Tape Trail

Reel to reel, cassette and other analogue tape formats.

Return to Tape Trail


Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

Cassette Tape - Worthy Analog Alternative to Vinyl?

98.193.42.217

Posted on February 19, 2020 at 19:56:40
sisterray
Audiophile

Posts: 899
Location: Northern Illinois
Joined: October 3, 2007
Contributor
  Since:
April 28, 2012
Are cassettes a real analog alternative to vinyl? Can we better reduce the inherent noise now than we were able twenty years ago? Will there be major label participation? Will there be new audiophile-grade machines? Can cassettes sound better that vinyl records?

My interest has been piqued by the "resurgence" in cassettes, which COMPLETELY blindsided me. I switched to CDs because they lacked the inherent noise of tape. Now, however, I'm seriously wondering whether the analog warmth of vinyl could be found in the cassette. This may all be for naught, because I've been listening to CDs & SACDs for almost three decades. On top of that, I exclusively use Stax earspeakers, which, as many of you know, are exceptionally resolving. Would cassette noise drive me crazy?

Thoughts, please.


"'Cause when love is gone, there's always justice./And when justice is gone, there's always force./And when force is gone, there's always Mom. Hi Mom!" Laurie Anderson, "O Superman (For Massenet)"

 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
Yes and no. Mostly no., posted on February 20, 2020 at 05:44:33
Dave Pogue
Audiophile

Posts: 11686
Location: DC Area
Joined: October 9, 2001
I have a working cassette set-up (Nakamichi BX-300) in my system and have been amazed at how good cassettes CAN sound, and how bad the commercial ones usually DO sound.

I can't abide headphone listening so I can't answer that question.

The disadvantages of cassettes are pretty well known. Foremost, like reel-to-reel, you really can't find a specific track or two on a cassette without a lot of angst. You can't read the notes without a magnifying glass. And the clicks and pops of vinyl are matched by the anomalies of tape (don't get me wrong; I love tape but ...)

Finally I don't expect to see new audiophile grade cassette decks anytime soon. I'd love for someone to prove me wrong.

 

RE: Cassette Tape - Worthy Analog Alternative to Vinyl?, posted on February 20, 2020 at 07:41:54
3db
Audiophile

Posts: 1514
Joined: July 22, 2003
With the onboard dbx2 facility engaged on my Yamaha decks, I get the album I recorded without any added tape noise and any high frequency loss. But I do get the clicks and the pops of the album if there are any. I havent come acoss a NR facility that can wash away the clicks and pops of vinyl without high frequency attenuation.

I don't know why artists are releasing on cassette. It makes no sense to me and hwre's why. Unlike tape, vinyl's infrastructure is growing back with new pressing plants, new ways of producing albums and new turntables coming to market. Sadly, I dont see the same infrastucture coming back for cassette. No new cassette tape being manufactured, especially chrome or metal tapes. The new decks by Pyle, Teac, etc are absolute garbage. No dolby noise reduction to be found, wow & flutter that is unconfortably high, and SNR ratios that are soo poor. These new decks perform worse than the entry level decks of the day. Its sad.

 

There are four producers of new Type 1 tapes., posted on February 20, 2020 at 15:53:36
jusbe
Audiophile

Posts: 5950
Location: North Island
Joined: April 4, 2000
Fox/RTM; ATR; NAC and Splicit.

There aren't any new producers of Type 2 or Type 4 tapes due to environmental concerns around manufacturing (cobalt and other rare earth products used, disposal concerns, particulate processes, etc). Doesn't mean processes couldn't be updated.

The experience and expertise around deck manufacturing is a whole other level of hard, and cost. Mechanical engineering is expensive and would be hugely niche (audiophile price levels) for an 'inferior' product? Companies probably think folk like me are better off ploughing the used market for decks and media. And they're probably right.


Big J

"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."


