect you aren't going to achieve your sonic goal even if you DID hit the 2° target.

There was a thread some time ago by a gentleman with a DL103 trying to do the exact same thing as you and he found that he was unable to make the sufficient angular adjustment for a given increase in arm pillar height. In other words, the angular change did not match the theoretical change he made in arm pillar height.
It would be interesting if you could give an indication of the change in SRA with arm height as you adjust the pillar. I suspect you will have the same issue as said gentleman.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

Doing it by ear..., posted on June 27, 2017 at 19:14:32
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
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 I like your approach, and I like to think it would be my approach, if I could be bothered to fiddle with my tonearm every time I play a different LP from the one I've just listened to. So, I'm afraid I am one of those "just level it" guys. But may I ask, on average, is your tonearm angled up or down with respect to the pivot, after you have optimized by ear? And with what cartridge bearing what stylus shape is this the case? Thanks.

I am impressed with the depth of understanding you and Flood display on this subject.

 

RE: Doing it by ear..., posted on June 27, 2017 at 20:49:38
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 The point is to take a record that most people agree is typical of a "normal" 120 gm record and adjust your SRA by ear to it. It's not all that hard to do and far easier and reliable IMO than the microscope method. Look at what Whitesnake is going through, and with all that pseudoscientific advice! From that point on you have a choice of leaving it "reasonably" close to correct for most records, or if you are of such a mind you can try to adjust it for each. Your choice.

I disagree with Ralph about the degree of variability in SRA record cutting, at least for older lps, the kind that I listen to and prefer. Ralph, obviously, works now when cutting machinery is 50-60 years old and record production is in the hundreds. Most of what I listen to are much older (and I think better) disks cut when the machines were young, the cutting engineers known by name and proud of their work. They even signed their cuttings. Record productions were then in the hundreds of thousands and that made it worthwhile for them to take the time to get it right. I believe there was less variability in SRA then. They even had test records useful for setting stylus SRA using an oscilloscope, so obviously an expectation of precision.

 

RE: Help SRA related, posted on June 27, 2017 at 21:05:50
Whitesnake
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Joined: January 21, 2002
 Could it be the Dynavector voicing that I'm not getting? Well let me put it this way.

The XX2 is never harsh whatever you throw at it. With the arm level and the overhang spot on:

-The bass is rock solid, the mids are nicely tuned and the treble is extended and clean.
-The soundstage is wide and tall. Each instrument has its own space and practically never gets crowded.
-Sibilance simply does not exist, neither does mistracking. The last tracks are again fun to play.
-Surface noise is exemplary. It's very hard to tell a vinyl playback from a cd playback judging by the surface noise.

You say then what the hell is wrong. My short answer is this cart does not do anything wrong but at the same time it doesn't come with any bells and whistles. Now this could be a hearing loss related after all, and I'm missing the excitement. So I started to fiddle with VTA then SRA hoping to educate myself how to make better use of those.

To put things in perspective, I find my Blackbird cart (almost half the price of an XX2) more exiting and beg me to play vinyl. Although it's not forgiving when it comes to bad recordings, the XX2 is.

The cd came a long way and the sound I'm getting is pretty much to my likings. Granted not all the time but I never obsessed about it either.

So since everybody agrees that a negative SRA equal dull sound and since this is what I believe I'm getting, I'll go the extra mile and try a way to shim at the cart level bringing down this non sense at the arm base. Otherwise going back to level or slight tail down.

This is proved to be an eyeballing exercise even with a microscope. So if this won't become a shrink related problem, I'll post my findings soon.

Thank you all for your input.
Michel

 

RE: Just checking, but..., posted on June 28, 2017 at 03:25:19
beach cruiser
Audiophile

Posts: 7054
Location: so cal
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 The only cartridge shims I have ever even seen were constructed of simple plastic , little squared off "C" shapes, included with cart purchase. The material felt and looked very much like the clear plastic material used on toothbrush and other packaging, but thinner and dark tinted. Weight and stability were the obvious goals. perhaps some kind of sonic isolation could be incorporated, once the correct shim height was known.

Glad you guys have such good technical understandings, although It does make me look bad in comparison. Thank goodness no chicks hang around here, so no worries. I certainly don't mind the illumination.

I happen to enjoy that same table design and if it were me, I would be sliding the arm post, up or down, after making a tattle tale mark, to see what happens. With audio illusions, it is easy to lose your place , and the mark at home base is helpful, at times.

