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Buy tubes from the right vendor that meets your needs because they do sound different.

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Posted on April 22, 2017 at 03:11:37
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005



From the beginning of hifi audio tubes, whether it be triodes,Pentodes,or tetrodes,there has been a lot of brand relabeling from manufacturers. Take the KT88 GEC/Genelex products you see in the picture.I put one out of each type that are supposedly different from each other.The one on the left is a GEC CV series made for the military,the next one is a GEC made for consumer electronics,the next is a US Genelex labeled Monarch,supposedly more durable and made for industry,the next is the US Genelex labeled put in a lot of 1960s tube amps.The next is a blue label Genelex,maybe an aftermarket replacement? The last one is a single flasher Genelex.
If you look at these tubes close,the internal structure is virtually identical.The only difference is the last one with three ring halos all being at the top for single getter flashing.
You might ask,why do you they do this? It is called marketing.Back in the day when everything with an amplifier used tubes, whether it be in industry,home use,or military applications,these companies had to fight like hell to beat out their competitors and a lot of that marketing came into labeling.
Even tho these tubes have identical construction,they did test different and therefore sounded different in some ways.They could have tested for transconductance,innerelectrode capacitance,vacuum purity,and then labeled their tubes accordingly.I have 8 or 9 of the sealed in the bag Genelex with a data sheet that were given to me by a Ford production engineer.I didn't open them because I have an opened quad of ones I got years ago with Data sheets and I never liked the sound of them.I posted them on here before.They were industrial application tubes no doubt.
The GEC and Genelex labeled ones that had no data sheet,sounded much better so that tells me that industries like Ford Motor company were not looking for audio purity,but durability in this case.
This goes back to my original title theme.Today,we still have the same issues confronting us but to a different extent.Many dealers that sell tubes, sell them as factory matched quads but I can tell you that factory matching is not what most people think it is.Keep in mind that the tube manufacturers lean heavily toward the guitar market and much of their testing and matching is set up for that market which is centered on early distortion in many cases. Being audiophiles,we look for the opposite of this. We want max power,lowest distortion,and flattest response and sellers like Jim McShane test for these very things.Sure,you can buy a factory matched quad on Ebay and maybe get lucky but more times than not,these tubes don't suit our needs even tho they sound ok.I have some friends that will drop five grand on new cables,but they will buy their tubes at a place they can save 10 or 15 dollars on a quad.I just go over and plunk my tubes in their amp and make their head's spin.This is why properly matched tubes tested for hifi applications will yield bigger improvements than spending a month's salary on new cables many times.I still have my original KT66 and KT88 reissue Genelexs I got from Jim McShane back in 2007 or 2008 and they still have all their flashing other than a slight rainbow ring around the flashing edge and these are the tubes I use 90% of the time.They still bias perfectly and there is no unbalanced glow in one tube vs the other that you often get with factory matched tubes.The way Jim McShane tests and matches his tubes is one of the big reasons for the long life and superb sound I have been getting from the reissue Genelexs. Rest assured that McIntosh,Audio Research,and Conrad Johnson reject a lot of new tubes just as automobile manufacturers reject tons of tires.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

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RE: Buy tubes from the right vendor that meets your needs because they do sound different., posted on April 22, 2017 at 04:52:04
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1308
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
I've noticed this is especially true for small signal tubes such as the 12AX7. However, my primary amp uses a pair of 6BL7 as the input/phase splitter, and a quad of 1625 tubes for each monoblock. There are a lot of 6BL7 types out there, and they sound pretty similar, not a lot of difference.

Same goes for the 1625 tubes. I have a large cache of these, mostly from the 40's and early 50's. They all sound very good, be they National, RCA, Sylvania, or Hytron. The Sylvania tubes are built like tanks, and Hytrons are all coated. All of them sound very good. To me, the 1625 is the best bargain in power tubes by a wide margin. It's like a 6L6 on steroids, with superior build quality. The key to getting the best from the 1625 is run them in pentode.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

Thanks (nt), posted on April 22, 2017 at 08:08:05
Vinyl Valet
Audiophile

Posts: 1342
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Joined: November 13, 2003
nt
Open up your mind, in pours the trash. - Meat Puppets, 1987

 

Thanks a good read, posted on April 22, 2017 at 08:43:47
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
Always good to learn a little from you, thanks.

charles

 

Cheap Power, posted on April 22, 2017 at 11:12:38
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10011
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
"the 1625 is the best bargain in power tubes by a wide margin."

I have a sentimental attachment to the 1625 that goes back to my early days in ham radio. However, I don't usually build audio gear using tubes with exposed anodes. If I did, I'd probably buy a bunch of 8552s. These are 12V versions of the 6146B, similar to the 807/1625 relationship. The difference is, the 8552 is octal, and a pair can output almost 100W (ICAS) in AB1 with 600V on the plates. There's a guy selling them on eBay right now for $60 per sleeve. I don't know any other Western tubes using commonly available sockets that come close to that.

