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Has anyone else tried this experiment?

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Posted on July 7, 2017 at 13:15:10
vinnie2
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I used a 4-way audio/video selector as a switching unit. It has 4 inputs and 1 output. I ran the outputs from my breadboarded 6bq5 pp amp and my diy 26/26/45 se amp into two of the inputs and hooked up speaker cables for my altec granadas to the outputs. This allowed me to switch between the two amps by pushing only one button. I attached 8 ohm/30 watt resistors across the output terminals of each amp so that there would always be a load on each amp. This allowed both amps to be on full time. I then split the signals coming out of my cd player and took them to the inputs of the amps. I turned both amps on and let them warm up for about 15 minutes before setting them up so that the volume levels were exactly matched between them.
I listened to several different types of music for about a half hour, switching back and forth between the amps. I also had my wife listen for awhile with no other instruction from me than to tell me if she heard a difference between the amps.
The results were not what I was expecting; neither of us could hear any difference between the two amps.
I thought maybe there might be leakage in the switching unit, so I pushed a button that had no amp hooked to it. Dead silence. No leakage.
I do not know at this time know what is causing this, but I want to find out. This is the same result I got when comparing my se amps against each other, and I sort of expected that, but this was a se amp vs a pp amp, so I was expecting to hear some difference at least. I had thought I heard a little when listening to a mono signal split to one channel of each amp.
I would like to know if anyone else has done this and what they heard if they did. I would also like to know if anyone sees any issues with the setup as described.
I only want to hear from someone who has actually done this for right now. It needs to be the same type of setup, not hooking up one amp and then hooking up another. I don't want music memory or the lack of it to be an issue. I am going to start a thorough search of the web and see what I can find there for folks that might have done the same thing.

 

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RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 7, 2017 at 13:21:59
gusser
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Did you consider that those who say all modern amps sound the same may be right?

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 7, 2017 at 13:25:12
vinnie2
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What I am hearing would support that at this point. That's why I am going to do a thorough web search.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 7, 2017 at 13:31:03
Triode_Kingdom
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A friend of mine worked in a high-end audio store in the '80s. They sold amps like Levinson, GAS, etc. He could consistently tell which amp was playing among 10 or 12 models with only a quick listen on a certain set of speakers. Not everyone has that talent, and I doubt even he can still do it in his '60s.






 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 7, 2017 at 13:50:29
vinnie2
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As I said TK, for right now I am only interested in hearing what people have done themselves, not anecdotal information. I am looking for first hand experiences.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 7, 2017 at 14:06:08
SteveBrown
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Hi Vinnie, I used to do this all the time and usually I could hear a difference pretty easily but I didn't try passing signals through a little switch, I actually moved speaker cables from one amp to the other. I wonder if room acoustics are making it hard to compare. Is the phase the same on both amps?

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 7, 2017 at 17:55:24
Lew
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Isn't this the same set up that earlier had you thinking you could not hear a difference among your 3 SET amps but that you could back then distinguish SET from pp?
I think the switch is NOT transparent
Get the switch out of the circuit and try again.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 7, 2017 at 18:04:02
vinnie2
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I don't think you can move speaker cables quick enough to be able to do as good a comparison as you can by having the switch. The changeover is instantaneous and there is no problem with gaps in music memory.
The phase is the same on both amps, and the room acoustics are pretty good. I don't think they would hide any differences. That is the interesting part, if you did not see the switch being pushed you would not know the switch had taken place.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 7, 2017 at 18:10:20
vinnie2
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The difference is I was listening to mono sources through a single channel of each amp then. Now I am listening to stereo material through both channels of each amp. I see no reason the switch would not be transparent as it is designed for switching between multiple sources. If you take the switch out you run into the problem of music memory loss. You can not switch the gear around quick enough for your ear/brain to still remember what the other amp sounded like.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 7, 2017 at 18:41:09
Lew
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The fact that you see no reason why the switch is not transparent does not mean it's transparent. Your own report suggests it's not. Yes the other way is cumbersome and also prone to erroneous conclusions but you might at least try it.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 8, 2017 at 03:34:10
deafbykhorns
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I can hear differences when I switch out OPT transformers and that's without a switch.
Are you using the same manufacture and similar specs on OPT's?
I always felt like the OPT was 75% of the sound quality as long as you got the circuit in front of it within the tubes ideal operating curve.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 8, 2017 at 03:41:16
vinnie2
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I do not see anything in my report that says the switch is not transparent. It is but one link in the chain and I can not think of any way it could make all the amps sound the same considering it was designed to switch between multiple sources. Besides, I tried the other way a couple of years ago and came to the conclusion that I could not make the changes quick enough to be able to remember how the other amp sounded. That is why I put the switch in.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 8, 2017 at 03:46:22
vinnie2
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That's the part that is really interesting, the opts are quite different. I do not understand what is happening right now, but I would really like to hear from someone who has tried the same experiment. So far no one has replied that has.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 8, 2017 at 03:49:46
deafbykhorns
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I have only done this with speaker cables swap.
Did you try this with higher sound levels using dynamic music content?

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 8, 2017 at 04:02:44
vinnie2
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I was just going to add a post about this! One thing that might be causing it is the fact that I am using music that is not very dynamic and playing it at only moderate listening levels. However it is the music I mostly listen to (jazz, blues, soft rock) and the level I listen at, so it seemed appropriate. This would tend to suggest that the differences in amps might not matter too much under average listening conditions unless you are heavy into dynamic music. I think using more dynamic music at higher levels might be problematic for testing this way due to room acoustics and the shortness of the passages. I will give it a try in the next few days and see what happens.
Also, I wish I owned a SS amp that I could try against the tube amps. If I could not hear a difference then I would be really surprised. Might have to look for a used one just for the knowledge.

