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adding mass to cabinet

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Posted on August 13, 2021 at 15:55:16
walkstoslow
Audiophile

Posts: 277
Joined: November 18, 2012
inmates
rebuilding, upgrading speakers, I am thinking about adding a piece of
1/2" mdf to the rear baffle from the outside, to stiffen things up, should help...
opinions?
I am thinking gluing and wood screws...anyone done this?

 

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What kind of bracing does the loudspeaker already have?, posted on August 13, 2021 at 16:44:29
John Marks
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Posts: 7806
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
?

 

RE: adding mass to cabinet, posted on August 13, 2021 at 17:34:01
Coner
Audiophile

Posts: 3703
Location: S.W. Washington state, USA
Joined: November 17, 2001
Since 3/4" has good amt. more mass than 1/2, I'd do 3/4". Normally there
should be a front to back brace just above the woofer. If not, start there. If these are Polks with multiple 6" drivers, who knows what they did. probably already braced.

 

RE: adding mass to cabinet, posted on August 13, 2021 at 17:55:22
walkstoslow
Audiophile

Posts: 277
Joined: November 18, 2012
yes, the sda 1b.s, have not removed the drivers yet, still waiting on x over parts. Wondering about lining the mid cabinet for reflection also, Sides, and, or back only, don't want to mess up the volume.
Hopefully this will pan out... using the coils from the original x overs,
if i can get things apart. Matched all the parts for the tweeter section, this is costing more this I anticipated.
great to hear from you...

 

RE: adding mass to cabinet, posted on August 13, 2021 at 19:37:00
Coner
Audiophile

Posts: 3703
Location: S.W. Washington state, USA
Joined: November 17, 2001
Should already be lined. You don't want to stuff it for sure, being
a ported PR design. There's that anti vibe mat also avail.

Will you be using the SDA feature, and what do you think of it?.
I'll have to make up my own cords, so no opinion yet.

 

RE: adding mass to cabinet, posted on August 13, 2021 at 20:40:42
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4310
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
A thought is to use Green glue to attach the 1/2" piece. Green glue never gets completely hard and the result is constrained layer damping where much of the vibration is turned into heat damping the panel so any vibration fades away much more quickly.

 

RE: adding mass to cabinet, posted on August 14, 2021 at 07:25:47
walkstoslow
Audiophile

Posts: 277
Joined: November 18, 2012
thanks, great tip

 

RE: adding mass to cabinet, posted on August 14, 2021 at 07:42:09
walkstoslow
Audiophile

Posts: 277
Joined: November 18, 2012
You are correct, no stuffing added, the sda circuit makes a big difference in the original imaging.
I am thinking a bit stiffer box, with the added panel.
With this speaker having a drone woofer, this box is considered ported?
I am thinking of rotating the drivers 180 degrees,sealing the terminal cup hole before adding panel, by the way the x overs are original other than z am building will be 3 separate sections, to isolate the coils from each other and mounting,them either on the back panel with hvac isolation blocks or boxes on the floor.
I am hoping that I can get the original coils off the boards and use them, the only cap not being replaced is the 195uf, I have a 170uf that i could use.
If the caps all check good on value and voltage I may use them, way expensive.
thoughts.....

 

RE: adding mass to cabinet, posted on August 14, 2021 at 10:21:13
Coner
Audiophile

Posts: 3703
Location: S.W. Washington state, USA
Joined: November 17, 2001
Yes, the PR...passive radiator's cone mass/tuning weights job is to
replace a regular ports air mass. Usually done when there's no space
for a large depth port. Rotating drivers can't hurt but no big issue with smaller woofers.

 

RE: adding mass to cabinet, posted on August 14, 2021 at 15:27:17
peppy m.
Audiophile

Posts: 2242
Joined: February 19, 2021
I would think that one of the easiest things to try in this vein would be to set flat barbell weights on top of your speaker cabinets. You would not be altering the cabinet design but you would make them effectively heavier.

Start out lightly at first. Gradually add more discs until you think the sound may have improved to some degree.

It may not look all that great, but you will have gained some type of experiential knowledge in the process...

 

RE: adding mass to cabinet, posted on August 14, 2021 at 15:35:45
walkstoslow
Audiophile

Posts: 277
Joined: November 18, 2012
i am going to bevel the edges and paint,

 

RE: adding mass to cabinet, posted on August 15, 2021 at 11:20:12
I had done the same, to back and sides...certainly did not help the aesthics, did it help the sound?...Not exactly sure, but it was something to do.

 

RE: adding mass to cabinet, posted on August 15, 2021 at 11:21:20
I suspect silicone glue would do the same.