 

RE: Cassette Tape - Worthy Analog Alternative to Vinyl?, posted on February 20, 2020 at 16:43:40
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23874
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
January 29, 2004
My advice would be to audition native DSD256. Of course, you'd need a DSD256 player and I've found that FiiO makes exceptional DSD players ranging in price from $450 to $1300. I currently own their $650 M11 Pro and their $1300 M15 Flagship and I would highly recommend either of these. The M15 probably sounds slightly better than the M11 Pro, but not much. Both of these incorporate top-notch AKM DAC chipsets. The M15 Flagship has the top-of-the-line AK4499EQ DACs and the M11 Pro has AK4497EQ DACs. I think these DSD players sound as good as anything you'll find at twice their price. I also own a $3000 Mytek Brooklyn Bridge and I like the little FiiO players just as much if not more than the Mytek.

Good luck,
John Elison

 

Virtually no chance., posted on February 21, 2020 at 10:10:23
volunteer
Audiophile

Posts: 5666
Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: January 7, 2012
Really none.


-Wendell

 

BIG part of fun with LP's... , posted on February 21, 2020 at 13:46:10
Victor Khomenko
Manufacturer

Posts: 55296
Joined: April 5, 2000
...is reading the jacket notes. I do all the time.

As others have stated - a cassette tape is not a good alternative, and noise is only one problem. Yes, things like dbx kill noise, but they also affect the sound.


 

not so much IMO, posted on February 21, 2020 at 15:30:32
mhardy6647
Audiophile

Posts: 15995
Location: New England
Joined: October 12, 1999
Contributor
  Since:
October 23, 2016

linear tape speed is so slow and the track width so narrow... it is amazing what was accomplished with cassette tape, but the starting point was so compromised, it's really akin to hot-rodding a Yugo (or a Subaru 360, perhaps even more aptly).
Imagine if some of the formulation and NR 'technology' developed for cassettes had been put into consumer reel to reel tape hardware and media?

pencil stat

A format like Beta (or VHS) HiFi -- which records audio via frequency (not amplitude) modulation using rotating heads onto video tape, offers economical analog recording of at least potentially very high quality and wide dynamic range.

FWIW, I've actually done a lot of VHS HiFi audio recording (dubbing and live recording). The results are generally very good to excellent, and the tapes have held up well. We (still) listen to "holiday music" throughout every December via VHS HiFi, recorded at the slowest (linear) tape speed (i.e., 6 or even 8 hours per tape) and it sounds great.

holidaydubbing121209

Dubbing to VHS HiFi Audio from LP using a Zenith-branded deck we bought ca. 1986 (and still have). :)

all the best,
mrh

 

RE: Yes and no. Mostly no., posted on February 22, 2020 at 12:53:55
kootenay
Audiophile

Posts: 8442
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Joined: October 16, 2007

My freshly restored and recalibrated Revox B215 cassette deck would never replace my VPI TNT turntable but honestly, soundwise they're very close musically. Just yesterday I did some recording on my Revox from my favorites tunes using my Audio Research CD2 MKII CDP and just for fun I was flipping the Revox monitor to source and back to monitor again and for the life of me I couldn't hear the difference in sound quality.

BTW, I'm not using the Dolby noise reduction at all during the recording process but yet the playback recordings are devoid of hiss noise. This is always been the positive side of the Revox cassette decks especially the B215 model as its recorded music is always silent even without the Dolby noise reduction encoding.

Here's a lab report of the Revox B215 cassette deck...

Lab Tests

The playback frequency response of the Revox B215 with both ferric and chrome-type IEC-standard calibrated BASF alignment tapes measured within +1.5, -0.5 dB all the way from 31.5 to 18,000 Hz. The very slight rise at the extreme treble end shown in the graph on page 42 is characteristic of the IEC tapes, but it is normally visible only with decks that fully and properly compensate for head-gap effects.

Overall record-playback frequency response-measured with our calibrated center-line samples of TDK AD (ferric), SA (CrO2-equivalent), and MA (metal)-was equally impressive. At the bass end there was (as specified) a 3-dB rolloff at 30 Hz. At the normal - 20-dB level, high-frequency response from all three tapes was within +1.5, -1.0 dB all the way to our 20,000-Hz measurement limit. Even more impressive was the response at the 0-dB level (which corresponded exactly to the IEC standard of 250 nWb/m). The Dolby HX Pro system maintained a treble response about 6 dB better than is obtainable from fixed-bias recording. Thanks to the automatic optimizing system, frequency response using the Revox-recommended BASF CR-M II tape was identical to that of TDK SA.

