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Opinions on 6P3S for Hi-Fi ?

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Posted on May 7, 2017 at 11:12:32
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10042
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 Any opinions about the sound and reliability of these tubes when they're used as 6L6 replacements? I'm referring to the 6P3S, not the 6P3S-E. The 6P3S is only rated for about 19W and can only be used to replace a tube in the 6L6 category (not higher dissipation tubes like the 6L6GC, 6L6WGT, or 5881). I'm rebuilding a few amps that use 18-19W tubes, and the 6P3S is still pretty cheap on eBay. I'm thinking this might be a good time to buy a small quantity, but only if they're worthwhile.






 

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RE: Opinions on 6P3S for Hi-Fi ?, posted on May 7, 2017 at 14:13:14
DAK
Audiophile

Posts: 2712
Location: PACIFIC
Joined: August 8, 2010
 They are ok, but i think metal 6l6 sound better. You can still get metal 6l6 for cheap too.

 

Metal 6L6 Better?, posted on May 7, 2017 at 16:33:50
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10042
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 Are there others who think the metal 6L6 (1614) sounds better? I'd like to know if there's a general consensus about that. NOS metal versions are considerably more expensive, and to be honest, I hate the way they look. Still, if the Russians are sonically poor performers, that would change my mind. :)

 

The Russian 6P3SE certainly aren't poor performers., posted on May 7, 2017 at 17:02:14
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
 Those tubes not only sound like an RCA 6L6GC black plate in many ways,they also last a long time.

Now getting back to the 6L6 and 1614 metal tubes,they do have a sonic purity and uniqueness that is undeniable. Mcintosh obviously liked them but audio seems to thrive on the moment. I would say the metal tubes are much better than what their perception has been over the years.Lets be honest here.You and I both know that physical appearance plays a major role in how several people will see these tubes regardless of how they sound.
IMHO,they sound fabulous.I never did spec test them in an amplifier tho.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

Did you misread the thread?, posted on May 7, 2017 at 20:00:04
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10042
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 We're discussing the 6P3S, not the 6P3S-E. Have you ever compared the 6P3S to a metal 6L6?


 

RE: Metal 6L6 Better?, posted on May 7, 2017 at 20:43:43
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12359
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001
 FWIW, I had a friend who had a pair of Mac MC30s and he bounced back and forth betw metal 6L6/1614 and the 6P3 (not SE) labeled as "made in Germany" 6L6 GCs which they obviously are not. They sounded pretty much the same to us: not entirely surprising given that the Mac is a high feedback design that probably tends to minimize differences in the finals. The 6P3s were prone to dull redplating most of the time but never blew up. Don't know what was going on with the plates of the metal 6L6s but they sure ran hot in those amps.

VTV ran a 6L6 shootout many years ago. IIRC, they liked the 6P3 better than the 6P3SE. Don't recall if this was in MI or HIFI amps.

 

RE: Metal 6L6 Better?, posted on May 7, 2017 at 22:49:37
DAK
Audiophile

Posts: 2712
Location: PACIFIC
Joined: August 8, 2010
 To me they sound a little cleaner in my SEP amps. But i have not compared them to the Russian as i don't have any of that type unless they are buried with other tubes. Although compared against glass 6l6g they still have a tidier presentation. very nice. If you can get the VT type i have a quad that i plug in once in awhile and they are excellent.

 

RE: Opinions on 6P3S for Hi-Fi ?, posted on May 7, 2017 at 23:01:07
awesterner
Audiophile

Posts: 23
Location: Seattle
Joined: May 7, 2017
 The 6P3S I used extensively when I was a newb. They sound good if you use them within their limits. I always used them cathode bias. If the plate voltage exceeds 380 V, they sound harsh/strident. If you follow the Russian datasheet and keep voltage conservative, they sound very sweet. They sound very good when used with XFMRs designed for 6V6 or EL84. I also used them with XFMRs designed for 6L6GB and they sounded good, but not as good as the -E version. I used them with the Edcor UL XFMRs and (no surprise) they sound good IF you keep the voltage conservative. as I recall, I keep the current (per tube) at about 35 ma.
The real surprise with these tubes was when I made push=pull=parallel monoblock amps with them. They sounded GREAT. i had offers to buy them, and did not have them listed for sale.