 

RE: adding mass to cabinet, posted on August 15, 2021 at 11:44:57
walkstoslow
Audiophile

Posts: 277
Joined: November 18, 2012
thanks for the input, wood is so expensive I think I will plug the terminal cup and leave not add the panel.
thanks

 

RE: adding mass to cabinet, posted on August 15, 2021 at 14:03:01
Don Reid
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Posts: 890
Location: Rural NW Georgia
Joined: February 2, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
April 1, 2010
When I built four surround sound speakers to use with my two channel rig for HT I added enough volume inside the cabinets to accommodate gluing 1/4" thick neoprene rubber sheets to the inside of each panel. As I recall I used 3M High Strength 80 to attach them. I have always been pleased with those little Dynaudio driven speakers. They are very dead to the knuckle test.
I dream of an America where a chicken can cross the road without having it's motives questioned.

 

I'd try applying a layer of sticky Dynamat to the cabinet interior, first., posted on August 16, 2021 at 10:16:40
peppy m.
Audiophile

Posts: 2242
Joined: February 19, 2021
"Stiffening up" the cabinet by gluing on more wood may simply change it's resonant frequency, and not necessarily for the better. And to make such work look good may not be such an easy job.

Dynamat has been successfully used to actually reduce audible cabinet vibrations. And it is fairly easily to apply to the insides of the speaker cabinet walls where it would be totally invisible.

Sheets of Dynamat will increase the weight of your speakers by a little bit, too. I mentioned the adding of extra weight to the speaker cabinets because it should increase "coupling" between speaker and floor (and between speaker and stands if you use stands) and that kind of change may or may not be audible, at least to you. But it might be worth trying.

 

RE: I'd try applying a layer of sticky Dynamat to the cabinet interior, first., posted on August 16, 2021 at 11:14:45
walkstoslow
Audiophile

Posts: 277
Joined: November 18, 2012
hanks fpr input, i may try dyna mat or some shingles....

 

RE: adding mass to cabinet, posted on August 18, 2021 at 21:08:32
Jon Risch
Bored Member

Posts: 6659
Joined: April 4, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
March 1, 1999
Just adding mass will not help that much, but making the panel stiffer will.
In that vein, use 1/2" birch plywood instead, or even 3/4" if there's room and inclination to do so.

The idea of using the green glue that never hardens is a good one, yes, it would be a form of constrained layer construction.

Even better than the 1/2" birch might be two layers of 1/4" masonite (perfboard without the holes, also called hardboard or pressboard, Isorel or Torex) glued together with a hard glue in between them, and a green type glue between the rear of the speaker and the added panels.

Front to back and side to side braces internally are a good way to go, but I understand that you don't want to alter the tuning. Be aware that with the passive radiator, the tuning sensitivity to a small internal volume change will not be that great unless the cabinet is on the really small side and already "falling off the cliff" of extended bass response.

Thus, small but dense internal braces like 1" by 1" hardwood pieces (oak, walnut, hickory, pecan, maple, etc., or even good knot-free spruce) will do more good than harm.

Good luck with your project.
Jon Risch

 

The Plan...., posted on August 19, 2021 at 07:57:54
walkstoslow
Audiophile

Posts: 277
Joined: November 18, 2012
Thank you for your input,
My speakers are, Polk Sda 1b's(1987).
All of my x-over parts are nearly here.
This is the plan...
Remove and label all drivers,
Label leads from each speaker terminal,
and Label leads from all x over out and inputs.
Remove stock x overs mounted to terminal cup,
Seal terminal cup hole, and sda connector hole.
Check to make sure spikes mounts are sealed in floor of cabinet,
seal inside seams of cabinet.
Bracing inside cabinet per your suggestions.
Golden Ratio, or 1/3 spacing?
Dampening behind mid range, and sda array, thinking of sides too.
I do not want to change volume but minimally.
Maybe dampen the mid and sda chassis with hot glue or rope caulking.
What do yo think?
Then reassemble from the top down, so I am not dropping anything on
hardware below where i am working.
Running 14 awg from drivers thru back wall at the centerline of each pair,
mount to terminal blocks.
Then disassemble stock x overs and transfer coils to new x over boards.
Then connect to the hi pass, sda and mid x over boards all separated 12" or so mounted on hvac isolators mounted on the back of cabinet.
It is good for me to write this all out, I have been planning this for a few months.
Care to comment on my plan?
I have had input from the forums only.
This is a labor of love for me, I have been monkeying with speakers for
54 years, starting at a TV repair shop in the mid 60's, taking the speakers out of TV's and consoles and merely hanging them on the wall powered by a clock radio, and upward over the years as my financial positioned improved.
I do not have a 2nd set of speakers right now, I will be listening to Sirius from the tv for the next couple of weeks,I am looking forward
to being finished with these mods....
Like a tweaker is ever finished!
Thanks everyone for your time....


