? progress

I think the answer begs the question of which aspect of newer designs builds?
While the circuit basics are still valid, the execution has improved with components selection and to a lesser extent, layout. Hafler equipment is 40-50 years old- so caps and carbon resistors may well be out of spec - yes they could be replaced....

Pots don't often age well, and the connectors are probably not worth cleaning...

If you have them, putting some work into them could be rewarding, but to buy and then upgrade/replace worn out bits - that could be expensive

I probably would not - even if I owned them-
Happy Listening

Would a hafler 110/200 setup still be up to contemporary standards?, posted on August 1, 2022 at 10:31:26

kff
Audiophile

Posts: 1034
Location: SE PA
Joined: October 19, 2006

No, never was. It was designed to be the same as Dynaco gear, as close as most need to get for way less money. They are still a deal, properly sorted but as Musical Concepts shows with all the upgrades for the amp there is a good bit of improvement available.

My DH-200 lost out to the SS winner a McCormack DNA-1, the Citation 22 was next and then the Crown SA-2. The tube amps mopped the floor with em. Those Luxman MB3045s are some nice sounding amps.

But for the money Hafler is still a bargain. Want today's high end sound, get the MC upgrades.

RE: ? progress, posted on August 3, 2022 at 07:57:00
Palustris Audiophile Posts: 2408 Location: Cape Cod Joined: September 12, 2008	I built a Hafler 200 when they first came out. I listened to it for a while using a Heathkit tube preamp. I then found a Dynaco St70 and replaced the new Hafler with the ST70. There was no contest: I much preferred the ST70.

RE: ? progress, posted on August 3, 2022 at 21:14:45

rockdoc
Audiophile

Posts: 200
Location: Harwich MA
Joined: February 17, 2010

I also built a 200, and later had two given to me by HP I used in dual mono, listened with a variety of preamps: Hafler, and then tubed. I agree with Palustris; I was much happier with all the tube power amps I later got into, including the Dyna Mk.IIIs, St 35, Marantz 8b, and then the various Heaths and Fishers, and later the single ended stuff. So, "progress"? Well, part of a progression for me and many others here I'm sure. Steve T

RE: ? progress, posted on August 4, 2022 at 06:51:22
airtime Audiophile Posts: 11287 Location: Arizona Joined: February 4, 2003	A lot of the very early solid state stuff was still in a learning curve in production. Back in those days the semi conductors were very noisy and didn't actually operate at their intended spec. Material science was playing catch up with newer engineering technics.

Ruined by early Dyna?, posted on August 10, 2022 at 07:46:47

M3 lover
Audiophile

Posts: 6605
Location: SW Mich
Joined: May 29, 2005
Contributor
Since: July 4, 2007

This may be a good news/bad news story.

I built my first stereo system around Dynakit ST-70, PAS-3, and FM-3. I loved the sound of that system and enjoyed it for a few years. Then I sold it before moving across the country. That was in 1970 and I felt the replacement system should take advantage of the newer solid state technology.

The new system sounded good in many ways, but somehow seemed to fail with the "connectivity" to the performance of that tube driven system. Over the years I tried upgrading the SS components, eventually adding one or more tubed item. Now over the past 30 years I've continued to have tubes in my system.

So is that a result of my formative listening years spent with tubes, or is it nostalgia? In spite of the popularity of the Dyna tube gear (ST-70 the largest selling amp of all time?), I don't believe anyone claimed it to be the best, just possibly the best for the money. Even with the lack of hi and low frequency extension and an absence of the clarity and refinement of later components, it was simply great fun to listen to and offered deep musical enjoyment.

I offer this to the OP since my audio trail included building Hafler 110 and 200 (influenced by earlier Dynaco ownership). I don't believe it is a matter of "contemporary standards", but rather personal standard. How does each of us define what we want and expect from our systems? It is hard to know when you've reached your destination if you haven't identified where you want to go.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

RE: Ruined by early Dyna?, posted on August 11, 2022 at 08:11:01
Hornlover Manufacturer Posts: 2529 Joined: March 8, 2002	The ST-70 was a great amp. Punched far above its price point. I used one for a long time for my mid/treble amp in a bi amped system. Sounded very sweet. David Hafler designed a very nice amp in the ST-70.

A Different Experience, posted on August 11, 2022 at 08:20:32

Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10049
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006

That's interesting, and not unlike a few other audio histories that I've heard. My experience was considerably different, and I think it speaks to objectively better sound quality with tubes that has nothing to do with nostalgia or conditioning.

Because of my jobs at factory warranty centers in the '70s and '80s, I had the privilege of listening to some of the era's best in SS, including Crown, Phase Linear, Levinson, Dynaco, B&O, Yamaha, Pioneer, Sansui, Kenwood, etc. There was always the occasional tube-type amp, but only the best and largest held up well paired with the grossly inefficient speakers of the day. My own systems during that time and for many years later were all SS.

Then, about 20-something years ago, I experienced a sonic epiphany. For whatever reason, I bought an HK A500 from a friend at work ($20), along with a few unrelated pieces. The amp was really filthy and unloved, and had been stored in his garage for a long time. I didn't expect much, but after cleaning it up a little, I connected it into my system just for grins. The sound from that amp was astonishing, and it simply walked all over my Luxman M120. I immediately set about building a small single-ended 6V6 amp, and the Luxman went to the big auction site a few weeks later. I've been building and listening to tube gear ever since.

For me, the difference between the two technologies is real and distinct. I'll never go back to solid state.

