Speaker Asylum

General speaker questions for audio and home theater.

Return to Speaker Asylum

Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??

24.101.215.100
Posted on July 23, 2021 at 10:57:24
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 1470
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 For those who fell under the spell of Harbeth loudspeakers but ultimately looked elsewhere for satisfaction, I am interested in why you did so.

I have been considering a change, and I like what I'm reading about Harbeth speakers, but I have a lingering suspicion I might not find them ultimately satisfying.

They are lauded for their musicality and warmth, their clarity and naturalness. But a few reviewers have said they are great for acoustic music, small ensembles, chamber music, jazz combos, and vocals especially, but can't really deliver on huge, demanding orchestral works such as Mahler, Strauss or Bruckner symphonies. Their small cabinets and 200mm woofers would seem to support those caveats. The Monitor 40 is so expensive, I am simply not addressing that particular component here.

What say you??

 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 23, 2021 at 11:36:59
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7956
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
 I found a super clean pair of original Quads.








'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 23, 2021 at 14:21:23
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 1470
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 That speaks highly of Quads! I am a Quad maven myself, sporting a pair of ESLs and ESL-63s all serviced by Kent McCollum at Electrostatic Solutions. Those original ESLs are stunning!

 

What is the amount of money you are willing to spend?, posted on July 23, 2021 at 17:07:54
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7806
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
 I think that is where we should start.

john

 

RE: What is the amount of money you are willing to spend?, posted on July 23, 2021 at 17:32:12
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 1470
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 Probably $4,000., and used speakers are fine.

 

I just became your temporary best friend, posted on July 23, 2021 at 18:05:10
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7806
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000



Music Direct has a demo pair of nicely veneered ATC SCM passive 19s at a major discount, under $4000.

Scoop them up, as long as your amp has major frammis.

amb,

john

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 23, 2021 at 18:48:10
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7956
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004



I'm using stands I got from Kent on mine. He's a great guy.

Kent was down in Florida helping Wayne Picquet out when Wayne was re-building my pair.





'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 23, 2021 at 19:32:57
Wojciech
Audiophile

Posts: 4124
Joined: June 23, 2009
 And you play Wagner , Mahler and Bruckner at realistic levels on those Quads using your SET amps ?
Audio lemmings are buying Harbeth speakers because they "like what they read about them". They get rid of the Harbeth speakers because they like what they read about Magico's or other speaker of the month more and so forth...
If you can't afford Harbeth 40 buy used Spendor 40 at 1/15 the price . More music, less plastic zing. Don't buy ATC under ANY circumstances. The brand does the best torturing sound engineers and that's why we have such abundance of wonderfully mastered recordings to chose from.

 

Good advice..., posted on July 23, 2021 at 19:35:22
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 They are worth that and more.


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Good advice..., posted on July 23, 2021 at 19:45:43
Wojciech
Audiophile

Posts: 4124
Joined: June 23, 2009
 Agreed. You can hook up 2000 W class D and they won't give up the ghost. What's not to like ? AND you can take them with you to your next condo or nursery /assisted care unit since they are so handy ..

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 23, 2021 at 20:07:40
fstein
Audiophile

Posts: 2996
Location: fstein
Joined: May 18, 2006
 UK price about USD $11K being sold at a profit.
US distributor ripping you off!
US price about USD $16K, about $1K cheaper in Canada
shipping is not $4K!

 

RE: What is the amount of money you are willing to spend?, posted on July 23, 2021 at 20:32:05
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001

I would look at second hand Audio Note K, J or E speakers - The K is the smallest - a sealed cabinet that only needs 7 watts - and reaches down to the mid 40hz range - it can handle 150 watts and can play to ear damaging volumes. The AN J/Spe I owned for 13 years and will reach to the mid 27hz range.

I have recently auditioned ATC on multiple listening sessions and even purchased a Line Magnetic 219IA based on sessions with the SCM 150.

I auditioned recently - the picture above ATC speakers with big Bricasti amplifiers, and Parasound JC1 and JC 5+ amplifiers.

