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To Tweaker; you are wrong below

72.78.206.251

Posted on May 21, 2017 at 16:29:55
After reading Pixelphoto's story below I decided to answer you with a new post rather than hijack his thread.
The fact you suggest and offer the size cap you did tells me you know nothing of the purpose of a safety cap and EMI filtering. Off the top of my head without using any test equipment to measure I would say Pixel has a better shot at achieving results than you. BIGGER IS NOT BETTER WHEN FILTERING NOISE.
As far as his choice of brand cap I'd say he made an informed if misguided choice. I'd bet a .01mf ceramic cap used there would perform the same.
I've added a link, that can be opened in another window to appease VINNIE2, that you and others can take some time and try to understand that there is some science behind all this and not just smoke and mirrors.
Regards
Mike

 

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RE: To Tweaker; you are wrong below, posted on May 22, 2017 at 03:44:25
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
Now that is the way it should be done, for both the thread and the link. Thanks.

 

Talk about smoke and mirrors Mikey, posted on May 22, 2017 at 07:32:10
Ceramic caps are NOT TO BE USED ACROSS THE AC LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are NOT SELF HEALING and are a FIRE HAZARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good one bro. I am thoroughly crushed and humiliated by your brutal take down. Once again, good work! I don't offer the advice of a larger TYPE X SAFETY capacitor OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. I do it because I have listened to larger caps and found that they sound better, as have others. THE ONLY WAY TO TELL IF SOMETHING SOUNDS BETTER IS TO LISTEN TO IT. Maybe Mikey would like it? Now go slither away instead of admitting you are wrong about the ceramic caps. A good thing about this forum is that wrong advice can be corrected as my use of large amount of capacitance from hot to ground was pointed out as being a shock hazard. Live and learn. Warmest T456

 

If you had taken the time, posted on May 22, 2017 at 08:24:52
Open the link, If I read the data sheet correctly it's an X1 / y2 ceramic capacitor. NSBAAIYCSI.

 

RE: If you had taken the time, posted on May 22, 2017 at 09:30:13
You didn't mention the specific cap in the text. Technically the specific Kemet cap is a safety cap. I read that they are not UL approved. They are not self healing. In failure mode they have a tendency to short as opposed to open in failure mode and over time they can or do become unstable. I myself would never use one of these because #1 they are not self healing,#2 IMHO it is very unlikely that a ceramic cap would sound as good or better than a metallized PP cap and #3 they are, In my experience and other close observers experience larger caps sound better so I wouldn't begin to consider something this small in value. I won't admit I was completely wrong about this but I'll throw in a partial amount of wrongness. Up to maybe 30% or so. T456

 

RE: If you had taken the time, posted on May 22, 2017 at 16:48:44
beautox
Manufacturer

Posts: 366
Location: New Plymouth
Joined: July 9, 2013
It's pretty funny hearing t456 complaining about safety when not so long ago he was suggesting replacing fuses with wire.

 

My "suggesting" using wire and no fuse from not so long ago, posted on May 22, 2017 at 20:07:48
Fuse tweak
Posted by Tweaker456 (A) on January 28, 2012 at 14:11:20
In Reply to: I ONLY WISHED THEY HAD THESE FUSES MANY YEARS AGO WHEN I FIRST GOT IN THIS HOBBY !!.......(NT) posted by HiFiSoundGuy on January 13, 2012 at 20:44:02:

Hows about no fuse at all, solid wire, thats if you got the kahonies.Yo, don't forget to silver grease the fuse or wire. Silver grease in the PS is not bright, just the opposite. You can dampen a fuse, if you decide you don't have the guts ( or stupidity) to go unprotected, with electronics grade silicon. Tweaker
"The Borg is the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced."

- Q, 2365

 

RE: To Tweaker; you are wrong below, posted on May 23, 2017 at 18:32:59
BIGGER IS BETTER WHEN FILTERING NOISE, up to a point, way way way way beyond .01-.3uf. One reason is that some people can hear the improvement and most likely the reason that Type X noise filtering caps are made up to at least 10uf. 1000 TIMES BIGGER then the .01 ceramic you mentioned. T456 1000 TIMES BIGGER. Oh, I already wrote that. Sorry. I hope that this post meets with Duster's approval.

 

RE: If you had taken the time, posted on May 23, 2017 at 19:52:36
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
1.if they were not self healing enough to not be a fire hazard there is no way UL would let them be sold with the mark. 2 depends on the application. The ceramics can can be critical in applications where film capacitor construction (read series inductance) limits their response. 3. It may not be wise to write ceramics off entirely.

 

RE: If you had taken the time, posted on May 23, 2017 at 21:21:04
Ug, ceramic caps are not self healing at all as far as what I read from Kemet and other places. Of course they are fire resistant. Kemet in their literature doesn't seem all that enthusiastic about their use. They even have an alternative to ceramics that have a safer failure mode, see below link. These are rated Y but I myself don't like the idea of a short as a failure mode when used across the line compared to an open. Anyhow,as stated many times, this is mute. Larger caps sound better IMO and other's opinions. The larger caps, up to 10uf are made by Kemet for EMI suppression for a reason. And the reason is so audio folks can buy them, listen to them, realize how fantastic they sound and get back to Tweaker and tell him what a freakin genus he is. I rest my case, maybe. Tweaker456 You have to scroll down almost to the end to get to the PHE850 discription.

