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Arrival after a long resistor journey

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Posted on September 29, 2020 at 18:27:06
madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
I have built many speaker systems over the past 50 years, in many different configurations and at many different levels of cost. I am not qualified or equipped to measure them, so I have always depended on professional services for the crossover design and my own ears to evaluate them. A few were flops, but most have performed satisfactorily, some admirably, a few better than those commercial brands I've owned, such as Yamaha NS1000M's, B&W DM6's and B&W 802's retrofitted with very expensive outboard xovers.

My current design has gone through several iterations involving two brands of midrange and two brands of tweeter over a period of five or so years. I moved up from the modest Peerless 830870 poly cone 4" midrange to the superb Peerless NE123W 4" paper cone midrange. Then I replaced the formerly Peerless/now Scanspeak D2608 soft dome tweeter with the excellent Satori TW29RN. These comprise the MTM tops of a 4-way system, but the bass bins and sub haven't changed much.

So you can see I have invested considerable expense in selection of drivers. The same is true of crossover components. All of the versions were executed with superior parts. The current xovers employ film and foil capacitors such as Jantzen Alumen Z and Audyn True Copper, along with a few poly caps such as Mundorf Silver/Oil, Sonicaps, and so on.

During all these trials I have also used many types and brands of resistors, in tweeter series and parallel connections. I have never been entirely satisfied with the sound of any of them.

I tried everything from Mills to Mundorf MOX to Caddock MP930 (with heatsinks) to Duelund graphite. I even built huge bundles of Vishay/Dale 1/2 watt to achieve sufficient power handling. They all varied from a grey wash to muffled to etched. I suspect that all wirewound resistors employ the same resistive element because it's cheap and readily available: fine gauge nichrome wire. If anyone knows of one that doesn't, please let us know. I don't think any self-respecting audiophile would intentionally introduce a material composed primarily of nickel and chrome into the signal path, yet all these resistors contain many inches of those very metals. The graphite and thick film resistors also left me unsatisfied.

Recently I tried a simple piece of Constantan wire sourced on eBay. It was inexpensive but well made with enamel insulation and a jacket of silk tubing. This alloy contains some copper but is still primarily nickel, confirmed by its silvery sheen after removing the enamel. Aside from the strategic difficulties of working with 32 gauge wire, it was also difficult to solder unless the iron was very hot and held in place for many seconds. I persevered and got better sound, but the high frequencies still had a coarse edge to them.

Just in the past few days I received a small spool of 34 gauge Manganin wire. I have now converted the series tweeter resistors to Manganin, and I think I've found the best sounding resistor of all. The high frequency edge has completely vanished, leaving pristine clarity and smooth tones. This wire contains 84% copper, as displayed by its golden sheen, and is easy to solder. It is still somewhat difficult to work with because it's so very thin, but it's tough and resistant to breaking while being extremely flexible. The resistance is appx .49 ohms per inch, so the typically small resistance values for tweeter padding are only a few inches long, and I just left the wire hanging bare in the crossovers, which are outside the speaker enclosure and not subject to much vibration. I suppose I could try damping them with something, but for right now I'm enjoying the clearest highs I've ever heard from my system. Gone is the artificial edge and hash of high frequencies that I've heard from too many speakers, including my own.

This is not a tweak for those who like to improve their system by replacing outlet covers, and it will not transform your system. It is a refinement which requires some courage, some knowledge, some basic soldering skill, and a lot of patience. It does not involve much money. Ten meters of wire from Bulgaria cost me $12 and, with planets perfectly aligned, it arrived in only 16 days. I've used about two feet of 33. I have plenty left over if anyone wants to try it for a dollar. If you've read this far, you deserve a reward. Send me an email with your address and how much you need, and solemnly promise that you will actually use the stuff and report the results back here.

Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

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RE: Arrival after a long resistor journey, posted on September 29, 2020 at 23:29:08
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
This is a real neat post for me.
Type of wire?
Would you like a source of wire for your experiments which is both known composition but also extremely high purity?
check out THIS link.