The problem with ATC is that while they go big and loud and can crush better than Harbeth or Audio Note - what they lack is driver integration and can sound fatiguing over longer periods of time. With SS or active I began looking at my watch after 5 minutes.

It was the same problem for the Vivid Audio Giya with flagship Dan D'Agostino amplifiers - it may be hi-fi but it's not enjoyable to actually listen to. Harbeth is on the other side - maybe not as technically hi-fi but you can relax and listen to the things. AN speakers IME are in between.

They're sort of an 8 to 9 out of 10 in every audio parameter and not elite in any singular area. While some other speakers may give you four 10/10s but come with three 4/10s which is enough to bug you over time.

Steve Hoffman who is a big mastering engineer and has worked with ATC for decades - now uses Audio Note speakers at home and in the mastering studio.

All of these speakers are very good but it doesn't follow to me that if you like the sound of Harbeth you will like the sound of ATC. ATC can go bigger yes - but Harbeth to me sounds more natural and the AN speakers give you a better balance. In the end, everything gets a rave review so you really just have to do the listening - but note what I am saying here - you may find the speaker that is more impressive on the soundstage and can play big music on a big scale - so you say wow that's great - but then when you go back and listen to the female singer at the piano where nuance counts those big bombast speakers like ATC suffer greatly.

I liked the big classical pieces and Guns and Roses played real loud on that above system - but when I went to the female singers like the wonderful Aurora Asknes, Loreena McKennitt, Eva Cassidy - it was tiring.

The ATC SCM 150 and Harbeth 40.1 were in my runner-up grouping when I was speaker hunting so I don't want to sound too negative - just that I would not let reviews or forums sway you too much here.

Lastly, the reason there are so many speakers is that none of them do everything at an elite level.

 

RE: I just became your temporary best friend, posted on July 23, 2021 at 20:45:14
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4309
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 I've seen the pro version, the ATCSCM20 brand new at Sweetwater for $3990 and the powered version(active crossovers beat passive ones easily) biamped for $6490. The pro versions aren't as pretty but they're more than OK. I've lived with the ATC 19 for a month(review in Stereotimes) and it's a superb speaker, not musical(a term I hate) but truthful.

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 24, 2021 at 03:01:25
SteveM324
Audiophile

Posts: 164
Location: Michigan, USA
Joined: January 25, 2002
 I bought Harbeth SLH5 speakers around 2009 and I upgraded to the M40.1 around 2012. I still have M40.1 in my living room system. I have another system in my basement that have Stirling LS3 6 and REL S5 subwoofer. I like the LS3/6 better than SLH5. I think its more neutral and dynamic sounding while retaining the great midrange that the BBC engineers developed. Earlier this year, I decided to get something that would complement LS3/6 that I still have. I consider Maggies but ultimately decided to go with the Klipsch Heritage Cornwall IV speakers.

If you like large scale dynamic speakers and you have a medium to large room, the Cornwall IVs are just the ticket. Not only can they play loud to recreate a large scale performance but they also sound incredible at low volume levels. They are more dynamic than my M40.1 at less than a third of the price. When I bought them in March 2021, the MSRP was $6000, but since then Klipsch raised the price to $6600. You can get 25% off retail from authorized dealers if you shop around. One of the things that most surprised me was the Cornwalls midrange quality. I listen to a lot of female vocals and the Cornwalls are every bit as good as my M40.1 or my LS3/6. They also image incredibly well. There are several Youtube reviews of the Cornwalls. Steve Guttenberg's review is what got me initially interested in them. I watched several other reviews on Youtube and read many user comments about them on several online forums before buying them. I couldn't be happier with my buying decision.

 

RE: I just became your temporary best friend, posted on July 24, 2021 at 03:59:48
PAR
Audiophile

Posts: 1732
Location: South London, UK
Joined: June 4, 2019
 John I have just completed 27 years of listening to ATCs ( 50 actives in my case) so I am obviously going to support your recommendation. BTW, all ATCs sound as if cut from the same cloth so if one likes, say, the 50s then one is likely to like the others.