 

RE: Opinions on 6P3S for Hi-Fi ?, posted on May 8, 2017 at 06:32:50
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10042
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 That's very interesting, for several reasons. I've come to believe over the last few years that the larger 6P3S-E needs more than +400V to sound right. Most of the amps I'm rebuilding are right around that voltage, and that's one of the reasons I asked about the smaller 6P3S. I did try the 6P3S in a +400V amplifier several years ago, and I saw the red plating that Steve O mentions below. That particular amplifier was originally equipped with US 6L6GCs, but it ran them at +400V, well under their spec. That's the reason I thought the 6P3S might be OK. I don't remember the anode current now, but even at 35mA each, they'd be operating at much less than the common online spec of 20W dissipation.

Maybe the 6P3S needs to be limited to dissipation below 15W or so in order to keep the plates from showing color. If that's correct, it might be a better candidate for amplifiers using +350V or less. In fact, I've wondered if it would be useful as a high quality 6V6 substitute, and it's interesting to hear that you've tried that with good results. I do have several 6V6 amps to rebuild, and a larger filament transformer would be an easy addition. That type of modification is certainly less expensive than buying quads of NOS or upper-end 6V6 reissues.


 

RE: Opinions on 6P3S for Hi-Fi ?, posted on May 8, 2017 at 07:03:15
krankkall
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Location: New Mexico
Joined: April 5, 2014
 FWIW...........................................

I've been using NOS 6L6GB tubes in similar situations.
They are NOT nearly as popular, compared to similar 6L6G and 6L6GA tubes.
Thus prices for them are often quite inexpensive.

Steve

 

RE: Opinions on 6P3S for Hi-Fi ?, posted on May 8, 2017 at 16:18:34
awesterner
Audiophile

Posts: 23
Location: Seattle
Joined: May 7, 2017
 An often-overlooked solution is to go with 12V6 instead of 6V6. I build from scratch, my own designs, and I use 12 volt heater circuits because it is easy to rectify and filter and, after the circuit is loaded down, it comes right in at 12 VDC or maybe a fraction of a volt over every time. This does help reduce hum.
NOS 12V6 is every bit as good as NOS 6V6 but WITHOUT the hefty price tag. you can still get NOS 12V6 all day long. The Conn Organ ones are usually black plates. They are simply rebranded tubes. So, you have options.

When I stated "as I recall, i used 35 ma per tube," that was the last amp I built using them, and I did use a higher B+ than I would have liked. I think that is why I ran them at 35 ma. I THINK on lower voltage B+ I used quiescent current in the low 40s. It's been quite some time, so details are a little fuzzy in my mind. I haven't played with them much in the last 3 years or so.

I have branched off into screen drive with sweep tubes, and that is more forgiving of high B+.

 

RE: Opinions on 6P3S for Hi-Fi ?, posted on May 8, 2017 at 20:13:15
twystd
Audiophile

Posts: 2723
Location: Austin,Texas
Joined: December 9, 2000
 We were tube rolling in modded Dynaco ST-70s that belonged to my brother and another friend. We unanimously preferred the 6P3S-e over the 6P3S, however we never tried them at lower voltage. We were running them right at 20-21 watts dissipation, not far from your 18-19 watt area of interest. How they stack up to other 6L6s, I don't know, the only other tubes we rolled were EL34s (Mullards), and older stock JJ E34Ls (both tube types broken in). We didn't have a high opinion of the 6P3s, but to be fair they weren't broken in, but neither were the 6P3S-Es which we preferred over all.

twystd

 

RE: Did you misread the thread?, posted on May 9, 2017 at 00:34:17
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
 I must have.I was reading from your post on the metal 6L6 NOS tubes on my I-phone and I didn't scroll up apparently. I don't have any 6P3S tubes but U trust Twystd's opinion on this.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Opinions on 6P3S for Hi-Fi ?, posted on May 9, 2017 at 09:51:17
Alpha Al
Industry Professional

Posts: 2958
Location: N. Carolina
Joined: February 16, 2004
Contributor
  Since: December 3, 2015



If I'm not mistaken, that is the same tube that Groove Tubes marketed as 6V6HD (heavy duty?).

That was a good many years ago, when good 6V6 types were hard to get, before the Russian TungSol and EH were available.