Thermocouple 'type' dictates composition. You might want to look at the various alloys available and maybe find something of interest to experiment with.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Arrival after a long resistor journey, posted on September 30, 2020 at 01:55:41
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 10427
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
Nice writing style Tim.

I would be interested in this wire except my main speakers are Quad 57's where the crossover is a transformer. But your diagnosis would be one explanation why some people go with the bi-tri amp route. There are 'autoformers' as well but I have no experience with those.

The only problem with the usual solutions is the cost involved. It would make perfect sense for engineers to design drivers with matching sensitivities - that would be a game changer for any diy'ers and manufacturers.



 

RE: Arrival after a long resistor journey, posted on September 30, 2020 at 11:26:00
Mike B.
Audiophile

Posts: 26352
Location: OR
Joined: September 27, 1999
Contributor
  Since:
September 1, 1999
I have not tried this method. I question the very small 34 gauge diameter. I spent quite a bit time substituting resistors in my crossovers. I found Mills to add a haze to the sound. My favorites were the caddock power resistors and Dale non inductive 50 watt resistors.


 

RE: Arrival after a long resistor journey, posted on September 30, 2020 at 12:06:31
madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
What is it that you question about the small gauge? Do you know how small the wire is inside most resistors, or voice coils, for that matter? That's where the resistance comes from! The temp coefficienct of Manganin is nearly zero, so the resistance remains stable as it heats. I wouldn't recommend it for power cords, but for tweeter duty, unless you like insanely loud music, it should be adequate. Unlikely because the exposed bare wire is 100% cooled by air, worst case is the wire melts and the circuit opens and your tweeter shuts off. If you'd been listening to music that loud for very long, you probably wouldn't even notice it!

I liked the Caddocks at first but after several months I tired of their artificial brightness, a sort of leading edge enhancement that made high frequencies, especially high strings, sound steely and imprecise. I still use them in the parallel circuit elements where they're stable but don't affect the sound as much.

I have read some good things about the Dale, but I haven't tried them myself at that power rating because of their clunky termination. Do you know anything about their composition? They're wirewound and I bet they're nichrome.

Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: Arrival after a long resistor journey, posted on September 30, 2020 at 12:08:54
madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
Guess you missed the point: I already have experimented and Manganin is the best alloy. Thanks for the link.
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: Arrival after a long resistor journey, posted on September 30, 2020 at 12:19:52
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
Manganin is a relative of one of the Thermocouple wires I mentioned.....Constantan.......

In your experiments, did you cross paths with the TC wires from the link?
Too much is never enough

 

Addendum: two huge advantages, posted on September 30, 2020 at 12:39:45
madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
Manganin has a tempco of nearly zero, so power compression is eliminated. This is likely one of the reasons one's system sounds "better" after it warms up. All the resistive elements become more resistive as they heat up. That's also a likely reason one experiences congestion at higher volumes. Can't fix the voice coils, but at least one variable is eliminated.

Also, the beauty of infinitely adjustable resistance allows one to truly tune their system's highs. A little too flat? Simply snip off a half-inch of wire and resolder. Or replace with a new wire a half-inch longer if things are a bit too bright. I have found that this wire with its smooth character allows for a slightly louder tweeter because all the annoying hash which can be perceived as excessive brightness is gone.

I tested this and other resistors with only the tweeters playing, no other drivers. The bare wire method allowed me to match levels precisely between channels, a critical factor for proper stereo imaging. Talk about holographic!

Peace,
Tom E


berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: Arrival after a long resistor journey, posted on September 30, 2020 at 12:48:02
madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
Manganin is far superior to Constantan in copper content of the alloy composition, tempco, and sound.

I haven't tried any of those other alloys. I can't imagine any being better than Manganin, which for a time was used as the international standard for the ohm. I wonder why no audiophile parts maker has made power resistors with it. Simple enough, not so very expensive.
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: Arrival after a long resistor journey, posted on September 30, 2020 at 15:14:19
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
Other applications seemed more....important, at the time.