I have to say that my 27 years contrasts with RGA's comment that you get fatigue after 5 minutes and that there is a lack of driver integration. If that were so then they would never have survived as a brand nor would they have such an impressive user list including many of the world's major studios.

It is easy to make ATCs sound poor however because they will reflect everything that goes before them in the system and I suspect that is what brought about RGA's opinion ( which I have never seen the like of before). So not only do they require amps with reasonable power (they are comparatively insensitive) they also need a well sorted front end .

"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

 

RE: I just became your temporary best friend, posted on July 24, 2021 at 05:14:12
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 Things are relative - I was a huge fan of a lot of speakers owning them and/or have had them pass through my home. Sometimes you don't hear an issue until another speaker or system comes along that is more complete and then you go back to the system you loved and can't un-hear it.

For example, I was a huge B&W speaker fan in the beginning (they too are used in recording studios all around the world and get reviewer raves 5-star awards, editor's choice, class A, blah blah blah and blah. So why haven't you sold your ATC to buy them? Something tells me that in spite of all the appeals to authority you like ATC more than B&W for a reason.

Why I wound up not buying the 5 star, editor's choice, used in a bazillion recording Studios including Abbey Road, was because I auditioned 4 speakers back to back in the same room with the same system (that favoured B&W) and I began to notice that one of the other speakers basically sounded "right" and the B&W sounded less human. That experience was such that I could never un-hear it again in the B&W. So the speaker I had auditioned dozens of times - the speaker at the top of my buy list was shown by another speaker to be "off." A speaker I adored I could no longer listen to because it pulled apart the recording - I can't un-hear the lack of cohesion those speakers put out.

And folks into large horns will note that they have a sense of dynamic ease and scale that is unmatched by any other kind of speaker.

I am not saying I am right. The notion that "well the recording is bad and the speakers are showing you the badness of the recording" was one of the very first arguments I heard from a dealer when I didn't like the system. The problem was that the album "Amanda Marshall" (self-titled) sounded good on my system at the time and it has sounded good on numerous other systems. So okay - let's assume he is right and the album is poor and his system shows me in more detail that is poor. How does that help me?

I'd rather own a system where 99% of my favourite music I can enjoy over owning a forum bragging rights speaker that lets me win the technical argument but where I have to junk 90% of my favourite music to play the 10% that isn't ruined. So I chose Amanda Marshall over the dealer's sales tactic that recordings suck and his speakers were the best - Cabasse as I recall. Yeah, they didn't last long at that dealer so perhaps they didn't find enough gullible suckers. Perhaps he needed orange skin and a horrible haircut :-).

Ultimately, speakers are highly personal and in most cases, no one truly gives a fair accounting of comparisons. Most compare at dealers (not always at the same dealer) or at audio shows. I ranked two rooms as the bottom 5 worst sounds at one show and ranked them 1-2 at the next! Holy turnaround Batman - POW!

I have seen people on forums hate my speakers and then a few years later they heard them somewhere in a different set-up and raved and raved. Because that has happened to others, I continue to listen to speakers like Magnepan and Wilson Audio that have never really impressed me but because of their vocal fan base, I keep trying them. ATC I already like more than those by a lot so I often give them a go. Who knows maybe I'll get that POW moment you get from them. Or they offer up a sound that just doesn't quite hit my button.


 

Thanks for the comments... but seeing as the Music Direct demo price, posted on July 24, 2021 at 05:31:45
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7806
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
 Thanks for the comments... but seeing as the Music Direct demo price was a few bucks less than Sweetwater's selling price for the new pro passives, I think that buying B-stock is good when you get the curved cabinet, the nice veneer, and the magnetic mesh grille for the same price as the "black blob design ethos" pro passive version.

I did not see any disclaimer that MD would not honor its satisfaction warranty for a B-stock pair, so there would be little risk in the OP's buying that pair.