Those did require different bias, as I recall.

 

RE: Opinions on 6P3S for Hi-Fi ?, posted on May 9, 2017 at 11:34:46
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10042
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 I don't understand how they could market those as 6V6 replacements. The 6P3S - which is what they actually are - requires twice the heater current.

 

Totally agree Michael, however the metal 6V6{any kind} Suck like an electrolux`nT, posted on May 9, 2017 at 15:18:16
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7550
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 ~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: Did you misread the thread?, posted on May 10, 2017 at 01:09:08
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7550
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 for what it is worth many years ago I had a set ... in a word, meh.

Metal 6L6 are ugly but they sing beautifully. During this time I had a quad of Chinese ST shoulder 6L6 and they walked all over the 6P3S, but as usual for most Chinese glass back then; in less than a year, three of the four died.

I HAVE had one metal 6L6 short out which caused the amp to catch on fire and dim the lights in the living room {was not in the listening room} which alerted me to the above. Am now slightly perturbed that I can't see what is going on inside the metal tubes.


The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: Opinions on 6P3S for Hi-Fi ?, posted on May 10, 2017 at 08:36:30
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10042
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 Yes, I'm a big fan of 12V equivalent tubes. The thing is, NOS sleeves or matching quads (same date codes) of 12V6s are becoming difficult to find. I have a decent stash, but I'm still thinking about building all my new designs with a 6V/12V switch for the outputs. There's probably no point in substituting the 6P3S into any of these amplifiers.

 

RE: Did you misread the thread?, posted on May 10, 2017 at 15:18:18
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
 Agreed!
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Opinions on 6P3S for Hi-Fi ?, posted on May 10, 2017 at 15:34:06
awesterner
Audiophile

Posts: 23
Location: Seattle
Joined: May 7, 2017
 http://vacuumtubes.net/
worth browsing through.

 

RE: Opinions on 6P3S for Hi-Fi ?, posted on May 10, 2017 at 19:53:50
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10042
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 That's Jim Cross in Orlando, FL. He screwed me on a large purchase of defective 7-pin 1625 sockets some time back. He offered to make good on a few, then stopped communicating. Cost me almost $100, and it was nearly a total loss.




 

RE: Opinions on 6P3S for Hi-Fi ?, posted on May 10, 2017 at 23:12:40
awesterner
Audiophile

Posts: 23
Location: Seattle
Joined: May 7, 2017
 ewwww. Sorry. I was led to believe this outfit was thee major supplier for smaller vendors. Guess I better break out the tube tester. I got a batch of the 12-volt 9-pin version of 6SN7 from him, 12FQ7.

 

RE: Opinions on 6P3S for Hi-Fi ?, posted on May 25, 2017 at 11:40:28
fredeb
Audiophile

Posts: 1
Location: Western Cape
Joined: May 25, 2017
 I was quite happy to see this post - I really like the 6P3S . A while ago I purchased 36 of them and proceeded to current match them on my modified ST-70 . I swopped the 5AR4 in the ST-70 for a Russian 5C4M - this reduced Anode voltage to about 415V . I then adjusted bias to minimum and set balance adj. to the center position . I then use the ST-70 as a tube tester to current match the tubes , and then sort them into matched or closely matched quads .

The spread at 415V range ( within my 36 valves ) from 30 to 50 mA . One tube ran over 70 mA and two in the mid to high 50's . I gave the highest current quad to fellow South African valve aficionado , warning him that this was the hottest running quad and should be used at low anode voltages .

The hotter running remaining tubes ( 40-50 mA ) I run in Quad 2 monoblocks with the same 5C4M rectifier ( 5C3S also works ) , with bias resistors values increased from 180e to 250e ( 4x 1K 1 watt resistors in parallel ) .

The cooler running quads ( 30-40 mA ) I use in the Dynaco and bias to ~85% dissipation ( ~17W per tube ) using Rob Robinette's online bias calculator to find desirable bias setting .

Compared to a Quad of vintage CV1947's , and 3 sets of EL34's ( Mullard , JJ EL34L's and EH's ) they sound pretty good ; in the Quad 2's or ST-70 . I love 'em . :)

For the money , I reckon you can't go wrong .


" When in doubt, do the courageous thing. " - Jan Smuts

 

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