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12Ax7 Baldwin Raytheon Japan - Toshiba or NEC?

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Posted on January 25, 2021 at 12:51:49
Al Fris
Audiophile

Posts: 8
Location: Москва
Joined: November 12, 2020



Hi all.
I have several 12Ax7A tubes with the following codes:

Baldwin pianos organs (bluish/greenish print)
Made in Japan
P28064-09C
3K

280 indicates Raytheon.
Further, 64 could indicate 1964, but browsing through the web I came across the opinion that "3K" refers to 1963 ("K" is a week or month).

Finally, what can be said about the actual manufacturer? Usually on internet forums, Baldwin Raytheon Japan tubes are attributed to Toshiba. But here it is claimed that Raytheon contracted with NEC: https://books.google.ru/books?id=GU-_LnIOwWUC&pg=PA405&dq=raytheon+nippon+electric&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiDl-u5kurtAhWFtYsKHb_YC7IQ6AEwAHoECAMQAg#v=onepage&q=raytheon%20nippon%20electric&f=false

 

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RE: 12Ax7 Baldwin Raytheon Japan - Toshiba or NEC?, posted on January 26, 2021 at 11:09:23
el34eh@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1933
Location: Michigan
Joined: September 6, 2003




Hitachi purchased Raytheon around 1961, which are their most commonly found grey plates, I'd have to wager based upon actually owning Toshiba | NEC | TEN Kobe based designs, these don't sound like any of them, as I responded to someone's post last year, I find to my ears | senses Hitachi were my least desirable ones.

 

RE: 12Ax7 Baldwin Raytheon Japan - Toshiba or NEC?, posted on January 26, 2021 at 22:51:34
Al Fris
Audiophile

Posts: 8
Location: Москва
Joined: November 12, 2020
 Thanks for your informative reply (as usually). Hitachi is indeed a third version about the origin of Japanese Raytheon tubes. Unfortunately Japanese tube codes are too poorly described.

 

RE: 12Ax7 Baldwin Raytheon Japan - Toshiba or NEC?, posted on January 27, 2021 at 11:16:13
el34eh@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1933
Location: Michigan
Joined: September 6, 2003




You're more than welcome........, as someone whom as far back as 2004, gained the assistance of learning about certain makes of tubes from around the globe | having the willingness to explore said brands according to the different factories within any given country, it became very very clear, that say for example the most commonly found Mullard based designs are from their Blackburn factory, when in fact there were 2 other factories producing Mullard tubes which are more desirable amongst those in the know, which only than pursue the versions made within these two " only ", hence again the logic of certain makes being available, as these same music lovers, simply don't settle for 2nd or 3rd best.

Case in point, while some praise the 5751's, I've always found them lacking in dynamic capabilities, and much preferred to use a standard 12AT7 | E81CC as a means of lowering the gain | noise within certain makes of 5751 types........, the only exception to the rule was coming across a quad of TEN Kobe 5751's, which were the only version I'd ever live with, or remotely allowed within spitting distance of my system.

Enjoy the quest.
O_o scar

 

RE: 12Ax7 Baldwin Raytheon Japan - Toshiba or NEC?, posted on January 27, 2021 at 11:20:25
Al Fris
Audiophile

Posts: 8
Location: Москва
Joined: November 12, 2020
 Very interesting about Mullard. What two factories other than Blackburn do you mean?

 

RE: 12Ax7 Baldwin Raytheon Japan - Toshiba or NEC?, posted on January 27, 2021 at 12:23:32
el34eh@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1933
Location: Michigan
Joined: September 6, 2003




To my ears their best made | sounding tubes were produced in the Fleetwood ( code G ) | Tottenham ( code J which produced some of the earlier Tungsram tubes, which I happen to adore ) | Mitcham ( code R ), when all else fails in regards to finding these tubes?, it's best to go to the source of their origin, namely eBay U.K..

And if you'd love to hear a very similar design, as they used ( purchased ) the tooling from Mullard during the 60's, be open minded to sample a few of the Matsushita made tubes, often known as the Japanese Mullard, and for good reason I'd add........, but in truth a more balanced tube top to bottom | quieter to boot are Brimar Long Black Plates ( not Grey ) with Square Getters Circa 1950-57.