But ONLY as long as his amp has the required frammis.

(Is anyone ever going to ask me what that means?)

You could use the motor system in the woofer to drive roofing nails.

jm

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 24, 2021 at 09:28:21
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3365
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 Nice post. Having lived with Spendor's, Maggie's, Salk's, JBL's and a few more I can't even remember, I think I've enjoyed my little Klipsch Heresy 3's more than any of them. Needless to say, the CW 4 has been on my radar since its introduction. Boils down to individual tastes tastes and priorities, but the Klipsch Heritage line seems to work best for me as well.

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 24, 2021 at 10:46:29
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 1470
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 Thank you for this most interesting posting! I am actually surprised at your enthusiam for the Cornwalls. I owned a pair back in the late 60s, early 70s and found them shouty, honky and hard. I moved towards UK speakers for their low coloration— KEF, B&W, Quads, etc.
I enjoy Steve Guttenberg's postings, but he's very into rock music while I am mostly a classical and opera fan. I also owned K horns for a time and disliked them too. I may have to try to hear the new Cornwalls since reviews have lauded their natural midrange. I did love the clarity of horn speakers at low volume—very nice!

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 24, 2021 at 11:43:35
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 1470
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 Yes, I DO play Wagner, Mahler, Bruckner and Strauss on my Quads. Now I know this is heresy, but I can say the following. I have a pair of B&W 801 IIs and a big, beefy solid state amp (Pass Labs) to drive them. When I play Mahler, Bruckner, Wagner, I am certainly aware that the Quads cannot match the B&W's bass slam depth and punch. The Quad bass is clear, polite and lower in visceral impact. NO doubt about it. But ultimately, I don't care. The Quads are so clean and coherent I am often more satisfied with them.

I avoided Quads for years because "they have no bass", and "they don't play loudly enough". When I auditioned my first pair of Quads (ESL-63s) I found they played plenty loudly enough for me and they had adequate bass. As much bass as big dynamic drivers? No. As much volume as people want to listen ot rock music at ear-shattering levels? No.

What they do offer, which I have not yet heard on dynamic speakers, is realistic orchestral strings, realistic operatic vocals and coherence.

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 24, 2021 at 12:09:04
rivervalley817
 'What they do offer ... '

with that said, why are you contemplating acquiring 'dynamic speakers' then?

you basically say that you've arrived at your destination yet want to leave!!

is $$ burning a hole in your pocket or is it just G.A.S.?

with regards,

 

No experience with Harbeth... BUT..., posted on July 24, 2021 at 13:33:59
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31879
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 If I had the $ (but mostly the proper space) I'd buy these AND offer an
extra $300 or so to try to get them shipped and probably never look back.

If I were currntly looking for speakers.

Alas, not done with Harbeth, never started, but I LOVE me a good quality stand mount speaker.

NO connection to the sller BTW.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 24, 2021 at 14:06:04
seikosha
Audiophile

Posts: 42
Location: USA
Joined: March 21, 2013
 I had P3esr's. After awhile, I realized that everything sounded really good with them, but it was rare for something to sound exceptional.

I switched to a high efficiency SET system.

 

Would you feel the same way about the J M Reynaud Twins possibly,, posted on July 24, 2021 at 23:53:42
alaskahiatt
Audiophile

Posts: 7508
Joined: December 9, 2000
Contributor
  Since: November 1, 2005
 especially at their low $700 price?

 

David Hancock, of Dallas Symphony "Symphonic Dances" fame..., posted on July 25, 2021 at 06:22:39
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7806
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000





Photo (c) by John Marks, circa 1994.

When David recorded at his home venue of Holy Trinity Church NYC, he monitored on ESL 57s, and when he edited at home, he monitored on ESL 63s.

Tony Faulkner, as far as I know, monitors with QUADs, except only in circumstances where he cannot fit the QUADs in the (often improvised) recording shack.

