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Paralleling K40Y-9 capacitors

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Posted on April 10, 2017 at 19:02:48
used-hifi
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 Hey guys wondering if you have experimented with paralleling same value K40Y-9 capacitors? for signal level, I really need 1uf and have 30 .47

good?

Bad?


Thanks

Lawrence

 

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RE: Paralleling K40Y-9 capacitors , posted on April 10, 2017 at 19:11:20
Triode_Kingdom
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 It looks messy, but it works and sounds just fine. No problem with this technique in my book.


 

RE: Paralleling K40Y-9 capacitors , posted on April 10, 2017 at 19:13:37
used-hifi
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 TK not a technical question but a subjectional question

 

It used to be popular to "bypass" caps with other caps, posted on April 11, 2017 at 04:39:39
Chip647
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 There is no negative "subjectional" impact from this that I have ever heard.

However, if you are looking for negative opinions I am sure there are many who will play with claims of "parallel ghosting" causing "smearing" and such.

 

RE: Paralleling K40Y-9 capacitors , posted on April 11, 2017 at 06:31:17
Eli Duttman
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 Paralleled pairs of 0.47 μF. K40s will be fine. "Smearing" may be an issue, when a big cap. is bypassed by a smaller part and the dielectrics are different.

Guess why I advocate bypassing large valued metalized polypropylene signal caps. with 10% 716P series "orange drops". ;>)


Eli D.

 

RE: Paralleling K40Y-9 capacitors , posted on April 11, 2017 at 08:36:59
Triode_Kingdom
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 Yes, I understand it's a subjective question. Like I said, there's no downside to this from any perspective - it will work and sound fine.

 

RE: Paralleling K40Y-9 capacitors , posted on April 11, 2017 at 09:38:17
used-hifi
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 I am contemplating the difference between 7.2hz cutoff compaired to 3.3hz

This is on the output of a tuner

 

RE: From a purists viewpoint...., posted on April 11, 2017 at 12:43:06
DAK
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 and i am not one, the signal would be divided and reformed at the other end. But in real world terms of millionths or billionths of a second, does that really matter?

 

RE: It used to be popular to "bypass" caps with other caps, posted on April 12, 2017 at 04:14:00
awkwardbydesign
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Location: United Kingdom
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 I have recently tried different types of small bypass caps in my speaker crossovers, and they do sound different. But paralleling K40Y-9s is what I frequently do, as I have a load of 470nF.

 

I don't think a purist would say that...., posted on April 12, 2017 at 07:16:21
Lew
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 Doesn't the signal have to "see" the two 0.47uF capacitors in parallel as ONE capacitance, with a net value approaching 1uF? There's no mechanism for splitting the signal that I can fathom.

 

+1 (nt), posted on April 12, 2017 at 07:48:23
Tre'
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 .
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: If the signal goes in both caps they must divide., posted on April 12, 2017 at 09:20:20
DAK
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 I would imagine it would be like a river that splits into 2 branches and forms up again further downstream. How else could that happen? I dont know the physics. Is there some other mechanism?

 

Yep, posted on April 12, 2017 at 10:13:48
Triode_Kingdom
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 And due to physical variations beyond the control of the installer, it's likely there will be a phase difference of at least 1/billionth of a degree between the two signals. That's sure to ruin the sound. :)

 

RE: Its that 1/billionth of a degree that keeps me up at night! nt, posted on April 12, 2017 at 10:35:15
DAK
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 .

 

RE: If the signal goes in both caps they must divide., posted on April 12, 2017 at 11:32:45
Lew
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 I think we're getting deep into theory here, and I have no training in this area, but my conception is that ALL of the signal goes through both capacitors, since the two capacitors are connected at both ends. True, in the real world, there will inevitably be tiny differences between any two of even the most closely matched capacitors; in my thesis the signal that emerges contains the average of the deviations from ideal manifest in each capacitor if taken separately. So, the same "problem" of paralleling capacitors still applies, whether you think of it my way or your way. Of course, there probably is a "right way", too.

In your thesis, what would make the signal divide? (I ask this for fun only, not because I know for sure.) Here's a thought experiment: If the signal were to divide, what happens to the voltage and current that characterize it?

 

The signal doesnt "split"..., posted on April 12, 2017 at 12:29:03
DAK
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 Some of it goes in 1 cap and some of it goes into the other. How else it would they end up on the other side? So, instead of the signal encountering all the connections for going thru 1 cap It now goes thru twice as many because it has to go thru 2 caps. I think that would be a "purists" POV.