 

update on web search, posted on July 8, 2017 at 04:39:07
vinnie2
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So far I have found quite a few sites with the same conclusion, and that is if the amps are all operating within their rms power limits and below distortion levels, it can be very hard to hear any difference between them. One of the most interesting so far is linked below. I don't consider this conclusive proof, but it sure goes a long ways toward explaining the results of my own tests so far. Got to get hold of a solid state amp now to try out against the tube units.

 

RE: update on web search, posted on July 8, 2017 at 05:01:34
cpotl
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I'm not surprised by your findings. There have been quite a few listening tests reported, where people have been unable to distinguish between quite dissimilar amplifiers, provided that neither was overrun sufficiently to cause significant distortion or clipping, and provided the listener wasn't informed as to which they were listening to. It is a testament to your honesty in this regard, that you still didn't hear differences even though (presumably) you knew which you were listening to at a given moment!

One comment about your setup: If I understand correctly, you have an 8 ohm resistor wired permanently across the output of each amplifier, meaning that when the speaker is switched in as well, the amplifier is driving a 4 ohm load (assuming 8 ohm speaker). This may be lower than ideal for many tube amplifiers. I'm not suggesting this would make the SET and PP sound the same when they otherwise wouldn't, I'm just commenting that that aspect of your switching is perhaps less than ideal.

Chris

 

RE: update on web search, posted on July 8, 2017 at 05:22:16
vinnie2
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That is a valid point. Can you think of any way to protect the amps and not alter the load?

 

RE: update on web search, posted on July 8, 2017 at 05:56:22
cpotl
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"That is a valid point. Can you think of any way to protect the amps and not alter the load?"

You had a discussion thread on this a couple of weeks ago, I think. I remember proposing some rather elaborate switching with a 3-way make-before-break multi-gang switch. For stereo I think it could be done with just two gangs if it is acceptable to connect output ground to output ground on the two amplifiers. If complete isolation of both output terminals of both left and right amplifiers is required, it would be quite a bit more complicated.

Are your "ground" outputs for the left and right channels of each amplifier separate or joined together? Are you joining the output grounds of the two amplifiers together, or are those to be kept separate?

(An extreme case where this would matter is if you were comparing two circlotrons, for which each speaker output terminal would have to be kept isolated from each other output terminal - eight in all! Quite likely, in your case, all four "output grounds" can be common, unless that introduces hum loops.)

The important criteria are that no amplifier must ever be open circuit (no load at all) in any intermediate position as the switch is operated, and the two amplifier outputs should never get connected together in intermediate positions as the switch is operated.

A simpler option might be to stick with your present setup, but to increase the values of the two permanently-connected dummy-load resistors. From the point of view of not excessively loading the amplifier being listened to, one would like the dummy load resistance as large as possible. But it must still be low enough to prevent the amplifier that is not being listened to from having problems because of its load being too high in resistance. Since you are wanting the amplifier that is not being listened to to run for extended periods into its dummy load at normal listening output levels, it could be risky increasing the resistance too much. Someone with experience might be able to advise.

Chris

 

RE: update on web search, posted on July 8, 2017 at 06:00:04
Tre'
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I thought vinnie said he was using 30 ohm resistors.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: update on web search, posted on July 8, 2017 at 06:42:18
cpotl
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"I thought vinnie said he was using 30 ohm resistors."

He says 8 ohm/30 watt up at the top of the thread.

Chris

 

A long time ago, I thought things like this were important, posted on July 8, 2017 at 07:40:17
Chip647
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However, I found that if I listened to an amp for a few weeks and enjoyed it and wanted to keep listening versus being slightly annoyed with an amp and not really enjoying it was more than enough of a test.

The best system makes you hear the music, not the equipment. It can take months for your ears to adjust to the sound of a particular amp. An A/B test will mainly let you recognize what you are used to.

 

RE: A long time ago, I thought things like this were important, posted on July 8, 2017 at 08:30:54
tube wrangler
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Yes!

If an audio system is really playing the music, and you are
playing excellent music, then nearly everyone who enters upon that
scene will be lifted up by it.

It will be obvious to most there that the system is working
musically-- nothing more is needed.

Of course, there will be those who didn't like it-- or maybe
the music. They are the people who will require lots of time
to adjust whatever their own personal diffrugalties happen to be
(they probably can't or won't admit it) -- it isn't about the
equipment or the music..

What was once said about the best among us being the more
adaptable to GOOD change?

-Dennis-

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 8, 2017 at 08:39:09
tsingle999
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Its actually pretty quick. I use bare wire speaker cables so you just pull out the cable and drop it into the holes of the other amp. lets you compare stereo and mono each side too.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 8, 2017 at 10:39:26
Lew
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For what it's worth, I was not saying that you said the switch was not transparent. I was saying that nothing you've told us constitutes proof that the switch IS transparent, except for your assertion that it is. In fact, your report suggests that one possible explanation for your findings is that the switch imposes a subtle coloration that obscures any significant differences in the sound of your amplifiers. But I do admit this is only one possibility.

However, any switch has a finite contact resistance, a power rating, and an inherent capacitance. Any of these qualities could be having an effect on what you are hearing. Plus, the very act of inserting the switch requires you to create a discontinuity in the connection between the amplifier output and the speaker input. Connectors too affect the sound, in my experience.

I suggest that you take the switch out of the signal path, and just listen over the course of a week or two to each of the two amplifiers, one at a time. I would bet that you will emerge from that experience with a clear preference of one amplifier over the other. Short term sonic memory is not required to figure this out.

 

RE: A long time ago, I thought things like this were important, posted on July 8, 2017 at 11:13:30
vinnie2
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So if it takes months to adjust to the sound of an amplifier the differences can not be that great and it really doesn't matter much which amp you listen to. Is that what you are saying?