In those cases, Faulkner uses Wilson Audio's Duette 2-way. He told me once that he had never heard a 3-way that did not mess up the midrange.

FWIW & YMMV.

john

 

Had JM Reynaud Twins (II)..., posted on July 25, 2021 at 08:31:46
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31879
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 for a few years and LOVED them.

Was able to get (used) Trente after a couple years.

THAT much more better.

Saved the Twins (and I normally DON'T save gear since I can't afford to)
but I ended up giving them to a friend maybe 10 years ago and a few months
ago saw some local JMR Twins for sale for (450?+/- a bit) and almost bought
them just as... back-up).

Other speakers have come and gone, the Trente remain. Maybe 15 years now.

Would LOVE to have the Offrande, noever the proper space.

$700 seems a bit steep for Twins?? but I CAN'T say they aren't worth that based
on how nice they are.

For me, JMR builds priceless speakers.


"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

Many thanks. It's embarrassing, but I actually have a new pair of Twins , posted on July 25, 2021 at 10:13:20
alaskahiatt
Audiophile

Posts: 7508
Joined: December 9, 2000
Contributor
  Since: November 1, 2005
 in the basement waiting for our final expensive move to a place where they can be installed. My current location in Alaska can only fit smaller monitors. For bass, I do have two HSU cylindrical subs in available locations that would not be good for the main speakers.

That $700 price seemed like the current average when searching the internet. There are probably cheaper ones occasionally.

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 25, 2021 at 11:42:31
SteveM324
Audiophile

Posts: 164
Location: Michigan, USA
Joined: January 25, 2002
 The Cornwall IVs are anything but honky, shouty or hard sounding. I've never heard the older Cornwalls but several reviews mention that the IVs are significant improvement over the older ones.

Setup is important for getting the most out of the Cornwall IVs. That can be said about just about any speakers but the Cornwalls are probably the most sensitive speaker that I've dealt with in regards to toe-in. If you aim them directly at you, they can sound bright. Aim them straight ahead and they may sound rolled off. Get the toe in and the distance between them just right and they will reward you with fantastic sound. They sound great with any genre of music.

Coming from the Harbeth M40.1 and the Stirling LS3/6, I was worried about CW IVs imaging and soundstaging. Having not listened to Klipsch since the late 80s, I was also worried about listening fatigue. All my worries were put to bed after hundred hours of burn-in. Vocalists will be well defined and sound life like. In regards to large scale classical, the CW IVs will make stand mounted speakers sound small. There's a detailed thread on Audiogon about the CW IVs here: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/klipsch-cornwall-iv

 

RE: Many thanks. It's embarrassing, but I actually have a new pair of Twins , posted on July 25, 2021 at 12:11:02
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 1368
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
 I beat that, I've had a pair in my closet for YEARS. After my daughters were born I lost my listening spaces one by one. One of mine has something rattling around in it (speaker, not daughter, though now that I think about it...) I wonder how they'd sound now.

 

RE: Many thanks. It's embarrassing, but I actually have a new pair of Twins , posted on July 25, 2021 at 13:27:02
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31879
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 Only one way to find out...

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 25, 2021 at 16:41:04
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7594
Joined: September 21, 1999
 I concur with your assessment. I have posted several times in that audiogon thread. After a year with my Cornwall IVs I am mightily impressed.

Oz








Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 25, 2021 at 19:10:58
Gary
Audiophile

Posts: 1295
Location: New York, NY
Joined: April 21, 2000
 I had a pair of SHL5 30th Anniversary speakers for a short while. I normally use JM Reynaud Offrande Supreme v2s, but the Harbeths were easily available to me at a good price, and I was curious.

I could see why many might like their presentation. They were nice but perhaps a bit too nice. They made everything kind of sound the same. If I were to ascribe a flavor to their sound I'd say they were vanilla. Nothing wrong with vanilla but I just got bored. It may well be that my room was too small for these speakers. If I ever tried Harbeth again it would be with a smaller speaker.