Of course, I fully realize my "hey, dat sounds good" approach is not your deal, in that the overhang changes along with any height change. And you know what they say, without correct overhang, you ain't nothin'.

If I had a desire to experiment, I would mark the home position, start with a level arm, use a radical tip shape, to make it a more off , on, effect, and a cart that can handle being part of an audio experiment, i.e., not collapse prone.

 

Are you talking from experience?, posted on June 28, 2017 at 06:22:19
EdAInWestOC
Audiophile

Posts: 6828
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Joined: December 18, 2003
 It sounds like you are making the assumption that setting the proper VTA/SRA is some sort of exercise that requires long hours of tedious experimentation. It really is not that difficult.

Your first try at VTA on the fly is not easy but it becomes easier as you become experienced. The hardest part of the whole thing is when you first mount a new cartridge. At this point all bets are off and you have to find the range that satisfies different LPs in your collection. Once you locate the range that satisfies most LPs on your shelves, the task becomes much easier.

Finding the proper VTA/SRA setting starts with setting the VTA too high so that the high frequencies are strident and have a beaming like quality. At this point you start lowering the VTA until you have a good tonal balance. Then you are almost home.

Next you pay attention to cymbals and acoustical instruments to make sure that the fundamentals of the instrument match up with the harmonics. You make final adjustments until cymbals sound much more realistic and less "splashy", acoustic guitars take on a large and organic sound quality and sound like they have some depth and body. All acoustic instruments take on a more real character and sound like you know how they are supposed to sound. Then you have it.

Different LPs make the task described above easier. The better recorded the LP is, the easier the job of setting the VTA/SRA. It is an ear opener to find how many LPs that you assume are poorly recorded are, in fact, better than you ever gave them credit for.

Arriving at the best VTA/SRA won't turn a lousy pressing into a world beater, but it will improve the LPs that you have. All of the above is worth the effort if you care about quality reproduction of music. If you spend thousands of dollars on your analog playback rig you might consider how much sound quality you are wasting by leaving the VTA set to an approximation.

It really isn't that hard to make the adjustment to the the VTA if your tonearm has that ability. And it is not impossible to add VTA on the fly to many tonearms if you are willing to do the work and invest the money.

Ed
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof

 

+1, Great Post, posted on June 28, 2017 at 10:27:33
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
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 Interesting. I also prefer going high and coming down.

 

RE: available shims?, posted on June 28, 2017 at 12:11:01
BCR
Audiophile

Posts: 2444
Location: connecticut
Joined: April 7, 2009
 I have two headshell shims. If you need them let me know and I will mail them to you!

 

yes, from experience, posted on June 28, 2017 at 15:31:46
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15387
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 i would so love to have easily and accurately adjustable VTA on the fly and my ideal would be remotely controllable. every time i say that in front of my friend-David Shreve, he laughs and admonishes me.

BUT there ARE a couple of arms that actually have remote vta but they are prohibitively expensive for me.

speaking of David, he is a vta maven, and made a chart for the adjusting screws that control arm height with different positions for a wide range of labels-columbia, rca, etc. that can simplify a listening session.

i learned to do this long ago and adjust for the majority of records. when we encounter fixed arms (e.g. Rega), we use differing thicknesses of platter mat OR sometimes David will use shims under the cartridge. he is more discerning than me.
...regards...tr

 

I don't disagree with any of that..., posted on June 28, 2017 at 16:13:23
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 So is your pivot point typically up or down with respect to the headshell, with the typical 120g LP from the good old days, when you are happy with SRA?

 

RE: I don't disagree with any of that..., posted on June 28, 2017 at 16:56:03
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 On my Audio Technica ART-9 the consensus (on one of the ART-9 threads on Audiogon) is tail up and I heartily agree. On my old Shelter 501, it was tail down.

On another forum I persuaded a correspondent who was running his ART-9 perfectly level to raise it in stages and listen. He responded, "A silly little 2mm and this thing sounds world class focused and transparent as well as faster and more dynamic. I am stunned by the difference."

Yet there are "experienced" folks out there counseling to leave all cartridges level, to wit, just another "set by eye, not by ear." The blind leading the blind, or is it the deaf.