Some TC wires use Platinum.

Type B, Type R and Type S all contain platinum in one of the 2 conductors. One is even 100% platinum on one side.

And don't forget the the 2 conductors are DIFFERENT alloys which is how a thermoelectric potential is produced.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Arrival after a long resistor journey, posted on September 30, 2020 at 16:56:06
madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
I'm sorry, but I don't at all understand what you're getting at. I'm not interested in thermocouples, which I think would be totally inappropriate for an audio application. I'm talking about a piece of wire, made of a single alloy.

Is there anything desirable about platinum, other than its expense?
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

Two resistors with copper-manganin foil, posted on September 30, 2020 at 17:07:01
tweakydee
Audiophile

Posts: 432
Location: VA
Joined: February 27, 2004
Here are two resistors with copper-manganin foil, though in low resistances.
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/mresist-mreu30.htmlv
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/powertron-fpr2-t218-resistors.html

 

RE: Arrival after a long resistor journey, posted on September 30, 2020 at 17:16:47
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
Thats for YOU to determine.
You somehow settled on a certain copper alloy. Fine. So now that is done, you are now longer interested in anything even potentially better....or perhaps just different.
That's the peak of religious fervor.

I'ts not about thermoelectric properties.
I'm only suggesting TC wire because it is VERY pure and exactly as advertised. NO mystery metal. All composition known.

And I'd further suggest.....as an aside.....that using mixed metals in a PHONO circuit is a bad idea. You can generat a few MV of offset thru the use of different alloys and metal at the various junctions.

That's IT, you apparently have Zero Vision or maybe more correctly Tunnel Vision....
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Arrival after a long resistor journey, posted on September 30, 2020 at 18:32:22
madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
You're a pretty condescending SOB, aren't you? I stated quite clearly that I have already made numerous experiments with different resistor types, and I shared my experiences with the forum. I didn't "somehow settle" on a particular alloy, but meticulously investigated and selected candidates and then gave them extensive trials. Manganin wire has properties that make it eminently suitable for use a resistor. My vision is pretty clear, but you seem to be obsessed with thermocouple material. What do you have to offer other than mystery materials with unknown sonic qualities? Must I explore every conductive alloy before I arrive at a satisfactory conclusion? It's hardly religious fervor to be happy with what one's got instead of endlessly chasing rainbows.

Instead of throwing darts at others, perhaps you'd be willing to share some practical knowledge gleaned from your own experiments.

And this has nothing to do with a phono circuit. Where did you get that harebrained idea? Did you even read and comprehend the original post?

Get the picture, guy?
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: Two resistors with copper-manganin foil, posted on September 30, 2020 at 18:41:04
madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
Thanks for that. It actually validates my own findings, albeit in a different but equally effective format. Yes, those show a lot of promise. The Mundorf are, typically for them, overly expensive, but the Powertrons would be worth a try, with a heatsink, of course.

Bulk metal foil resistors in general are very nice parts.
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: Arrival after a long resistor journey, posted on September 30, 2020 at 20:24:58
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
I DO think your experiments with power resitors are interesting.
And they jive with other persons experience.

I've seen draings of 'real' components. Nothing is 'pure' anything. So it should come as no surprie that a wirewound resistor exhibits non-linear effects at frequency.

As for wire? I noted the bimetalic effect for phone because I've seen lots of wirie combos used in that application and nobody has even noted that in conclusions. but I'm fairly certain it IS a player since phono cart output is so low. Even a few microvolts could make a difference.

For every person of condescension is a self-righteous type right across the isle.

Have fun....That'sall that REALLY matters.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Addendum: two huge advantages, posted on September 30, 2020 at 23:31:16
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
AH! I just looked at a chart of temp cooefficients.....took me a while ot figure out your shorthand

Yep.....your choice of manganin is top of the list. But unfortunately COPPER is not so good and is what is in most voice couls.

Is there ANY material with a 'negative' coefficient? Such that the net resistance of a system stays relitively the same?