 

RE: A long time ago, I thought things like this were important, posted on July 8, 2017 at 11:15:39
vinnie2
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Ok guys, so how do you know when the amp is "really playing the music" if not by comparing different amps in real time?

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 8, 2017 at 11:18:42
cpotl
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"I suggest that you take the switch out of the signal path, and just listen over the course of a week or two to each of the two amplifiers, one at a time. I would bet that you will emerge from that experience with a clear preference of one amplifier over the other. Short term sonic memory is not required to figure this out."

I think the trouble is that many new psychological "confounding factors" will then be introduced, that are quite possibly a lot more significant than the effects of capacitance, resistance, or whatever, in his switch.

To make a fair test, he would now need to arrange tests where he believed he was listening to amplifier A for a couple of weeks but in actuality it was amplifier B, and so on.

Chris

 

RE: update on web search, posted on July 8, 2017 at 11:19:21
vinnie2
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Got to stay with the Kiss principle to avoid trouble. i will do a little research on what size resistors to use.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 8, 2017 at 11:21:36
vinnie2
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I am sorry, but I do not agree with the idea of amp imprint over time. I think an instantaneous switching is the only way you will hear the differences clearly.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 8, 2017 at 11:24:31
vinnie2
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But you can not keep both amps fully warmed up that way.

 

Psychoacoustics?, posted on July 8, 2017 at 12:48:33
DAK
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It may be that your auditiory center have decided to not differentiate the sounds as significant. In other words the brain has filled in the information from memory or familiarity and has summed the presentation as a single coherent output, which it is. And like you mentioned it can not distinguish the 2 amps because the sound from each is too similar. Have you also tried to randomly switch the amps between the left and right side?
I would not be so troubled with your revelation but consider it an affirmation of your amp building skills. The 2 amps are undoubtedly of very high quality. regards, Dak

 

RE: Psychoacoustics?, posted on July 8, 2017 at 13:26:12
vinnie2
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Not sure what you mean by randomly switch the "amp's between left and right side".

 

No, but you do get used to the way something sounds., posted on July 8, 2017 at 13:34:21
Chip647
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If you have ever heard a system that drew you in and made you want to keep listening, keep playing different records, happy and enthralled at the experience, that is a good system. Many systems can sound good, but after a while sounding slightly harsh or strident, a note that stands out, etc. They can be serviceable systems, somewhat exciting, but left off more that they should.

The key is that you are building a system. The amp/speaker/room combination is one where you can take a great amp in one speaker/room combination and have it sound not as good (or even bad) with another combination. You really are not going to know unless you listen to it for a while.

The though of relying on a fast cycle A/B test to tell me what sound I liked better would mean that I lack the capacity to think for myself and enjoy music. It forces choice in an unnatural way.

 

vinnie, do you have accurate schematics of all 3 amps, posted on July 8, 2017 at 14:26:03
elblanco
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with voltages listed?

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 8, 2017 at 15:18:32
TomWh
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Vinnie what will be the difference if someone has used your amps and set up and gets the same results or the opposite???

You have received various options to try, including someone who would help you build a push pull design. You seem steadfast in your design and testing procedure. If you will not experiment with all the variables maybe a trip to a high end salon where they can change amps around. This could at least help you with all amps sound the same question.

I guessing you are running a CD player as a front end. See if you can get a vinyl front end. I am sticking to something in the chain is not right. Maybe try some other speakers???

Enjoy the ride
Tom

 

RE: A long time ago, I thought things like this were important, posted on July 8, 2017 at 15:27:38
PakProtector
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Listen, and share the fun; listen with a few friends. Have them bring a few things to drop in and compare...it is worth the effort...:)
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 8, 2017 at 18:25:09
vinnie2
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If someone uses the same setup that I have and gets different results that would tell me a great deal. IF they use the same setup. Right now no one has. I would like actual confirmation or denial of the results I am getting based on actual test results using the same setup.
One of the amps I have been testing IS a pp amp that I have breadboarded. I already have a vinyl front end, and I will try it just for the hell of it, but a signal is a signal.

 

RE: No, but you do get used to the way something sounds., posted on July 8, 2017 at 18:33:20
vinnie2
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Sorry but I can't agree with that at all. The fact that I am doing this testing proves that I would rather think for myself and get my own results. If a system is really good it won't take very long to hear it. In no way is relying on what your ears are telling "unnatural". A half an hour or so switching between amps every few minutes with different sources of music would be enough to hear any differences if they exist. The point I am trying to make is saying something like "if the music really pulls you in" is just too generic for a valid comparison of amps.

 

Good luck, posted on July 8, 2017 at 21:12:44
Chip647
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Let us know when you find the right answer.

 

RE: A long time ago, I thought things like this were important, posted on July 8, 2017 at 22:11:33
tube wrangler
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Nothing at all wrong with doing that...

Have at it!

-Dennis-

 

RE: A long time ago, I thought things like this were important, posted on July 8, 2017 at 22:13:05
tube wrangler
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It's good advice, Vinnie!

-Dennis-

 

RE: Good luck, posted on July 9, 2017 at 04:00:41
vinnie2
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Don't know if there is a "right" answer, but there should be at least one answer.

 

RE: A long time ago, I thought things like this were important, posted on July 9, 2017 at 04:05:25
vinnie2
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My favorite and most reliable friend for keeping me "grounded" is my wife, and she has surprised me several times in the past with her sensitive and discerning listening ability. She could hear no difference between the amps either. So the quest for a plausible explanation continues.

 

tube taster, posted on July 9, 2017 at 04:21:17
RayP
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I posted this link about the multi-type tube line stage a while ago but I think it is still relevant.