Our signal-to-noise-ratio measurements were among the best we have made. We found that BASF CR-M II gave approximately a 2-dB improvement in S/N, but we have also shown the TDK SA numbers to maintain comparability with our other recent test reports.

You can read the rest of the review below...

 

Nope... but 15 ips half-track is a whole 'nuther story, posted on February 23, 2020 at 09:28:29
Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1884
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
  Since:
December 14, 2012
Cassettes are a dead-end. No replacement heads, no one relaps them, awful to work on. However, 15 ips half-track blows away even the best LP playback chain. All you need is (very) deep pockets to afford the tapes several studios are putting out. Most run around $400 per album.

Footnote: Plangent-processed recordings in 24/96-192 formats blows away the original master tapes, as it removes many of the imperfections in the original recording. HDTracks and a couple other sites have them.

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

i own three dbx equipped Yamaha , posted on February 24, 2020 at 05:39:14
3db
Audiophile

Posts: 1514
Joined: July 22, 2003
and there is NO effects of dbx on sound except for lack of tape hiss. No pumping effect what-so-ever.

 

RE: Cassette Tape - Worthy Analog Alternative to Vinyl?, posted on February 25, 2020 at 02:58:55
xsb7244
Audiophile

Posts: 427
Location: Hawaii
Joined: May 17, 2011
Why not DAT (Digital Audio Tape)?

 

RE: Cassette Tape - Worthy Analog Alternative to Vinyl?, posted on February 25, 2020 at 05:37:48
sisterray
Audiophile

Posts: 899
Location: Northern Illinois
Joined: October 3, 2007
Contributor
  Since:
April 28, 2012
Is it still available? I remember reading that it had a terrible deterioration rate.


"'Cause when love is gone, there's always justice./And when justice is gone, there's always force./And when force is gone, there's always Mom. Hi Mom!" Laurie Anderson, "O Superman (For Massenet)"

 

RE: Nope... but 15 ips half-track is a whole 'nuther story, posted on February 25, 2020 at 07:14:37
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23874
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
January 29, 2004
> 15 ips half-track blows away even the best LP playback chain.

I agree!

My friend has some 15-ips half-track master tapes and he sent me hi-rez 24/192 digital copies of them played on his Studer. They have the best sound I've ever heard.

Happy listening!
John Elison

 

RE: Cassette Tape - Worthy Analog Alternative to Vinyl?, posted on March 2, 2020 at 09:30:32
spindoctor
Audiophile

Posts: 1660
Location: Virginia
Joined: December 31, 2002
I have a Panasonic DAT recorder and DAT tape is available on eBay at about $5-6 per tape. I also have a cassette player that I rarely use.

Sim

 

RE: Cassette Tape - Worthy Analog Alternative to Vinyl?, posted on March 2, 2020 at 09:32:44
sisterray
Audiophile

Posts: 899
Location: Northern Illinois
Joined: October 3, 2007
Contributor
  Since:
April 28, 2012
Have you DAT tapes deteriorated faster or differently than your other tape type?


"'Cause when love is gone, there's always justice./And when justice is gone, there's always force./And when force is gone, there's always Mom. Hi Mom!" Laurie Anderson, "O Superman (For Massenet)"

 

RE: Cassette Tape - Worthy Analog Alternative to Vinyl?, posted on March 2, 2020 at 16:21:15
spindoctor
Audiophile

Posts: 1660
Location: Virginia
Joined: December 31, 2002
Not at all but to use this tape you need a DAT which I happen to have.

Sim

 

RE: Cassette Tape - Worthy Analog Alternative to Vinyl?, posted on March 2, 2020 at 19:25:49
spindoctor
Audiophile

Posts: 1660
Location: Virginia
Joined: December 31, 2002
My DAT tapes have held up well compared to my cassette tapes although I must confess that I also have a Reel-to-Reel that I pretty exclusively use for playback.

Sim

 

Most cassettes were produced prior to the loudness wars so there's that. Nt, posted on November 1, 2020 at 09:33:26
Nt

 

Page processed in 0.038 seconds.