 

RE: If you had taken the time, posted on May 24, 2017 at 06:09:15
Ugly
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Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
Who cares if they are not self healing if the current paths in the faults are such high resistance that there is no danger of fire? For example: if a momentary arc is established during some transient and the chemical result of the plasma and the ceramic, air, etc is a high resistance substance that passes little to no current, and the arc nearly immediately self extinguishes, OR if through rigorous testing it could be established the construction is such that it can be guaranteed the risk of dielectric failure when used per rating approaches zero, what is the danger there?

Let's take another angle...UL can be sued. Do you really think Kemet or UL would survive in america selling UL approved capacitors that burned down houses protected by american insurance companies with all their lawyers in this sue happy place?

Kemet not enthusiastic about their use? Where do you get that idea?

"Larger caps sound better IMO and other's opinions"

So now you are saying you've tried every conceivable environment with every conceivable configuration of electronics then? cause that is what it would take in order to form such a broad ranging, blanket opinion. In case you didn't notice, this task would be all but impossible to accomplish for mortal man and that is why I and others would call BS on such statements.

 

RE: If you had taken the time, posted on May 24, 2017 at 09:37:19
Ug, According what I read on the net is that their ceramics are NOT UL approved. Kemet's own discription of their "new" non ceramic capacitors are that they are safer in failure mode. Of course they are tested and safe in most cases because failure is a rare event and doesn't always mean some sort of catastrophe. All anyone has to do to see if it works for them is to try it. It's a very easy and safe tweak. And yes, of course I have tried every cap ever made against a .01 ceramic. Great criticism bro. I would prefer to be criticized after 20 or thirty people took a few minutes to wire up a 10uf or so ac rated Type X cap , compared it to a very small cap like .01-.3uf and have hardly anyone hear the difference.

 

RE: If you had taken the time, posted on May 24, 2017 at 09:58:50
They are not UL or CSA certified. Kemet says they are not needed. They are vigorously tested by others. Looks like they are tested to at least 8000 volts in a pulse test. Probably a lot higher pulse tests than in the self healing caps. I stand by my assertion that for audio that a "higher quality cap" and a much larger cap will sound better to many people able to perceive what I believe is a not so subtle difference. This is what a tweaker's forum is about, IMO. I am not the only person who has perceived this. What ever you do don't try it for yourself. That would be a BIG mistake, would be very time consuming and expensive. And if, in the extreme unlikelihood you heard a positive difference you would be then subject to cognitive dissonance. We wouldn't want that, now would we? On the up side if you didn't hear something positive you could come back and try to make me look bad again. Much more important to some on Tweaker's Assylum than, shall we say, tweaking. Tweaking on tweaker's assylum, wow, what a concept. T456

 

RE: If you had taken the time, posted on May 24, 2017 at 11:29:41
Palustris
Audiophile

Posts: 2407
Location: Cape Cod
Joined: September 12, 2008
"Anyhow,as stated many times, this is mute."

Is there any prediction as to when you will be mute?

 

RE: If you had taken the time, posted on May 24, 2017 at 12:26:19
Well, let's see. I'm 65. My mother is 94. An uncle just past on at 100. Should give you some idea. I read that only one in ten thousand reach 100 so there is some hope for you and Duster et al. Warm regards, Tweaker456

 

RE: Did you read the data sheet?, posted on May 24, 2017 at 13:03:28
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
The parts linked by the OP clearly are UL approved as the data sheet describes the graphics on the package and calls the UL mark a "UL approval mark".

With the X1 rating they are only verified to 2500V impulses but will typically be rated much lower for continuous basis, ie with something like 260 VAC continuous rating.

That you seem to be implying I have no desire to try the biggest capacitors money can buy would be an indication you have no idea what you are talking about. I prefer to take a more scientific approach to filter design and will use whatever makes sense to get the job done.

 

Yes I looked at the data sheet, posted on May 24, 2017 at 13:53:41
Search Results
[PDF]safety certified capacitors - Kemet
www.kemet.com/Lists/.../900%20Series%20Product%20Training%20Module.pdf
not cause electrical shock, but it could open safety fuses or circuit breakers and cause fire. ... KEMET 900 Series Safety Disc Capacitors are offered with a combination ... KEMET 900 Series devices do not have UL or CSA certifications. It is not ( me-I tried to link this but had trouble for some reason. They state on page 10 that they are not UL or CSA certified and that they don't need to be. If you google 900 series capacitors not UL certified you will come up with this. Open and go to page 10.)