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 25, 2021 at 20:24:17
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 1470
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 My inquiry was prompted by some problems that have developed in my ESLs. I am worried that they may be too fragile, or require more service than dynamic speakers, and I'm trying to decide whether their sonic qualities are worth the potential maintenance issues.

Paul Seydor, a reviewer I respect, bought Harbeth 40.2 (I think it was) because he said they sounded as good as his Quads--the first dynamic speakers he heard that did. I won't spend that kind of money on audio gear, so I was trying to find out a bit more about Harbeths. Some reviewers said they're not good for big orchestral works, but, of course, that's what people say about Quads. Never been a problem for me.

I'm not immune from the burn a hole in your pocket syndrome. ;^)

Thanks for your contribution!

 

B&W's in the mastering studio, posted on July 25, 2021 at 22:34:55
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 2063
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009
 The ones in the major studios were the 1980's ones (801 Matrix something or other?) designed by Lawrence Dickie (before he founded Vivid).

They were better than their successors. Even now you can dig up old Stereophile plots and see how their frequency response and especially higher frequency dispersion were better than than later models.

The newer B&W's have a pretty substantial flare in high frequency dispersion which makes them sound 'hot' and noticeable in a short audition but ultimately unnatural and unpleasant.

In a more recent era, Revel Ultima Salon 1 and 2 get used in mastering studios, and I think they are amazingly good subjectively and objectively.

I once read something from an unnamed Abbey Road sound engineer or producer who said (paraphrased) that the B&W thing is marketing for them, i.e. B&W pays the studio to place them, so they can advertise "As heard in Abbey Road". But the speakers the engineers prefer to use are Quested---a very high end UK pro maker.

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 25, 2021 at 23:02:37
rivervalley817
 get some then!

you probably need a new listening room too George

with accoutrements!

the family will understand ... I do

best,





 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 26, 2021 at 05:24:00
BCR
Audiophile

Posts: 2446
Location: connecticut
Joined: April 7, 2009
 I have owned the Harbeth P3, C7 and the M30.1. The P3 is my favorite Harbeth! This guy gives a nice review that I think describes them pretty good!

 

I haven't given up on Harbeths, posted on July 26, 2021 at 06:43:24
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13975
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 They are universally well reviewed. They are also expensive as hell.
And, I've heard 2 different pair, but never been an owner, and probably
never will be. I came under the spell of planars and electrostats a long
time ago. I see no point in buying any box speaker because they all sound,
well, boxy, to me.

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 26, 2021 at 13:46:29
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 1470
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 Thank you, thank you, thank you for passing along this link! I LOVED it! This guy is a wonderful musician and a crazy audiophile! I love that he has at least two pairs of Quads, at least one Klipsch LaScala, the little Harbeths..on and on. Truly a man after my own heart! Good on you!

 

RE: I haven't given up on Harbeths, posted on July 26, 2021 at 13:54:23
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 1470
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 I have never even heard Harbeths, but have become interested in them. There does seem to be a lot of activity lately with new editions coming out frequently and very rapidly-rising prices. It makes me wonder whether it's, any more, about real sonic advances or just tweaking and marketing to get more money.
The other English makers of these BBC-derived designs--Spendor, Sterling, Warfdale, etc. are making nice speakers at much lower prices.

Like you, I am a big fan of electrostats, currently having two pair of Quads, 57s and 63s, really nice speakers!

 

RE: David Hancock, of Dallas Symphony "Symphonic Dances" fame..., posted on July 26, 2021 at 14:03:55
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 1470
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 Interesting! Thank you for posting!

 

RE: I haven't given up on Harbeths, posted on July 26, 2021 at 14:39:42
BCR
Audiophile

Posts: 2446
Location: connecticut
Joined: April 7, 2009
 FYI: Warfdale is not a BBC derived designed type speaker!

 

RE: I haven't given up on Harbeths, posted on July 26, 2021 at 18:29:42
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13975
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 For the amount of money you have to spend to get a higher end Harbeth,
you can get top line Magnepans (20.7s) or Sound Labs (545 or 645), either
of which is going to make Harbeths sound ... well, you have Quads, so
you know.