 

RE: 12Ax7 Baldwin Raytheon Japan - Toshiba or NEC?, posted on January 27, 2021 at 13:23:03
Al Fris
Audiophile

Posts: 8
Location: Москва
Joined: November 12, 2020
 I always learn something new from your postings.
I have Heathkit W-5M with Matsushita/Mullard KT66 (real Matsushita/Mullard with the N-code; the n-code refers to another Matsushita factory which had probably nothing to do with Mullard), and I like it!

 

Did someone nick your speakers?, posted on January 27, 2021 at 14:10:41
Sondek
Audiophile

Posts: 9630
Location: Fort Worth
Joined: May 17, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Nice pic, but no speakers?

I've never used an AT7, but the 5751 in place of and AX7 is very common sub many folks like. Some designers, like Ken Stevens of CAT, specifically warn against using a 5751 in the spots in his preamp that are designed for the 12AX7. At least in part, Mr. Stevens warning is also based the claim that the 5751 constrains dynamics of his preamp. He designed it, so I see no reason not to take him at his word.

In the past I've used a 5751 in place of an AX7 more like a tone control in my CD player which has a tubed output stage. Used the 5751 to balance the sound of an RFT 12AU7 in the circuit with it. Although I no longer use the 5751 in that CD player, it did provide an excellent counterbalance to the rather clinical sounding RFT.



 

RE: Did someone nick your speakers?, posted on January 27, 2021 at 15:07:16
el34eh@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1933
Location: Michigan
Joined: September 6, 2003




Hey there Sondek ( and having own two different vintages of said Turntable | Circa 1989 and 1993 before going over to Well Tempered Labs ) OMG I forgot to show the speakers......., as I tend to save photos into my gallery as visual reminders of items I'm fond of, or wish that I'd own ( said mini-monitors will be added to this post ) and having heard my share of CAT tube gear in the past, it seems I'm not the only one to hear said 5751's lacking, yet as someone whom once again starting buying different tubes back in 2004, found the tandem of Tungsram 12AX7 ( Black or Nickel Plated NOS 1950s ) | RFT 12AU7 NOS 1954-59, as there were 4 different phases between 1954-1982 where the earlier versions weren't as spot lite to put it kindly.

This was at the time one of the best sounding combinations I had ever stumbled across ( like in period ) which had a Wow | Fun Factor second to none, what wonderful memories thinking about these, has bought a single tear from my eyes.

Stay well, Sondek.
O_o.

 

RE: 12Ax7 Baldwin Raytheon Japan - Toshiba or NEC?, posted on January 27, 2021 at 15:12:56
el34eh@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1933
Location: Michigan
Joined: September 6, 2003




Like minds | ears seemingly always find others whom understand.

Muzak Non-Stop, in the end it's how ones voicing of their systems, via cabling | tubes allows to to become more firmly connected to the Music itself, which counts most in my mind, if it doesn't speak to me on a purely emotional level, what's the purpose of owning such gear?.

 

RE: 12Ax7 Baldwin Raytheon Japan - Toshiba or NEC?, posted on March 18, 2021 at 14:04:21
opalize
Audiophile

Posts: 109
Location: NorCal
Joined: March 18, 2021
 These "Raytheon" tubes were made by Toshiba. Toshiba tubes can be identified by their unique plate construction. See the large rectangular section of the plate face? That indicates Toshiba.

 

RE: 12Ax7 Baldwin Raytheon Japan - Toshiba or NEC?, posted on April 3, 2021 at 09:07:49
Mendel
Audiophile

Posts: 1207
Location: GTA
Joined: January 17, 2009
 Interesting comment regarding dynamics of 5751 tubes.
I have long rotated various 12ax7s and 5751s in the imput position of my Rogue amp. For a long time I preferred the best 5751s (Sylvania black plates, Raytheon windmills, etc) but recently have grown a little dissatisfied and have been using 12ax7s more often. I always felt 5751s were more focused, while 12ax7s seemed bigger sounding. Maybe it is an issue of dynamics. Currently using early Amperex 12ax7s with the larger getter and white treble clef marking. Very dynamic with good bass. Enjoy the roll!

 

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