IMHO, Ed Laurent and Bob Tucker should also get their due in the design of the ST-70. nt, posted on August 11, 2022 at 08:33:22
viridian	Nt

yes indeed, a team of designers usually turns out better and faster /nt, posted on August 11, 2022 at 13:08:32
Story Audiophile Posts: 10459 Location: NJ Joined: December 11, 2000

Whilst true Hafler could wind some mean Xformers, ED LAURENT designed the Dynaco circuit~nT, posted on August 11, 2022 at 14:07:07
Cleantimestream Audiophile Posts: 7551 Location: Kentucky Joined: June 30, 2005	~! The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

I remember Keroes winding tranny's not Hafler, posted on August 11, 2022 at 14:20:35
Story Audiophile Posts: 10459 Location: NJ Joined: December 11, 2000	if Hafler did it was after Keroes left

They were all David Hafler's patents... I assumed he did some of the work too~nT, posted on August 14, 2022 at 07:39:09
Cleantimestream Audiophile Posts: 7551 Location: Kentucky Joined: June 30, 2005	! The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

He called the shots, posted on August 14, 2022 at 14:04:07

Story
Audiophile

Posts: 10459
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000

from what I've read. He wasn't picky about certain parts, that was reflected in the cost. Sound? Maybe the tranny's as they were critical and expensive, a good deal of the cost.

He had competition from all the greats. I'm happy to have had all of them at one time or another. My first kit at age 11 was a Dyna pat4. I've owned Scott, Heath, Eico, Fisher, Dynaco, Hafler, Mac...did I leave any out? I wish I could have collected them all.

Edit- I left out HK Citation V, now that one I really liked. I lent it to a friend who came home from Iraq with PTSD and now he's disappeared

RE: IMHO, Ed Laurent and Bob Tucker should also get their due in the design of the ST-70. nt, posted on August 14, 2022 at 21:07:45
hahax@verizon.net Audiophile Posts: 4310 Location: New Jersey Joined: March 22, 2006	The Stereo 70 came after the MK 4 mono amps and was a stereo version. It was done probably by the people you cite over a period when David Hafler was away and he learned about it when he returned. But I bet there had been discussions about doing a stereo amp over a period of time before the 70 was designed.

RE: A Different Experience, posted on August 15, 2022 at 11:06:27
sony6060 Audiophile Posts: 1465 Location: USA Joined: August 8, 2014	I am with Triode_Kingdom. Tube only for me. SS can never touch the wonderful tube midrange.

How transformers are made, posted on August 17, 2022 at 06:58:23

airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003

My father was a foreman in a shop that made transformers. This is how a transformer was made back then. And yes, many of those transformers were for audio use.

1-You gave your specs to the engineers at the shop.

2-You approved the design plan

3-They built a run.

4-Minor changes if needed on the line.

I worked at the factory a few summers so I not only know how they're made, but I've actually made them.

Making a transformer is a very time and labor intensive process. The setup, large building space, raw materials, QC testing and labor cost would make this process impractical for anyone except a factory.

maybe you can help this guy, posted on August 17, 2022 at 07:20:13

Story
Audiophile

Posts: 10459
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000

see linky. He has a Panor Dynaco PAS-4 preamp, lives in Canada, and needs help hooking his preamp to his native power. The inside says 240vac but the back panel has markings for different voltages, 240 & 120

It looks like there are different taps on the primary, but it also looks hard wired

https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/24/246038.ht

I thought Keroes and Hafler worked together at Acrosound, posted on August 17, 2022 at 07:54:08
Tre' Industry Professional Posts: 17306 Location: So. Cal. Joined: February 9, 2002	I didn't know Keroes was involved with Dyna. Tre' Have Fun and Enjoy the Music "Still Working the Problem"

Yes, Keroes was gone before Dyna was started. Link., posted on August 17, 2022 at 08:04:11

viridian

Link below:

Hafler bio

RE: A Different Experience, posted on August 17, 2022 at 08:05:28
Hornlover Manufacturer Posts: 2529 Joined: March 8, 2002	I'm a hybrid type. I prefer to biamp, using SS on the bass, and using tubes from 200-500 up. I will never go back to a non biamped system.

While walking through one of the electronic districts in Taipei, I saw, posted on August 17, 2022 at 20:22:06
alaskahiatt Audiophile Posts: 7508 Joined: December 9, 2000 Contributor Since: November 1, 2005	a small transformer shop and a guy appearing to hand wind transformer coils. Sorry I didn't have a small camera in those days, but these type of small electronic shops were not unusual in Taipei and Hong Kong.

RE: While walking through one of the electronic districts in Taipei, I saw, posted on August 18, 2022 at 07:19:18

airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003

The entire construction of a tranny is a hands on process. It's a spool of wire with a simple length counter. A person HAND cranks the tranny to wind the wire on a core.

The entire process is virtually ALL done by hand. Even today. That's why if Dynaco was making their own tranny's they would have to buy a large building because it would take about 50 or more people, in separate areas, to make all those tranny's.

RE: While walking through one of the electronic districts in Taipei, I saw, posted on August 18, 2022 at 07:25:56

Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17306
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002

I believe Acro made their own transformers.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

https://www.technicalaudio.com/pdf/Acro_Products_AcroSound/A

RE: How transformers are made, posted on August 20, 2022 at 03:04:23
Cleantimestream Audiophile Posts: 7551 Location: Kentucky Joined: June 30, 2005	Gosh, I sure was I was around him back in the day ... I would have been tugging on his coat every chance I got! The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

RE: A Different Experience, posted on August 24, 2022 at 19:26:38
bare Audiophile Posts: 1879 Joined: April 14, 2009	Some.. Serious /plausible arguments exist that claim the Sound of Tubes IS essentially the sound of Transformers in the circuit. SS or Tubes typology is largely Irrelevant.

Vintage Asylum

? progress

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