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

That Was Great, posted on July 26, 2021 at 20:32:12
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 1368
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
 Thanks for sharing. It's rare to hear audio equipment opinions from those in the pits. Made me want to go and listen to them. Unfortunately my long time dealer (right down the street!) who carried them has evidently closed up shop and retired. If Brian sold them they must've been something worth hearing.

 

RE: I just became your temporary best friend, posted on July 27, 2021 at 09:00:07
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 1470
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 Man! I really hear you on dealers' comments on your perceptions of how a speaker sounds. I had a well-regarded horn top end speaker that sound hard, shouty and colored. I was told it was the fault of the upstream electronics. But, to varying degrees, this was the case no matter what electronics I used--solid state(sounded worse), tubes(sounded better), SETs and so on.
Then I was told it was the fault of the room or my speaker placement, all of which I had experimented with extensively.
The only conclusion was that the SPEAKERS were hard, shouty colored and fatiguing to listen to.
When I swapped them out for a good-quality UK speaker (KEF 104aB)I was just startled by the lack of coloration. On the horns speakers, orchestral woodwinds had a generalized woodwind sound. On the KEFs, I could identify which woodwinds were playing and when they changed. Yup. It was those speakers that were at fault, I am convinced.

 

RE: B&W's in the mastering studio, posted on July 27, 2021 at 19:28:19
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 I have heard from people like Bob Hodus who was not a B&W fan and worked at Abbey Road - he helped run the Tape Project and acoustician.

A lot of speakers can be used in recording studios - that alone doesn't really warrant any special merit because a lot of studios already have the speakers in place - the actual RE may or may not like them or want to use them. But it's another avenue of advertising.

I do like when some of these RE's decision to choose a home audio speaker to use in mastering or recording because it's somewhat unusual and a compliment that they decide to replace their standard pro-audio gear.




 

They're the speakers that replaced my Harbeth M30.1's , posted on July 28, 2021 at 00:11:38
Paul Tobin
Audiophile

Posts: 1380
Joined: September 8, 2000
 I had the Harbeth M30.1's for 6yrs (and C7es2, C7es3 before those). I purchased at the SCM19's compulsively after audition and sold the M30.1's after comparing them at home.
I was really surprised by the midrange and vocal excellence of the ATC'S. Though less lush than the Harbeths, the ATC's were more dynamic had cleaner punchier bass and were more adaptable to different genres of music.
I've since upgraded to the ATC SCM100 active towers.
System Info

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 28, 2021 at 01:11:26
Archguy
Audiophile

Posts: 1
Location: Virginia
Joined: July 18, 2017
 If I sell my 30.1s, it'll just be because I have so much money in them. They're pretty amazing speakers though most expensive components (Harbeths included) tend to be well past the point of diminishing returns.

That said, I do agree that they shine best on more intimate music. Not sure if it's my setup or what but none of the Harbeths I've owned were strongest on full-blare orchestral, not to mention hard rock.

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 28, 2021 at 04:19:30
jperry
Audiophile

Posts: 418
Location: Phx, AZ
Joined: September 11, 2004
 I owned some Harbeth model 7 stand mounts for a while, and found the sound boring.

They were replaced with Proac Response 2.5 which, in my system were a big improvement.

I now own Proac Response D-40r, that have been with me for years and will stay longer. A really great speaker

 

Never understood the polarising opinion on ATC, posted on July 28, 2021 at 06:11:38
Paul Tobin
Audiophile

Posts: 1380
Joined: September 8, 2000
 As stated elsewhere I moved from Harbeth to ATC and have now used the latter for several years.
I actually never payed much attention to ATC in the past because some negative scuttlebutt on forums indicated I wouldn't like them (I was a Harbeth user for more than 12 years).
When I actually listened to the SCM19 (I took in my Benchmark AHB2 amp) I was smitten - they sounded quite beautiful on vocal/acoustic music and bass tautness/control/neutrality and dynamics eclipsed Harbeth. I bought them on the spot.
BTW, I'm not dissing Harbeth - lovely speakers - the ATC'S are just better across a wider range of genres IMO.