I don't know the sensitivity of your final product speaker, but even at 100db, you are probably no more than 5% or 6% efficient. The remainder being heat......

Does that agree with your observations?
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Arrival after a long resistor journey, posted on October 1, 2020 at 10:22:03
Mike B.
Audiophile

Posts: 26352
Location: OR
Joined: September 27, 1999
Contributor
  Since:
September 1, 1999

That is partially true. The smaller value power resistors have quite a bit larger wire gauge. In my applications 3-4 ohm resistors are used. Several boutique power resistors are quite long which suggests to me the internal wire gauge is large up to a number of double digit ohm units. Photo is a 2 0hm 10 watt generic ceramic resistor as a reference to my comments.
I am sticking with what I have in place.



 

RE: Arrival after a long resistor journey, posted on October 1, 2020 at 11:09:16
madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
Thanks for the pic. What brand was it, if you can remember. Looks like nichrome wire, which is what I was trying to get away from due to its poor sonic qualities. It's what's inside your toaster!

The trade-off with larger wire is more power handling (and easier manufacturing) but a lot longer wire. In the case of nichrome, that means even worse sound. The resistance per inch drops rapidly as the gauge increases (simple math), so much more of it must be wound around the core, increasing inductance. There is contention over how much inductance of that magnitude matters at audio frequencies, but if it can be avoided, why not?

Stick with what you have (which is what?) if you like it. I try to suppress audio nervosa, but I do seek a better solution when I think there is one. I'm only sharing facts and my findings, not trying to persuade anyone.

Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: Arrival after a long resistor journey, posted on October 1, 2020 at 11:47:52
Mike B.
Audiophile

Posts: 26352
Location: OR
Joined: September 27, 1999
Contributor
  Since:
September 1, 1999
This was just a cheap NTE resistor. Don't want to break open a boutique wirewound.
My current setup are line sources with 10 Fountek 2.0 ribbon tweeters per side. I am using the Dale 50 watt 1% resistors. They are the units with a gold anodized aluminum housings.
I did take a look at the type wire you are using and yes the resistance per foot goes way down as wire size increases.
Enjoy your solution. If it works fine I can't fault it.



 

RE: "not a tweak for those who like to improve their system by replacing outlet covers", posted on October 2, 2020 at 08:58:18
Oooh, that's gonna leave a mark!

I have Duelund 8 Ohm CAST across my CD's as the final step in the 4Pi crossover. A small but worthwhile improvement in tone and clarity over other R's I tried. Be interesting to compare them to your wire but after the expense of the Duelund's, I don't have a Dollar.

Seriously though, until my hip surgery next month, I'm doing a little sitting at my bench but not able to take anything apart. The speaker stands last month were the last gasp. Maybe down the road.

 

RE: Arrival after a long resistor journey, posted on October 2, 2020 at 13:35:52
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
How are you laying out the conductor within each resistor. Coiled? Is there any packaging? I've never hand made resistors before. Would you mind sharing photos of your work? I wonder if they sell foils of this stuff.

 

RE: Arrival after a long resistor journey, posted on October 2, 2020 at 15:18:21
madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
Because the wires are only a few inches long, I'm simply stringing them in a straight line or loose U shape between xover parts. They might be subject to air borne vibration that way, but are also cooled more efficiently than if wrapped in tubing. I probably would find better protection if xover is inside speaker enclosure. If higher resistance values are required, longer wire would need to be folded somehow. I would avoid coiling, as it could produce excessive inductance.

There are Manganin foil resistors available from Parts Collective in UK. Wish I had known that beforehand. They do cost more and come in fixed values, but the packaging is more secure although as a consequence they require use of a readily available small heatsink.
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: "not a tweak for those who like to improve their system by replacing outlet covers", posted on October 2, 2020 at 15:21:48
madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
The Duelunds were nice but just not what I was after. And, yeah, they cost a bundle. Lots of people like them, but that might be because of the sunk investment as much as the sound.

Hope the hip thing works out. When you're ready and have saved up a dollar, there is still wire left over.
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

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