The switch arrangement satisfies most of your requirements except for volume. All of the tubes are warmed up and operating with current flowing through them that is reasonably appropriate for the tube type. The switching can be accomplished in two seconds. The rest of the listening chain (source, amp, speakers, cables) remains the same.

If I could notice differences between different tubes in a line stage then I should notice differences between amps, which I do.

As my write-up points out, switching quickly between different tubes didn't work well for me. I found it was preferable to take my time to make comparisons. The style of music also made a difference to my preferences.

ray

 

RE: Good luck, posted on July 9, 2017 at 06:00:31
deafbykhorns
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I don't think there's a right answer. The one answer would be that everyone's sense of hearing is different. I think some can process these slight differences and some can't.
Your approach is scientific but you probably need to invite 20 of your audio buddies over and do a blind test for better results.

 

RE: Good luck, posted on July 9, 2017 at 06:04:03
vinnie2
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You are probably right. There are only two possible answers to "does it sound different or doesn't it? "I don't know" to me would mean you can't hear a difference. Now where can I find 20 audio nuts around here?

 

RE: tube taster, posted on July 9, 2017 at 06:08:11
vinnie2
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Interesting write up Ray. I had the opposite results when I tried listening for a greater length of time before switching. I kept wondering does that sound different or doesn't it? For me the only way to know is to be able to compare it immediately on the same passage of music.
When you heard the differences between amps, were you switching between hot amps or were you disconnecting one and hooking up another?

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 9, 2017 at 06:10:55
Lew
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The fact that you see no reason why the switch is not transparent does not mean it's transparent. Your own report suggests it's not. Yes the other way is cumbersome and also prone to erroneous conclusions but you might at least try it.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 9, 2017 at 06:15:16
vinnie2
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Why don't you give it a try and let us know what happens?

 

RE: tube taster, posted on July 9, 2017 at 06:20:18
RayP
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We all different and we have to respect and appreciate those differences.

ray

 

RE: tube taster, posted on July 9, 2017 at 06:23:44
vinnie2
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Agreed. I edited my post as you were replying. Were you using hot switching when you heard a difference between the amps?

 

RE: tube taster, posted on July 9, 2017 at 06:39:52
RayP
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The chain at the time was CD source > tube taster line stage > amplifier > loudspeakers. Only the high voltage of the line stage was turned off momentarily as I switched between tubes and then high voltage was reapplied. The CD player and amplifier were all turned on the entire time. I heard a difference irrespective of which amplifier I used.

ray

 

RE: tube taster, posted on July 9, 2017 at 09:14:47
Triode_Kingdom
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"The switch arrangement satisfies most of your requirements except for volume. "

That's not a minor point Ray. Failure to level the outputs prior to switching between them invalidates the experiment. I was involved in extensive double-blind A/B tests of SS amplifiers in the '70s and '80s. Higher-gain amplifiers must be padded down to eliminate this difference. Results become virtually nonsensical otherwise, with multiple listeners more frequently reaching different conclusions. That aside, I do think use of phones for these types of tests is more appropriate than speakers, particularly when vacuum tube power amps are involved. It's too easy otherwise to be fooled by variations caused by the tube/speaker interface.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 9, 2017 at 09:27:44
Frihed89
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This assumes you can actually remember the first sound you heard. I can't.

 

RE: tube taster, posted on July 9, 2017 at 09:29:38
vinnie2
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The one thing that bothers me is that it might be possible for complete amps to sound the same even when single tubes don't due to all the other things that go into an amp. There has to be some reason that I have found quite a few reports that say if amps are within their limits and not distorting it is very difficult to tell them apart.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 9, 2017 at 09:32:28
vinnie2
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Even when the delay is less than a second? That is what I have with this setup, instant change. There is nothing to remember, it's like you never switched, time wise. You go from hearing one amp to hearing the other in an instant.

 

less than wonderful amps, posted on July 9, 2017 at 10:36:51
RayP
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Does this mean that if you can't tell the difference between two or more amps then they are perfect? If that is so, then I enjoy the imperfections of my less than wonderful amps. They are what makes the hobby interesting for me and why I continue to build with the hope of learning something along the way.

ray

 

RE: tube taster, posted on July 9, 2017 at 10:51:42
tube wrangler
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Every amp sounds very different than any other amp-- variations
are huge and completely obvious on a system that is transparent
all the way through.

The ability to play these differences-- and they are huge-- lies
in the transfer efficiency of all interconnects, cables, and in the high-efficiency dynamic accuracy that transducers either have, or don't have.

Most people doing comparison tests are listening for tonal differences only.

That's about two percent of actually reproducing music. While tonal characteristics do count, other factors such as event timing and
overall micro and macro dynamic presentations-- and their timing
accuracies-- are what separates real music reproduction from the
cheap cloning of music-- which isn't complete enough.

Headphones are best to spot individual component variations where
the speakers and cables are not efficient enough to reproduce small
differences. With that being said, really great speaker systems can
be more revealing and more transparent than any headphone.

I don't consider listening, or AB tests conclusive. I agree with
other posters that long-term association with the components, playing
many different kinds of music, among friends is what tells the tale
in the end.

Either you love playing everything on the system, or you don't.

Personal preferences count very little. The closer the performance
becomes to you, the more you will want to play music.

Only all kinds count here, and Blu-Ray movies should be watched
on the same system. Is Blu-Ray audio that good? Not especially,
one can beat it with the best L.P.s played on e great phono setup.

What does a good Blu-Ray movie do for you? It sets different approaches
to playing and using music and adds special effects.

This is a world that most Hi-Fi systems can fall woefully short
at reproducing. What a thrill to find that your system is also
world-class in this arena!

Invite friends over for movies. If your system has problems-- of
any kind, it will be very obvious, and you can proceed from there!

-Dennis-

.