 

Funny you should mention that..., posted on April 22, 2017 at 11:22:05
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1308
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
My other set of DIY monoblocks uses a pair of 6883B/8552 as the output tubes. Gets about 80 to 90 watts from each monoblock. Sounds very good, detailed and refined. 12.00 per tube sounds about what I paid for my cache.

The only thing about them is I found that in order to get longevity out of them, need to keep the bias at 25 to 30 ma. Also regulated the screen voltage.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: Buy tubes from the right vendor that meets your needs because they do sound different., posted on April 22, 2017 at 15:12:57
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
'Ive noticed this is especially true for small signal tubes such as the 12AX7.

You aren't kidding. There are so many flavors that one size fits all never works.I love Telefunken smooth plates in my MAC C20 and in the Heathkit AA-11.I like Mullard 10Ms and Dutch Amperex DD getters.I keep searching for the ultimate combination of tubes and then when I think I've got it,I find later that I prefer something else that day.
The 12AX7LPS is a tube that continues to amaze everyone,especially for the price.The New Sensor 12AX7s and the PSvanes are right on the back bumper of their vintage cousins,especially when they are mixed in with their VC.
I just some got EAT ECC803s pretty cheap and those are absolutely incredible in the phono stage. I would to hear the Telefunken ECC803S for comparison but I don't feel like paying 1600 dollars for a pair.

You are right about the 1626 and the 807s. Those can be had in NOS/NIB pretty cheap and they sound fantastic because they are a 6L6 for all intent and purpose.I never understood the attraction to 12V filaments but that's why I have a bunch of 1625s instead. There is something to be said for getting the plate voltage off of the tube socket.I like the GEC TT-21s that I have better than any KT88 of that era.They are kind of a PITA to use but I use them in my Altec 1530s.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Buy tubes from the right vendor that meets your needs because they do sound different., posted on April 22, 2017 at 16:05:39
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1308
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
Yes, 1600.00 for ECC803S is over the top. One of my favorite 12AX7 types is the 7058. They are a mobile 12AX7 without the center tap, so you can't run them in a 6.3 volt application. All of them were made by RCA, and they sound great, with a low noise floor. They are quite a bit better than any current production tube.

I like 12V power tubes because they are usually cheaper than the 6 volt versions. Tubes such as the 1625/6883B are not at all expensive, and are good quality.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

2nd, posted on April 23, 2017 at 11:16:00
Mossback
Audiophile

Posts: 1871
Location: Washington, the State
Joined: November 17, 2001
Thanks for that Mike. Interesting to know.

 

7058?, posted on April 23, 2017 at 13:41:12
Mechans
Audiophile

Posts: 1804
Location: East Coast
Joined: May 23, 2004
Is a 7058 pin out compatible with a 12AX7 wired socket?

 

RE: 7058?, posted on April 23, 2017 at 13:44:15
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1308
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
Yes. I used it as drop in for a Conrad Johnson clone preamp, and it sounds great. They look exactly like RCA 12AX7 tubes.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: Cheap Power, posted on April 23, 2017 at 14:36:53
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
Cheap power is a SBC or an LS1 or a Windsor stroker.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: 7058?, posted on April 23, 2017 at 19:36:49
Eli Duttman
Audiophile

Posts: 10455
Location: Monroe Township, NJ
Joined: March 31, 2000
Clearly, the triodes inside are the same as those in a 12AX7. Pin 9 is the "rub". I've seen documentation indicating a pin out the same as a 6922. The RCA data sheet says don't use pin 9. What came in boxes labeled 7058 could easily have been 12AX7s. If pin 9 is unused ("12" V.), both will work just fine.


Eli D.

 

RE: Buy tubes from the right vendor that meets your needs because they do sound different., posted on April 24, 2017 at 10:46:25
Jim McShane
Dealer

Posts: 5910
Location: Chicago
Joined: January 13, 2003
Wow, thank you so much for the kind words Mikey. I really appreciate it!

 

RE: Buy tubes from the right vendor that meets your needs because they do sound different., posted on April 28, 2017 at 06:23:18
fredtr
Audiophile

Posts: 1973
Location: Phoenix
Joined: January 4, 2005
The product has changed, process is the same. Today semiconductors are produced and marketed the same way. One design is made with the same process, then tested at the die level and binned according to parametric test results. They are wire bonded and packaged with different part numbers, the devices with the better specifications command a higher price.

Some customers take this a step farther, with in-house testing for either more stringent or different electrical characteristics. Only the devices that pass these tests are used in their products, the rest are resold.

 

RE: Buy tubes from the right vendor that meets your needs because they do sound different., posted on April 28, 2017 at 09:43:04
mcgjohn@yahoo.com
Industry Professional

Posts: 501
Location: Midwest
Joined: February 5, 2008
thanks very much Mike for posting this info. I have never been able to swing some original GEC KT88s.

A person would also wonder how each manufacturer's metalurgical properties of the components inside the bottle affect the sound of the various brands.

thanks again.

 

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