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Solti's Legacy

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Posted on May 17, 2017 at 16:34:48
TGR
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 In the Beethoven 9th thread below, one of the posters mentioned that Solti is often bashed these days by critics and collectors, something that I have found to be true as well. Even back in the day when Solti was a huge star, there were naysayers - I think it was Wolfgang Wagner who talked about Solti's conducting as "an orgasm in every bar" (and that was a bad thing, just to be clear).

With everything, you have to listen. I was able to hear Solti live just once, when the Chicago Symphony played Mahler's 5th in War Memorial Opera House in SF (and also Mozart's Jupiter symphony - Mozart/Mahler was all the rage back then) - breathtaking concert, even if Adolph Herseth muffed the opening trumpet fanfare.

Solti made a lot of GREAT recordings - in another thread below a poster asked for opera recommendations, and I was a little surprised to see how frequently I recommended a Solti recording -not just Wagner, but also Verdi and Mozart. I have not heard his complete Beethoven symphony set, but I was impressed by the set of piano concertos he did with Ashkenazy (although it didn't replace my all time fave, the Fleisher/Szell) and he was well known for his Mahler, Bartok, Schumann (I really like his set of symphonies) and so on. A Fanfare reviewer that I have found to be reliable, James Altena, has praised not only his recordings of Verdi, but favors his cycle of Haydn Salomon symphonies.

Anyway, he was a great conductor, and a man who loved music.

 

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I'm not as sanguine about Solti - but I don't think it was all his fault, posted on May 17, 2017 at 19:26:56
Chris from Lafayette
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 I've posted about this before, but, since you brought up the Ashkenazy recordings of the Beethoven Concertos, I've heard them played back to back with the earlier Cliburn/Reiner recordings of nos. 4 and 5 (both with the CSO). I was amazed by how superior the earlier recordings sounded (even though the Cliburn Fourth dates from the Dynagroove era - LOL!). By the time they were recording the Ashkenazy/Solti Beethoven set, the Decca engineers had obviously added quite a few spot mikes to their basic tree configuration. The result is some relatively clotted and congested sound - which for some listeners might sound like it's Solti's fault, but I'm more inclined to blame the engineers.

So much of Solti's time in Chicago was undermined by Decca's over-microphoned approach to engineering, and it bothered me no end. (Ugh! That first Mahler Fifth they did, where, near the end, you can literally hear the spot mike slider for the horns being manipulated - awful!) But then, by chance, I happened to acquire a Laser Disc of an in-concert Solti/CSO performance of the Bruckner Seventh at Albert Hall. Wow! What a difference the relatively simple microphoning made - So much so that even Solti's basic "generalized energy for everything" approach seemed mitigated, and the music proceeded much more naturally, without the exclamation mark at the end of each phrase!

I'm sure Solti was a fine conductor, but those "accalimed" Decca CSO recordings come in a poor second to the earlier Living Stereo recordings with Reiner and the same orchestra (IMHO), and they affect my perceptions of Solti's conducting accordingly.

 

I was a big fan of Solti early-on, but rarely does he let music bloom and breathe, posted on May 17, 2017 at 19:38:48
jdaniel@jps.net
 Once I acquired Solti's famousRing Cycle, I never thought I'd need another. Same with Mahler. (We're talking a long time ago.)

In the 90s I stumbled across Levine's DGG Met Ring Cycle used. It's not without issues, but the voluptuous, luminous, burnished sound Levine drew from the orchestra stunned me: like water poured on a dry sponge.

With Solti, who is impossible to avoid on Lp, I always feel as though I'm getting half the story. Nothing to do with recording quality.

 

RE: I'm not as sanguine about Solti - but I don't think it was all his fault, posted on May 17, 2017 at 20:42:11
robertkeir
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 Reiner had the benefit of Orchestra Hall before the renovation. That it was a superb recording venue is borne out by the many fine recordings Dr. Reiner was able to make there. Before Reiner, Mercury made a couple of great recordings with the CSO under Rafael Kubelik.

By the time Solti came to town, Orchestra Hall was no longer such a great place to record. I don't know who or how the decision was made but it was decided that Medinah Temple would be the new recording home of the CSO. Some of the recordings made there are really not so bad even if they are not in the same class as the Reiner/Orchestra Hall ones. I'm thinking of the Brahms symphonies from the late 1970's which coincided with the end of the analog recording era. No doubt the Decca team benefited from almost a decade of experience there when those recordings were made. Consider too that the handful of recordings the CSO and Solti made in the Great Hall at the Krannert Center at the University of Illinois were generally well received as to recorded sound. The Beethoven 9th and Mahler 7th among others were recorded there.