 

RE: The Plan...., posted on August 21, 2021 at 21:40:32
Jon Risch
Bored Member

Posts: 6659
Joined: April 4, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
March 1, 1999
You wrote:
Bracing inside cabinet per your suggestions.
Golden Ratio, or 1/3 spacing?

Neither.

Looking at a picture of the Polk SDA1b, I looked for what appears to be the weakest areas of the baffle for the front to back brace's.

For a single front to back brace, that would be either inbetween the bottom tweeter and the top two woofers, or inbetween the bottom two woofers and the passive radiator. If there is no brace at either location, and you only want to use one, then the latter would be advised.

If there are some internal braces that run across the rear of the baffle itself, then adjust the location accordingly.

For side to side braces, for top to bottom spacing, I would use a 1/3 ratio and use two, but shade them a little towards the middle, say putting the edges of the top braces at the 1/3 point and the rest of the wood going towards the center of the sides. Make the locations not exactly the same in terms of the "1/3" points, place the bottom one offset from the 1/3 point (arbitrarily) about 1" closer in towards the center of the side panels, same thing with how the rest of the wood in the brace is located..
I would then shade the upper most one towards the rear of the cabinet, and the bottom shaded more towards the front. Of course, you have to make sure they do not touch the other cross braces, or interfere with the drivers in any way, such as a woofer vent in the magnet, etc.

Edges and corners of a wooden box are stiffer than the open portion of the panels, and on cabinets where the baffle is recessed, this tends to stiffen the side wall much more in that area. The Polks do not appear to have a recessed baffle, so in your case that aspect is not in play.


You wrote:
Dampening behind mid range, and sda array, thinking of sides too.
I do not want to change volume but minimally.
Maybe dampen the mid and sda chassis with hot glue or rope caulking.
What do yo think?

Most hot melt is going to cool to a fairly hard consistency, so unless you can get some that stays "soft" or has a rubbery aspect to it, I would not use hot melt.
Rope caulking would work great for damping, except that it has a tendency to fall off over a long period of time, and so for that reason, I would not recommend it. It does stick to (clean) metal better than wood, so the actual driver frames might be OK, but I wouldn't trust it to hold to the wood panels long term.
If you do use rope caulk, condition it enough to get it good and sticky, place it on the driver frames, and then use a heat gun (at a distance) to warm everything up (careful not to damage the surrounds or cones, etc.) so that it actually "melts" a little bit onto the metal, this should help make it stick, as long as you push it back into place after the outer layer cools a bit. Use Latex gloves while handling it, unless the tackyness does not bother you. I would suggest a store of rag cloths to wipe your hands on in the latter case.
Alternatively, you could warm up the driver very gently by placing it a warm car just before the application of the rope caulk. Avoid direct sunlight, and do not forget the drivers and leave them in the heat too long, etc. A warm garage might do just as well, just so they are not at "room" temperature to start with.


Jon Risch

 

RE: The Plan...., posted on August 21, 2021 at 21:45:43
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
RTV sticks like crazy, remains pliable and has a long life. Outdoor types are even highly UV stable.

Beware the 'stink' from that stuff which i think is related to uric acid?

Hot melt glue CAN end up simply brittle.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Bracing, posted on August 22, 2021 at 06:34:14
walkstoslow
Audiophile

Posts: 277
Joined: November 18, 2012
thank you,
I have been reading your posts and articles for years,
and using your suggestions for years.
I am starting this rebuild tomorrow....I appreciate your interest.

 

RE: adding mass to cabinet, posted on September 3, 2021 at 09:19:42
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
You can definitely cement on panels (screw and glue) on any of the five non-baffle sides.

If your enclosure is MDF, use plywood.
If the enclosure is plywood or particle board, use MDF.

Apparently a sandwich of different materials is superior to a multiple layers of different materials.

Just make the panels slightly oversized and buzz off the extra with a router. Very easy to get perfect results.

Cheers,
Presto

Cheers,
Presto

 

RE: adding mass to cabinet, posted on September 3, 2021 at 20:46:30
Posts: 1253
Location: Maine
Joined: August 16, 2011



Hi Walktoslow, I added 4 pieces of rough cut poplar and screwed them onto a Dyna-A25.I used this roofing tar that comes in a tube at the hardware store that never hardens layered between the cabinet and the Poplar.The picture doesn't show it but later I caulked the Dyna with modeling clay like I learned from Van AlStine a long time ago. They looked pretty good with the new grill I made with yard sticks from Lowes...sorry, no picture...Mark Korda

 

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