 

Link to 900 series data sheet I first looked at is now working, posted on May 24, 2017 at 14:04:00
It looks like Kemet may have two different info sheets on this series of capacitors. This time I got the link to work. Page 10. You think I would just make something like this up? The statement of lack of UL certification is in their own literature. Maybe they were compelled to update?? A bit strange. Tweaker456

 

RE: Yes I looked at the data sheet, posted on May 24, 2017 at 14:33:40
Ugly
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Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
You have to be really careful with language when it comes to the lawyers, UL and all that. The parts in question are UL recognized, and are marked as such. You can be certain UL would not allow this to continue unless UL felt they were up to the task. UL has it's own really good lawyers to ensure this kind of thing and you can trust me when I say they aren't afraid to use them. I'm not sure what you mean when you state they aren't certified, as per data sheet they are recognized and presumably meet the minimum requirements to display that level of UL mark for that purpose.

The 900 series may not all be recognized parts but the ones with the mark almost certainly are!

 

RE: Recognized, posted on May 24, 2017 at 15:03:10
cdb
Audiophile

Posts: 2948
Joined: April 6, 2001
Recognized means that a component is not Listed as a stand-alone device to be used any which way an end-user might try, but if used as part of an assembly or larger device, and that device is Listed.

A common example is industrial control panels.

 

RE: Yes I looked at the data sheet, posted on May 24, 2017 at 15:18:20
I would guess that approval and certification mean the same thing. If you blow up the photo of the cap on the link I saw first and sent there is no UL approval printing on it. Usually one is on pretty solid ground when quoting direct from the horses mouth. So you can see that I didn't make it up. Something changed. I would still be happier and it looks like Kemet agrees, with a cap that is more likely to fail in a open than in a short. Rare events. Much happier with a "better quality cap" of larger value. Your mileage may vary. Are you not the least bit curious if my opinion along with the opinion of at least the person who wrote "The Great Capacitor Shootout" has any merit from a direct experience? To get the job done? Well Kemet thinks that much larger caps get some job done in relation to EMI filtering.Why would they make them otherwise? What job I'm talking about is improvement in subjective sound quality. I've tried weird tweaks with both amazement and other respected tweaks with no perception of improvement and even degradation. But I at least gave them a shot. Hey, digits are digits,right? T456

 

RE: Recognized, posted on May 24, 2017 at 15:34:58
Interesting info. So now we have recognized, approved and certified. T456

 

The symbol on the caps is the "ULR us" symbol which is for "recognized" afaik. n/t, posted on May 24, 2017 at 17:50:21
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006

 

No approval., posted on May 24, 2017 at 19:59:43
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002




 

RE: To Tweaker; you are wrong below, posted on May 24, 2017 at 20:12:03
gordguide
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Joined: January 20, 2002
" ...Well, let's see. I'm 65. My mother is 94. An uncle just past on at 100. Should give you some idea. I read that only one in ten thousand reach 100 ..."

I suppose 1:10,000 is the ratio where you live?

Here (Saskatchewan Canada) it's 1 per 2,935.

 

RE: To Tweaker; you are wrong below, posted on May 24, 2017 at 21:59:17
Just a round figure I read. It must be the omega 3's up where you live. Anyhow, it won't effect the sound of your stereo. The size and type of ac filter cap likely will, IMO. T456

 

Gee, posted on May 25, 2017 at 14:33:41
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37460
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
April 5, 2002
You didn't mention the specific cap in the text.

I guess he thought you would follow the provided link to view the suggested cap. That's what I did.

I read that they are not UL approved.

Then you didn't click the link he provided. Here again is the data sheet. Note text on the right column where you find:

"These encapsulated devices also meet the flame test requirements outlined in UL Standard 94V-0."

Speed reading doesn't always work very well. :)

 

RE: Gee, posted on May 25, 2017 at 18:09:42
Gee. Have you tried a small and large cap as an ac filter to see if a fundamental reason for commenting on this subject has any merit in your system according to your ears? Do you have any opinion on if you think it a bit safer to use a self healing cap that has a greater tendency to fail as an open in failure mode? The caps in question are the 900 series which is clearly in the data info. Now how often do you see two different data sheets on the same part with this kind of difference? Pointing out that I read that they were not UL approved was not to say they they passed no safety standard, they obviously did. Please keep on posting your potentially useful suggestions to help people get better sound with little effort or expense. Maybe you can tell us all why o why Kemet and other capacitor makers make many sizes of EMI filtering caps from very small all the way up to 10uf. I don't see any engineer from Kemet telling me I'm deaf and full of shit for suggesting larger caps. How many times larger is 10uf than .01uf? You can use 2.2uf if you like.

 

I merely made two points, posted on May 25, 2017 at 18:24:56
E-Stat
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April 5, 2002
1. You complained that he did not describe the suggested cap. The link supplied in his post did that.

2. You said that "you read" that the one he recommended was not UL approved. The datasheet found on the supplied link clearly said that it was.

You simply jumped the gun without looking at the reference, that's all.

Chill.

 

Thank you for the clarification. nt, posted on May 25, 2017 at 18:53:37
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006

 

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