I think too that Solti's recordings suffered from the industry's conversion to digital recording techniques. Decca as well as other labels seemed to have a hard time adjusting to the new technology, and perhaps Decca struggled more than most. Those Decca CD's from the 1980's are pretty harsh and unlistenable.

 

RE: Solti's Legacy, posted on May 17, 2017 at 21:34:29
Inmate51
 Sir Georg Solti is an icon in the book of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.

I have his/their recording of Beethoven's 9th symphony from way back in the early '70s.

I have his book "Memoirs", and read it cover-to-cover over two evenings - it's that good.

:)

 

RE: Solti's Legacy, posted on May 17, 2017 at 21:49:23
Logan
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 If you want to listen to the best of Solti on record, turm to his earlier recordings with the London Philharmonic and Symphony Orchestras. I'm thinking of Mahler and Bartok in particular. I believe that most if not all were recorded in the refined acoustic of Kingsway Hall.

His supporters neglect to mention his prowess as a Straussian. His recording of Der Rosenkavalier is as good as the fabled Karajan, and his Die Frau ohne Schatten may well be the best-recorded opera of all time (recorded in Vienna with the VPO). I'm not so enthusiastic about his Verdi operas but I continue listening to them because of the superb singing casts he was able to gather.

 

Yup - I liked his book too! [nt], posted on May 17, 2017 at 23:35:27
Chris from Lafayette
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RE: Solti's Legacy, posted on May 18, 2017 at 07:27:59
spindoctor
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 His Mahler first is my personal favorite recording- I have both the digital and the analogue pressings and both are great. I remember hearing this live for the first time with the CLEVELAND ORCHESTRA and was impressed with the small musical section at the beginning of the first movement that were playing somewhere under the stage!!!

Sim

 

Yes - I agree about the Mercury Kubelik recordings, posted on May 18, 2017 at 09:04:01
Chris from Lafayette
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 It's funny about what Decca was doing in Chicago during the Solti era. I haven't heard the Brahms set you mention, but I used to have the Solti/CSO and Maazel/Cleveland recordings of La Mer (both recorded by Decca), and the Maazel recording seemed far more natural than the Solti (better performance too - at least IMHO!). Heck, I'd even claim that many (although certainly not all) of the Decca Mehta/LAPO recordings from that era were better engineered than those with Solti and the CSO. In addition, during this same era, EMI made a number of recordings with Giulini and the CSO, and IMHO they got a far more natural sound than Decca was getting at that time for Solti. (OTOH, the Giulini/CSO recordings on DG were to my ears comparable to the Deccas in the audibility of the multi-miking.)

I suppose a lot of this is just personal perception, but I do think that we agree that Solti suffered somewhat from the engineering he received, especially during his earlier years in Chicago.

 

RE: Yes - I agree about the Mercury Kubelik recordings, posted on May 18, 2017 at 10:35:21
Inmate51
 It's essential to remember that Decca is a company, not a recording engineer. Even within a company, especially a very large company, engineers and producers vary widely in their recording approaches and goals, not to forget the acoustics of the space.

:)

 

RE: Solti's Legacy, posted on May 18, 2017 at 11:14:01
docw
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 Here are some good Solti records I enjoy:

Bartok Conc. for Orch, VPO
Elgar Enigma Var., CSO and VPO live
Beethoven Sym 5/7, VPO, old London/Decca
Dvorak New World, CSO digital one
Suppe Overtures, etc. VPO

There are some find Hadyn symphonies.

See link.

 

Solti/CSO Brahms..., posted on May 18, 2017 at 12:11:14
kuma
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Posts: 10273
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 This is one of a nicer Decca/London Solti/CSO recording @ Medinah Temple in 1979. ( I assume this is still analogue recording )Colin Moorfoot, Kenneth Wilkinson Michael Mailes are listed as engineers.
Natural and large soundstage. Warm midrange with powerful dynamics. Excellent low end reach and transient. Strings retain textures. Low self noise and above average low level details. Performance wise, this is a Wagnerian Brahms. :)

Solti's later digital Decca recordings are pretty painful to my ears.

 

RE: Yes, Decca Mehta/LAPO, posted on May 18, 2017 at 12:36:22
Mel
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Location: New York City Area
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 IMO Decca's best audio work in the US. For ex.: Mahler 3, Planets, Ein Heldenleben.