 

RE: A long time ago, I thought things like this were important, posted on July 9, 2017 at 13:30:17
elblanco
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one explanation is distortion on all three amps. post schematics of all three amps with voltages.

 

RE: tube taster, posted on July 9, 2017 at 13:40:18
cpotl
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"other factors such as event timing..."

Could you explain what you mean by this? Are you suggesting part of the music is coming out delayed, relative to the rest? Could you give figures for the magnitude of these relative delays?

 

RE: A long time ago, I thought things like this were important, posted on July 9, 2017 at 14:45:11
vinnie2
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I would guess that the odds of the distortion of each of three different amps being of such a nature as make them all sound the same are pretty close to astronomical. I think I have better odds of winning the lottery.

 

RE: tube taster, posted on July 9, 2017 at 16:05:35
PakProtector
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it's related to 'transfer efficiency', and only your ears are able to notice it.
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

RE: update on web search, posted on July 9, 2017 at 16:39:07
Steve O
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FWIW, vintage tube amps and receivers with a headphone jack had a problem similar to yours; how to load the amp when the headphones were connected thru a dropping resistor of ~ 200-500 ohms - essentially open circuit. Typically they inserted a 25-50 ohm resistor across the output when the headphones were plugged in. I would expect a load in this range of values would be a reasonable starting point, esp if your amps are inherently stable.

 

RE: update on web search, posted on July 9, 2017 at 18:31:09
vinnie2
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But wouldn't the output required for headphones be different than that required for speakers? Would the amp still drive my speakers properly?

 

RE: update on web search, posted on July 9, 2017 at 18:45:41
Steve O
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I'm suggesting you parallel a 25-50 ohm resistor across the output of each of your amps. When the speaker is connected to the amp it sees ~ 6-7 ohms assuming 8 ohm speakers. When you disconnect the speaker the amp will see 25-50 ohms depending on the resistor value you choose to use. Most amps should tolerate both 6-7 ohms and 25-50 ohms across 8 ohm taps with signal applied w/o issue.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 10, 2017 at 01:22:29
91derlust
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With that switching approach I'd expect you could identify gross differences between the amplifiers mostly. It simply will not expose much that is significant to musical enjoyment.

Critical listening and listening for enjoyment are not the same. Each has a different objective. Unsurprisingly, the brain operates differently for each. Our focus (on the sound) is different; our biases are different; our expectations are different; our physiological systems are different; the way we perceive, process and assess is different. How could it be the same?

My view (today) is that critical listening of the type you mention is most effective for identifying gross similarities and differences, but only over a small number of comparisons and dimensions; as the number of comparisons increases, the effectiveness of the test drops, rapidly.

Selecting paint colours for our house provides a decent, admittedly simplistic, analogy. I was considering two whites - one slightly "cool" and the other slightly "warm". On a calibrated monitor, with the two swatches side-by-side I could clearly identify and explain the differences. However, when switching back and forth between larger swatches of the same colours it was more difficult to perceive a difference. The difference in intensity was barely noticeable, but the hue, well, not that I could reliably tell. I added complementary colours and continued switching and quickly lost track of the relative appearance and preferences. The differences existed and I had clear preferences, but they were not well identified or characterised by switching. Switching did expose the gross differences between the complementary colours, but little more; certainly not enough to substantially inform a decision.

For audio, I have found the most reliable approach to be the one that most closely reflects how we use and listen in life. Chip and probably others have mentioned it already. Listen over an extended period of time to an amp, then change it and repeat. Invite friends of over. Just listen to the music - don't make it a left-brain exercise. Do you enjoy or dislike music more or less with one than the other? Sounds kind of obvious if your objective is to build a system you enjoy.

Now, if you are looking to verify facts, extrapolate to conclusions, validate theories etc. you are in a different realm that demands validated evidence. I have not seen anyone on these forums do that to my satisfaction either by narrative literature review, meta-analysis or their experiments. Not nearly.

Oh, and one last question: what problem are you trying to solve - what hypothesis are you testing - what question are you answering? Or put differently, what is your goal by performing this test?

Cheers,
91.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 10, 2017 at 04:25:07
vinnie2
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Yes, but you could see a difference with any the different size test patches couldn't you? What is bothering me is that I hear NO difference between the amps.
The problem I am trying to solve is quite simple really. I have read in multiple articles that if amps are of good construction and are played within their limits for no distortion it will be very difficult to hear any differences between them. My own listening so far is agreeing with that. So far several people have told me why they think it is not true and why my method won't work, but no one has actually told me they have tried it for themselves and heard a difference between the amps.
Your first and second paragraphs are written as if you consider them to be gospel. Do you have a source, or is this your opinion?

 

RE: update on web search, posted on July 10, 2017 at 04:32:51
vinnie2
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I was using an 8 ohm resistor in parallel, but a quick on a calculator program shows that 25 ohms would give a more even effective resistance when the amp is in use. I had meant to do this earlier as another poster had mentioned this as well, but I forgot to do it. Thanks for the reminder, I will give it a try.