 

RE: If the signal goes in both caps they must divide., posted on April 12, 2017 at 13:36:02
Tre'
Industry Professional

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 The voltage potential is the same but half of the current flows through one cap and the other half of the current flows through the other cap.

So in theory the ESR is cut in half vs. one cap.

"...the signal that emerges contains the average of the deviations from ideal manifest in each capacitor if taken separately"

Yes.


Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: If the signal goes in both caps they must divide., posted on April 12, 2017 at 16:39:04
Lew
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Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
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 But this, I think, is a case where the water analogy falls apart. I don't think you could in theory put your finger on one electron and say that this one went through capacitor A and that one went through capacitor B. All the signal goes through both capacitors, is how I think of it. In fact, one might support that position by the observation that the capacitors in parallel provide a net additive capacitance across the whole signal. Somehow, the signal is in both capacitors at once.

 

is a film cap already multiple capacitors in parallel, posted on April 12, 2017 at 16:45:24
RayP
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 I was looking at the Wikipedia article on film caps and it states -

'A key advantage of modern film capacitor internal construction is direct contact to the electrodes on both ends of the winding. This contact keeps all current paths to the entire electrode very short. The setup behaves like a large number of individual capacitors connected in parallel, thus reducing the internal ohmic losses (ESR) and the parasitic inductance (ESL). The inherent geometry of film capacitor structure results in very low ohmic losses and a very low parasitic inductance, which makes them especially suitable for applications with very high surge currents (snubbers) and for AC power applications, or for applications at higher frequencies.'

ray

 

Quantum mechanics, posted on April 12, 2017 at 17:49:11
FenderLover
 Can't know both position of particle (electron) and momentum (energy, frequency), at the same time.

Some dude name Heisenberg figured that out in the 1920s.


8^)

 

LOL, Don't tell DrLowmu!!!! , posted on April 12, 2017 at 17:59:59
Timbo in Oz
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 I had forgotten all that.

BSBBrains, eh?


Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

RE: Paralleling K40Y-9 capacitors , posted on April 12, 2017 at 18:16:43
Timbo in Oz
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Posts: 23221
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
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 Lowering the ESR of filter caps in PSUs is regarded as a good idea. Why?

Paralleling signal caps is unnecessary. IMO a mixture of types in valve circuit sounds better, and NFB (shock horror NFB!!!!!) caps should be the best you can afford, say commercial MF teflons.

I'm never going to use PIOs, burp, fart, banggg, was my one experience,and it was enough. PCBs are another reason.

LBNL I'm not into tone controls, except the tilt types in pre-amps which make sense, and work well to boot.

:-)






Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

RE: If the signal goes in both caps they must divide., posted on April 12, 2017 at 18:52:33
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 Think of 2 resistors in parallel.

Capacitors have reactance so that at any given frequency each cap has a reactance value.

The two caps in parallel will have one half of that reactance value just like 2 (equal value) resistors in parallel will have one half the value of one.

I don't see the water analogy falling apart but yes, the signal is in both capacitors at once but one cap is carrying half the current and the other cap is carrying the other half of the current.


Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

and then there is WIMA 'double stack' and Mundorf's variant.~nT, posted on April 13, 2017 at 01:18:37
Cleantimestream
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 ~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

sigh, Quantum computers @ Kelvin 0... here we go! {smile}~nT, posted on April 13, 2017 at 01:20:40
Cleantimestream
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 !
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: Quantum mechanics, posted on April 13, 2017 at 07:24:21
Steve O
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 While we may not be able to pin down individual electrons, statistically, the net effects are quite predictable.

 

RE: The signal doesnt "split"..., posted on April 13, 2017 at 08:16:21
Triode_Kingdom
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 "It now goes thru twice as many..."

Two connections in parallel have half the resistance. :)

 

RE: If the signal goes in both caps they must divide., posted on April 13, 2017 at 12:01:14
cpotl
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 "I don't think you could in theory put your finger on one electron and say that this one went through capacitor A and that one went through capacitor B."

And just to add another bit of fun to the discussion, electrons don't actually pass through the capacitor at all; that is to say they don't cross between the plates of the capacitor.

Chris

 

I knew someone would say that,.., posted on April 13, 2017 at 13:27:42
Lew
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 but I couldn't think of a better "unit of audio signal".

 

RE: I knew someone would say that,.., posted on April 13, 2017 at 20:01:57
cpotl
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 "but I couldn't think of a better "unit of audio signal"."

I know, and it was really just pure pedantry, but I couldn't resist!

 

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