 

RE: I don't disagree with any of that..., posted on June 28, 2017 at 19:57:15
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 It really depends on whether you rely purely on a subjective assessment or objective measurement to determine the appropriate settings. A mixture of both is required to optimise the setup.
A knowledge of the tip design is also necessary to understand the sensitivity of the tip to small errors. The ART-7/9 also has a fairly short contact line compared to more advanced tip cuts, so it will be fairly tolerant of arm height variations.

A blanket recommendation of "this cartridge requires tail up" is not appropriate unless the arm is also specified. Also, you are essentially saying "The manufacturers don't make the cartridge correctly". Implying that ALL ART-9 cartridges have the same "fault" which is unlikely.
For example, on an SL1200, the Technics arm will always look tail up because the reference headshell is not designed to sit parallel to the arm tube when mounted - the reference "0" position of the pillar is set high by ~1.5mm when the cantilever is deflected, at which point the headshell/cartridge plane is horizontal and the tail is up. Someone subsituting a different headshell and who doesn't understand all the parameters will end up with an incorrect solution unless he has determined by objective measurement that the SRA is in error.
A mounting tolerance of ±1° on SRA and tip azimuth is quite typical. The correct arm height will depend on the actual tip angle not an arbitrary "tail up".
Is 0.01mm extra on the pillar height tail up enough? Or did you mean 1mm or even 5mm? ;)

Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: I don't disagree with any of that..., posted on June 28, 2017 at 20:31:17
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 When most people say tail up or down I assume their reference is from a position of a level cartridge--notwithstanding the level of the length of the arm from cartridge to pivot.

Well, I don't know what the manufacturing tolerances of cartridges are, and not being a reviewer I have only used a handful. But as I said, in an Audiogon thread a number of correspondents wrote of finding tail up was optimal for the AT Art-9, and no one reported otherwise. Independently I found this to be the case, as did the correspondent I referred to. Notwithstanding what you say about the rake of the Art-9 I do find it pretty sensitive to SRA/VTA, as do others

Going back to the Shelter, I recall reading a review of it before my purchase and the review recommended tail down. And that is what I found on my own.

 

RE: I don't disagree with any of that..., posted on June 28, 2017 at 22:42:01
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 If your SL-1200 tonearm appears to be tail-up when set to zero, you're cartridge is not tall enough. Try a different cartridge.

 

RE: I don't disagree with any of that..., posted on June 28, 2017 at 23:16:45
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 You didn't read what I wrote carefully enough. Or perhaps you haven't studied the arm carefully enough!
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: I don't disagree with any of that..., posted on June 28, 2017 at 23:42:04
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 The recommendation has to be based on an actual measurable parameter.
If a purely subjective approach is taken then you will get quite a wide adjustment range as one person's "too bright" might actually be a flat response which is correctly reproducing the record and the "tail down" recommendation might actually be rolling off the top end due to the introduction of an SRA error. SRA mismatch is analogous to magnetic tape head azimuth in that it introduces scanning loss as well as introducing significant levels of distortion.

I'm not trying to be argumentative - my point is that "Tail Up/down" without specifying the magnitude of the deviation from horizontal is extremely vague!
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: I don't disagree with any of that..., posted on June 29, 2017 at 06:18:58
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 Everything you say is logical. Yet still, if there is a consensus of tail up, for example, it is a great time saver if you have a new cartridge in that you will likely find your spot going in that direction rather than the opposite. That's all. Just based on my too small sample of 2.

As for measurement, very difficult to measure deviation from level as truly level may not be easily ascertained, some of the difficulties made apparent in your post. Certainly not worth the trouble for me. I do measure deviations from my optimum for most 120 gm records, as for a 200 gm record, using a VPI arm which has a graduated scale.

 

I agree with you on the remote control VTAF thing..., posted on June 29, 2017 at 06:23:36
EdAInWestOC
Audiophile

Posts: 6828
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Joined: December 18, 2003
 It is a feature that should exist on modern tonearms and would be more affordable if someone would take it on. I was using a Riggle VTAF equipped RB-300 on a Denon DP-62L for some years. It was a nice setup for the money.

This year I upgraded to a VPI Prime and the 3D tonearm's VTA on the fly is beautifully executed. Its a unipivot and you can adjust the VTA while spinning without exciting the tonearm one little bit. That s very well done VTA on the fly.

It seems that someone could add a motor driven facility for remote control to an arm like the 3D without too many issues. It would be nice to have remote control with some memory saved presets to make thing easy.

Yeah, the arms that do have remote control VTA on the fly are in the nosebleed seats, cost wise.