 

summary, posted on July 10, 2017 at 06:51:58
vinnie2
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Ok. I thought I would summarize what I think I have heard and maybe learned in my experiments before I go on to something else.
My results tend to make me agree with what I have read in multiple internet articles that amplifiers of good construction played within their non-distorting limits will sound very similar. As there are always caveats with statements like this, I will get mine out of the way now.
1.This assumes that the amps are played at reasonable listening levels.
2. I do not doubt that some differences might be heard with careful listening between amps with high quality opts vs average opts. I think however a person would have to weigh other factors like loss of hearing due to age, etc. against whether the extra cost would be worth it for them. You can get a lot of bang for the buck with some of the lower cost opts. Being a senior citizen, I am sure my hearing has suffered some loss. However, there is a great deal of music that is below 12k hz, and I can not justify the considerable expense of high end opts.
3. All this applies to tube amplifiers (pp & se) only as I did not have an SS amp to compare with the tube amps. I intend to try that when I can get my hands on a decent one.
4. Since seeing is believing, I invite any and all who think I am full of beans (or worse) to try it for themselves. If you have two amps it is very easy to hook them up so you can switch between them with just the push of a button. Get one of the inexpensive switches from the attached link (or elsewhere), hook the amps up to the inputs, hook your speakers to the outputs, and put some 8 ohm or higher (25 ohms say) resistors across the speaker output terminals on the amps to protect them when switching, connect the input leads from your source to the switch box, adjust the volume controls of both amps until the volume is exactly the same on both, and you are good to go.
If anyone tries this please do post your results on the tubes(diy) forum as inquiring minds want to know.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 10, 2017 at 07:41:03
Frihed89
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Posts: 15703
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No, a few seconds. I have to get up an walk over to the preamp and change the inputs. I gave up long ago on this quick change A-B. Also, I am probably not what you would call a cortical listener, by default, not design.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 10, 2017 at 07:56:00
vinnie2
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Using a preamp doesn't allow you to have both amps hot at the same time does it? I think that is important when trying to compare how they sound.

 

No, posted on July 10, 2017 at 08:21:00
Triode_Kingdom
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"amplifiers of good construction played within their non-distorting limits will sound very similar. "

The better the system - including speakers and listening environment - the easier this is disproved. Dozens of people on this forum can attest to the audible benefit of replacing a 12AU7 with a different tube, changing coupling caps, etc. If you can't hear the difference in various amplifiers, you'll either need to call in other listeners with better ears, or resign yourself to building to specs and your own taste.

 

Yes, posted on July 10, 2017 at 08:57:18
vinnie2
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And just how many of those people are hearing a difference because they want to hear a difference? That is a not uncommon problem. Tell you what TK, spend the $15 for a switch and try it for yourself. Then I will be willing to listen to what you are saying. Until then it is just speculation on your part.

 

RE: No, posted on July 10, 2017 at 09:04:39
TomWh
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And within the 12u7 tubes different manufacturers sound different. This conclusion is over the top even for the number guys.

It seems like we go from 2 ohm change in grid stop resistors or 6 inches of wire to it all sounds the same. Is there not anything in-between???

Well the good news for Vinnie is he does not have to seek out NOS 845 tubes.

Enjoy the ride
Tom

 

RE: Yes, posted on July 10, 2017 at 09:22:21
TomWh
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Vinnie you have gone from trying to learn something to Trying to prove your hypothesis and test procedures are valid.

Anyone who can hear music and has any real building experience knows this is beyond belief.

Good news there are tons of cheap tubes to play with. There are cheap 1000 watt class D amp boards all over the net.

Enjoy the ride
Tom

 

RE: Yes, posted on July 10, 2017 at 09:33:23
vinnie2
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Read the reply I gave to TK. It applies to your post as well. Not one single person has been willing to try it for themselves, but many are willing to speculate. When someone actually tries it I will listen. And regarding the "cheap" amps, my summary says quite clearly they must well constructed. That usually does not mean cheap.
By the way, I have built or bread boarded over 30 tube amps in the last 15 years Tom, how many have you built?

 

RE: A long time ago, I thought things like this were important, posted on July 10, 2017 at 10:00:56
elblanco
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Posts: 3485
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it is actually the most likely scenario. I seem to remember the 813 amp op points were found to be falling off the curve chart. just post the 813 schematic with voltages.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 10, 2017 at 10:04:45
jyourison
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Posts: 279
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Vinnie, I don't want to put words into 91derlust's mouth, but I think I agree with what he's saying.

Here's how I perceived it. I have build several well-engineered but very diverse amps, all safely within design centers, i.e., conservatively aimed at the most linear operating points. I recently listened to three of them in comparison as you have, and I can understand your take-away that they sound the same. In my case, one of the three had just slightly looser bass -- and it happened to be the one with the cheapest OPTs. The other two, a PP and a SE beam tube in triode mode, were sonically identical all the way to the deepest bass. I listened to treble, mid and bass, over and over, and after many recordings could not point out any differences with those two amps.

That said, one amp (the SE beam tube in triode) consistently engages me and has my toes tapping, where the other just doesn't. But the PP is my go-to amp offering hours of listenability just like the other. As 91derlust implies, there is "something" about that SE amp that physiologically affects me and draws out my inner rhythm, whereas the PP other doesn't. (FYI, I'm actually partial to PP amps.)

Some day, I'll scope them out to match power output and compare the square waves and sine waves. My guess is that I will see some difference that comparative listening isn't picking up. That may give a clue to an unheard difference that set my toes to tappin'.

 

No again, posted on July 10, 2017 at 10:46:46
Triode_Kingdom
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"Not one single person has been willing to try it for themselves, but many are willing to speculate. "

If you read the few posts I've contributed to this thread, you'd know that's not true. I was involved in extensive A/B testing of amps and preamps many years ago. I no longer do this, simply because my ears are no longer good enough. Of course, no one can suggest that might be true in your case without drawing an accusation of condescension. Nor do you seem to want to accept other explanations, even when offered by inmates with considerably more experience than yourself (which includes me). Really, why bother to ask the question if you don't want the benefit of the knowledge and opinions of others? It appears your mind is made up, and you're actually only seeking a means to confirm an erroneous conclusion.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 10, 2017 at 11:20:10
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
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You're mostly comparing frequency response, not actual dynamic
and timing cues--- which are music.

To each his own is obvious enough, but one must define his
objectives-- are these stated in numbers or are you trying
to hear what the musical venue ACTUALLY DID--- and CAN DO again-- in
only the best systems?

This isn't meant to argue-- but what are you trying to accomplish?