 

Solti's recordings of R. Strauss, posted on May 18, 2017 at 15:13:43
TGR
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 I didn't mention them because I am not a big fan of R. Strauss, so I didn't feel I could comment.

 

My favoite Brahms First. I wish the other 3 were as good as the first., posted on May 18, 2017 at 17:48:49
Opus 33 1/3
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 2, 3 and 4 aren't bad by any means, just not superb, like his First.





Opus 33 1/3

 

RE: Solti's Legacy, posted on May 18, 2017 at 23:32:03
Logan
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 In my tribute to Solti's earlier UK Decca recordings with London orchestras I forgot to mention his excellent pair of Elgar symphonies, which I rate above all others, if air time in my listening room is the criterion. It has never ceased to amaze me that non-English conductors have flourished in this supposedly quintessential English music - Barenboim, Haitink, and Slatkin come immediately to mind. Of the British conductors in this repertoire only Vernon Handley, Andrew Davis and Edward Downes convince me. The same conundrum applies to the Vaughan Williams symphonies, where Haitink, Slatkin and Previn dominate my listening, along with a stunning Andrew Davis sixth.

I'd be interested to know why Rattle appears to ignore these native composers on record. He did do a Dream of Gerontius with the veteran but still wonderful Janet Baker but the tenor was inadequate.

 

Just by chance, I was listening to the Mehta Mahler 3 in my car earlier today, posted on May 19, 2017 at 00:20:32
Chris from Lafayette
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 Certainly this is a recording that's under the radar for a lot folks, but I like it too!

As for the Planets, I like the engineering on that one somewhat less well (the 30 microphones always do me in!), although I seem to have acquired enough incarnations of it over the years! ;-)

 

I don't disagree with any of that, posted on May 19, 2017 at 00:22:21
Chris from Lafayette
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 Still, I think Solti could have been better served in Chicago.

 

docw - thanks for the link - I wasn't aware of the wiki discography of Solti [nt], posted on May 19, 2017 at 00:32:15
Chris from Lafayette
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Elgar, posted on May 19, 2017 at 08:52:02
TGR
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Posts: 3002
Location: No. California
Joined: March 22, 2004
 Elgar is one of the composers that I have not yet cracked the code. I have multiple copies of his symphonies (including the Solti recording of the 2nd), and concertos, and I just don't get there. Oddly enough, one work that really does work for me is the violin concerto, which I have heard live once, with Zukerman.

A number of years back I got into an interesting exchange with Bernard Jacobson, at that time on the Fanfare staff, when he made the claim, astonishing to me, that "Elgar was a greater composer than Mahler". Frankly, his response to my challenge of this statement (which I did very respectfully) was weak, incomplete and unconvincing.

Part of my issue may be that I have heard few of his works live - just the violin concerto, which I loved, and Falstaff, which bored me to tears.

Oh yes, and the Enigma Variations - many moons ago I heard the LA Phil play this, led by "Baby Rattle", when he was about 24....time flies.

 

RE: docw - thanks for the link - I wasn't aware of the wiki discography of Solti [nt], posted on May 19, 2017 at 12:59:34
docw
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 just pokin' around, wow, lots of stuff there.

 

With Solti, who is impossible to avoid on Lp, I always feel as though I'm getting half the story, posted on May 20, 2017 at 13:39:44
richardl
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 Exactly! In my opinion, Solti reduces the music to less than sublime. He beats on it. Too often he appears to be flogging it to death. He simplifies it to loud and overcooked IMO. YMMV

 

RE: Solti's Legacy, posted on May 20, 2017 at 14:39:37
goldenthal
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 As you know, I strongly agree with your enthusiasm for your preferred Magic Flute. As for the Beethoven concerti with Ashkenazy, I was really stuck on that performance of the 4th until my aged pa made me drag out and re-acquaint myself with the Fleisher/Szell which really is a greater performance -- one might say "normative".

Re Verdi, though, I have often thought that Solti slightly truncates (? rounds off?) rhythms.

Nevertheless, I also agree that Solti is unduly and surprisingly bashed around here.


Jeremy

 

RE: Solti's Legacy, posted on May 21, 2017 at 10:12:33
Rnm4
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 I was a student in Chicago from 77-91 (don't laugh -- three degrees) and got to hear Solti conduct the CSO many times. Whatever the merits of the Decca recordings, when he and the CSO were on, it was truly spectacular. I recall in particular a performance of Beethoven 7, that was unimaginably exacting and exciting. I admit I preferred to go hear Giulini, who was principal guest conductor. But that's no knock on Sir George. He may not be to your taste, but bashing him? Get a life.

 

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