Ed
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof

 

RE: Help SRA related, posted on June 29, 2017 at 23:22:12
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 You did it something like this:

SRA = 55.05 + 70.42 / 2 = 90.26-degrees

.....

 

RE: Help SRA related, posted on June 30, 2017 at 12:57:25
Yeti42
Audiophile

Posts: 161
Location: Berkshire
Joined: July 12, 2010
 If you're measuring VTF at 2g with a digital balance resting on the platter that's not what it is riding in the groove, not with a unipivot with an underslung counterweight. The centre of grivity will be below the pivot point and forward so as the headshell is lifted it will move away from the pivot increasing the force measured at the stylus. I used to run an Aro and set thusly I needed a measured 2.43g to make a 17D3 sound right and 2.64 for a Proteus. I started at a measured 2g in each case with the arm level and let my ears tell me which way to go, the scales just helped return to a previous setting when I went too far. VTA can come later and will probably lead to readjusting VTF again. There will usually be a record that tells you it could be better and fine tuning will follow. This can take weeks but eventually you won't feel the need to tweek it whatever you play. Let the measurements guide you but let your ears decide.

 

RE: Help SRA related, posted on July 3, 2017 at 10:00:12
Victor7
Audiophile

Posts: 96
Joined: September 23, 2015
 Strange how the industry "U" turns on issues like this over time...
"Normal" VTA adjustment (i.e. setting the tonearm to a horizontal position as per industry recommendations) currently falls into the "salt is bad for you" category. Nowadays the medical world advises that salt is good for you barring HBP or heart condition and that dosage less than 3g per day is positively harmful because you probably sweat more than that! ;D

As the years pass you'll watch them "U" turn repeatedly until you are positively dizzy and left wondering if the dizziness is caused by the absence or surfeit of salt! 
MF's "92 degrees" has become the current "standard" and that this, as seen above, tends to invite users to adopt a serious "nose-down" (positive VTA) attitude of the tonearm. However, decades ago, a similar study of VTA was performed in the UK.
The conclusions were exactly the opposite of the "92 degree standard" : a slight TAIL-DOWN tonearm attitude was recommended (which I think you'll agree is a lot more achievable than what we're seeing here in the pursuit of "92 degrees"!)

To see a brief reference to this study -

http://www.ringmat.com/products/tonearmalignment.htm

It's interesting to note that they recommend taking account of ambient room conditions when setting VTA. This has been my experience also (especially humidity). Not accounting for those conditions can make a complete nonsense of the "92 degree" or indeed any other mantra. To illustrate this try doing some needledrops at 55% RH +/-10% (i.e. 45% and 65%) while maintaining a steady 22C temperature. It's a chalk and cheese difference, probably because of the impact on SRA amongst other things.
(BTW, why "plastic" materials should respond in this way beats me. I would have thought temperature was king.)
The adjustment of VTF was also deemed critical to get the ideal SRA under those conditions.

Goodness knows cartridge alignment is difficult enough but any cartridge manufacturer who arranges his design so that you need a microscope plus computer software to analyse the orientation of the facets on the diamond such that you end up with a tonearm angle that has more in common with a children's slide than a simple balanced form needs to be taken out and shot! :D
Good luck with the shimming!

 

RE: Help SRA related, posted on July 3, 2017 at 13:08:40
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3537
Joined: April 23, 2007
 I remember those days Victor7..... and you're right. The cartridge manufacturers should decide on a standard for which we can set and stick to it.

 

RE: Help SRA related, posted on July 4, 2017 at 01:11:24
Victor7
Audiophile

Posts: 96
Joined: September 23, 2015
 Absolutely SGreen. Sound engineering is based on specifications & tolerances. Without those we have no engineering.

 

RE: Help SRA related, posted on July 4, 2017 at 15:45:59
plastico
Audiophile

Posts: 40
Location: ontario canada
Joined: February 1, 2014
 In case you are interested Whitesnake this is from Pete Riggles site.
Cartridge Shims: $24 for set of five shims in thicknesses of .01, .02, .03, .04, and .05 inches. Free shipping for cartridge shims.

These shims can be used to rotate the cartridge body lower in the rear for us in any situation where the turntable setup does not allow the cartridge body to be sufficiently low in the rear to achieve optimum Vertical Tracking Angle. Each .01 inches of shim thickness has roughly the same effect as lowering the armboard by 1/8 inch.
Cheers, Doug

 

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