Do you want to drive the car over all kinds of real roads, or are
you constructing a virtual computer model on paper?

-Dennis-

 

RE: Yes, posted on July 10, 2017 at 11:21:03
TomWh
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Vinnie I build amps where I can change components with nut removal. I use solid pure silver wire with copper and brass hardware.

That being said I have built 2,3 and 4 stage amps with all the so called great load devices. Throw in different transformers and driver and output tube variations and you are well into the hundreds to thousands of variations. Did I mention caps, resistors, wire, fixed, tube fixed, cathode, diode, and various battery bias. Did I forget to mention power supplies? Choke loaded cap loaded small cap loaded with values all over the place.

To give you an example my latest phono stage is 3 stages lcr transformer coupled go against the mainstream monster. I tried about 15 different tubes in the first position with different b+ and current. Guess what did not need a switch to tell me the difference between them. Off the top of my head and it has been a year, some popular ones 12at7 lean
6922 to rich 5842 boring Da3 transistor sounding. Of the well known tubes the 12at7 showed some real promise. The texture and tone on the piano was really good. Attack and decay where also good. It could get a little bright on some recordings so it is gone. The moral of the story no one has my phono stage not even close, so I had to try all this stuff that all the graphs in the world will not do it for me. In regards to not being able to hear differences for more than a few seconds I have no real answer.

Well you seem intent on your position. But you will not be able to further it with my lack of building experience. You could say I am delusional and need to be blind tested into submission but lack of experience, probably not your best defense.

It is a hobby that should be enjoyed so I will leave you to your conclusions. The one thing we know for sure is enjoyment is subjective. So put on John Lee Hooker or BB and party on.

Enjoy the building
Tom









 

RE: Yes, posted on July 10, 2017 at 11:32:37
vinnie2
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You're the one who insinuated that it was probably my lack of building experience that was causing me to think they could all sound the same so I thought it only fair you state your qualification. I would think that with all your vast experience you could just whip together a setup like mine in no time at all and actually base your comments on something you had done. Doesn't seem to be your style though, so I will just leave you to your speculations.

 

RE: No again, posted on July 10, 2017 at 11:42:12
vinnie2
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Go back to the OP and see what my question really was TK. I stated quite clearly I only wanted to hear from anyone who had actually tried this themselves. Apparently that part escaped you. I don't give a big rats #$@ what the conclusion is as long as it is one that is done in a manner that can be duplicated by others, including me. I just want to know the truth through a demonstrable test. Why are you so afraid to try the setup I used TK? My mind is not made up, but it will not give in to speculation or hearsay either. Try the test then get back to me. As I said no one has tried it themselves so far.

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 10, 2017 at 11:57:20
vinnie2
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Careful now, you are starting to sound like my first post and you are subject to being stoned at any moment. Your first paragraph is what I have been saying all along.
I am not sure I agree with the second paragraph or not at this point. I used to think I did. I will have to do a lot more listening to be able to answer that one now.
The part that is pissing me off is so many people saying "oh no, the amps have to sound different". The fact is they don't have to, and there is a lot of evidence around if one bothers to look that says they don't. If there is some subliminal effect at work here that makes us like one type of amp better than another might explain a lot, but then it also would open up a lot of other questions as to why it does. As a closing thought, did you play the same music on both amps? That might have something to do with it too.
PS Hope you can make that sooner rather than later on scoping them out for differences. I would be curious to hear what you find out.

 

RE: No again, posted on July 10, 2017 at 13:25:11
Triode_Kingdom
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"I stated quite clearly I only wanted to hear from anyone who had actually tried this themselves."

FROM MY POSTS: I was involved in extensive double-blind A/B tests of SS amplifiers in the '70s and '80s. AND... I was involved in extensive A/B testing of amps and preamps many years ago. I'll add here that I've bench tested thousands of amplifiers - tube and SS - in my lifetime. Do you really think you're the first person to switch between amplifiers in an effort to hear the difference? I did this decades ago.

"Why are you so afraid to try the setup I used TK?"

FROM MY POST: "I no longer do this, simply because my ears are no longer good enough." I'll bet the same applies to you (older than me), and that the cheap OPTs you insist on using for these tests aren't helping you differentiate the details that would otherwise be obvious.

"As I said no one has tried it themselves so far."

You're just not paying attention.

 

RE: Yes, posted on July 10, 2017 at 14:12:36
TomWh
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OK Vinnie you baited me one more time. Before I started building all my own stuff I had a standard el34 push pull running in Triode mode. I had a tube salon in Phoenix who loaned me a 300b parallel set amp. What a piece of crap in my system. Now my speakers are only 91 db efficient but a flat load line. Are you getting the point yet. No switches required did not have to listen for the decay in a certain piano passage it was just awful.

Had another amp it was a Cary. You could use el 34, 6550, or kt88's. That was over 15 years ago. Had 2 sets of el 34 tube which where pretty close. Nice midrange nice balance. The RCA 6550 where more detailed but on the lean not real dyanmics side. The kt88 where probability a little midbass heavy but overall tone and dyanmics were very good.

So let me get back to your test. I rolled those tubes in that amp alot. With that circuit the sound was repeatable again and again. Cold or hot same characteristics.

So let's bring this to a logical conclusion. If a person in a OK design tube amp can hear the differences in just the tubes in the same amp, what are the odds in completely different designs with different components and no less output transformers, that a person who can hear might detect a difference???

For the record right now I have the halogen amps for the 845 filament on a switch. The halogen in this push pull was about the same noise but more sterile sounding. Kind of like what a CD does to music. The other switches are on the phono which switch 12 different caps in the riaa section. The caps in that position make a big difference. Almost like having a tone/flavor control.

So to recap without having your amps speakers, front end, clip leads etc... The switch has no bearing. I would bet anyone who can build and hear could make those amps of yours sound different.

I guess when it is all said and done, if YOU can not hear a difference, who gives a shit about what I think??? There are some sincere replies on this thread at least trying to figure out your dilemma.

Enjoy the bread board
Tom
.

 

RE: Yes, posted on July 10, 2017 at 14:33:26
vinnie2
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You keep posting all this experience but not one single reason why you can't take an afternoon and try what I have done.

 

RE: No again, posted on July 10, 2017 at 14:35:46
vinnie2
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I don't care what you did 30 years ago TK, try it now the way I set it up and see what you get. What are you afraid of?

 

No - it lacks validity., posted on July 10, 2017 at 19:15:38
91derlust
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Let's try again.

My current take on this is that the method you used will reveal very little at best and mislead analysis and conclusions at worst. It lacks both internal and external validity. It's junk science. Your application does not even vaguely recognise the limitations of its approach.

The point of the analogy was to highlight the deficiency of switching-type tests in general - analogies are not intended to be interpreted literally.

Gospel? Are you serious? For the sake of brevity I simply did not use mitigated, self-effacing language. I am as open differences of opinion and new information as ever.

Sources? If you are really interested do some work - work it out for yourself. Start with a psychology textbook maybe? Want to know more, try a text that relates to conducting research with human subjects. Want a practical understanding, commit to a practical Zen or Vipassana practice - little exposes one's thinking more brutally. From memory, Paul Joppa cited some research that was specific to perception of audio. I began to learn about this stuff about 25 years ago when working and studying quality management (Hawthorne effects) and then just management (organisational behaviour). Health science study and clinical research protocol development and management deepened my appreciation considerably.

Take care, you are in danger being an ideology (or belief-system) looking for evidence irrespective of its quality. When that happens you will be fully prepared for the Hydrogen Audio forums.

Edit: please don't respond that the discipline and effects mentioned are not audio... and don't try to extrapolate directly - I'm just letting you know what piqued my interest regarding human behaviour under different conditions. It is what it is - take it or leave it.

91.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

C'mon vinnie, people are trying to help., posted on July 11, 2017 at 00:20:36
91derlust
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Vinnie,

The folks here are trying to help you - now and have done extensively in the past. They share their experience and opinions and invest their time and energy.

Mostly, they don't need you to agree with them; but, it might nice to appreciate their efforts and demonstrate modicum of respect by not personally attacking and baiting them.

So, you didn't have your position validated. Don't fret! You'll get all the validation you could ask for at Hydrogen Audio.

91.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

RE: Has anyone else tried this experiment?, posted on July 11, 2017 at 01:18:51
Frihed89
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I forgot, you're right.

 

RE: C'mon vinnie, people are trying to help., posted on July 11, 2017 at 01:51:40
vinnie2
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If these guys (two in particular) are trying so hard to help me, then why can't they just spend a few hours and set up the same test rig that I did and see for themselves one way or the other?
As far as attacking and baiting, if you follow the thread you will see that was only done in response to attacking and baiting on their part, and not before. Tit for tat as it were. And I am not fretting, I am pissed. The attitude that a few people display on this forum of "how dare you not accept what we say as gospel" is a bit much to take. The whole idea of this forum is supposed to be about trying new things and learning as you do so, but you would hardly ever know that from the responses and dogma that several people here post.

 

RE: No - it lacks validity., posted on July 11, 2017 at 01:56:34
vinnie2
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I will leave it, because it appears to me you have formed opinions from all that and decided that they are facts.

 

RE: C'mon vinnie, people are trying to help., posted on July 11, 2017 at 02:12:07
91derlust
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Vinnie, I don't see them baiting and tit for tat achieves little but burning relationships.

Yes, you are pissed. Others are exasperated and frustrated. There is little to be gained from continuing in this vein. It might be best to just step away for a bit.

I'll take my own advice also.

Take care.

91.
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

Er, no. Not nearly., posted on July 11, 2017 at 02:26:44
91derlust
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Posts: 1101
Joined: December 25, 2014
Did you even read the post - that is a bizarre interpretation. I have explained myself as much as I intend to.

Take a break from the forum. Rest.

Take care.

91.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

RE: Er, no. Not nearly., posted on July 11, 2017 at 02:35:01
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
I tried to get around the retoric but it wasn't easy. If you explained yourself it certainly wasn't clear to me. As for taking a break, I do not intend to leave post of the nature I have been seeing unanswered.

 

RE: C'mon vinnie, people are trying to help., posted on July 11, 2017 at 02:38:39
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
If you don't see the baiting and insinuations then you did not look very carefully. Start at "summary" and go from there for a short while.

 

RE: C'mon vinnie, people are trying to help., posted on July 11, 2017 at 09:01:08
PakProtector
Audiophile

Posts: 12356
Joined: May 14, 2002
There will be a considerable amount of:
if you can't tell the difference, then...
1. you're stupid
2. can't hear
3. have a crappy system
4. don't know how to listen 'properly'
5. your choice of amp topology, components, tubes, etc is poor

How you choose to deal with it is entirely up to you...:)
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

20 audiophiles in your listening room..., posted on July 12, 2017 at 11:30:57
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
will per se change the sound of your room. We take up a lot of room and absorb a lot of sonic energy.

 

"The results were not what I was expecting; neither of us could hear any difference between the two amps. ", posted on July 12, 2017 at 13:55:31
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
This is a sentence from your OP. After all you've written here, I am not now certain whether you want to insist that they DO sound the same when operated within their respective limits (an assertion) or to ask WHY they sound the same to you in your test system (a question).

Most responders are suggesting reasons WHY the two amplifiers may sound the same based on the manner in which you have set up your comparison. I don't sense any personal animus going from us to you.

 

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