Just finished listening to the 'Three Little Words' album by Dominique Fils-Aimé - wonderful! But now if I want to switch to Yello, the ATC'S will knock that out of the park too!

System Info

 

ATC SCM100 active towers... IMHO, hard to beat for the money., posted on July 28, 2021 at 06:15:28
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7806
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000



Of course, Wilson Benesch's current upgrade to the ACT, powered by darTZeel, would blow them into the weeds... but for "I couldda boughtta Mercedes!" money.

john

 

Actually they big ATC'S were a bit out of reach for me John, but......, posted on July 28, 2021 at 07:05:25
Paul Tobin
Audiophile

Posts: 1380
Joined: September 8, 2000
 When I came across a 2yr old pair of SCM100ASLT'S selling locally for ~50% retail I decided to pull the trigger ;-)

System Info

 

Nice ProAcs nt, posted on July 28, 2021 at 07:45:47
G Squared
Audiophile

Posts: 8488
Location: Washington, DC Metro Area
Joined: November 16, 2004
Contributor
  Since: May 23, 2023
 .
Gsquared

 

me too, posted on July 28, 2021 at 13:03:21
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7956
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
 Proac's offer a lot more for the money than Harbeth. A LOT MORE.







'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

+1 "I switched to a high efficiency SET system." ............nt, posted on July 28, 2021 at 16:17:11
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 nt



 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 28, 2021 at 17:41:53
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 You have to have the 'Right Room' for KHorns..... That is more important than the speaker. And by 'Right', it usually means Big. Anything else is a compromise..... Khorns have been around a long time, for good reason.... That is not to say that the Midrange Horn is not lacking. There are much better. But the Khorn Bass Cabinets are very hard to improve on.



 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 28, 2021 at 21:00:45
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 1470
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 I agree. I think my room was simply too small for K-horns and there wasn't anything to be done about it except to have them in false, self-made corners. That would have been extremely awkward and unsightly in my listening room. My room is 22 x 14 and I could only place the K-horns on the 14 foot wall, where there were two good corners. A little foam pipe insulation on the edges and snuggy into the corners for a good speaker-to-wall seal.

 

Doubtful claim, posted on July 28, 2021 at 21:13:23
blakey
Audiophile

Posts: 212
Joined: October 24, 2000
 given that a pair of much more expensive WB Resolutions hardly blew away the ATC SCM100PSL driven by the same amplifier (Gryphon Antileon Evo)

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on July 29, 2021 at 00:35:13
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 I have them on a 18 foot Wall. I built this room especially for the Khorn Bass Bins.







 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on August 1, 2021 at 10:57:14
Rich H v2
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Joined: December 23, 2007
 In answer to the OP's question:

I love Harbeth speakers. Absolutely one of my top brands, basically for the same reasons most Harbeth fans love them: that amazingly rich, organic, easeful natural sounding midrange. They get the gestalt of the human voice better than most speakers on the planet. (I remember not long ago being at an audio show with room after room of super expensive speakers playing the standard audiophile "voice with minimal accompaniment" recordings. Yet it wasn't until I was drawn in to a room by hearing eerily natural vocals to sit and listen to some Harbeth 30.1s that I was actually blown away. I had to think "why can't all those other speakers do this?"

At one point a few years ago I went on a massive speaker audition project to try to replace some Thiel 3.7s. I loved the 3.7s, probably the best over all balanced speakers I've ever had in my room (and that's a lot of speakers!). And I drove them with my Conrad Johnson Premier 12 tube monoblocks to glorious effect. They had all the Thiel attributes of clarity, liveness, density of imaging and excellent tone, but also relaxed, rich and organic.

But they were just a bit too big aesthetically and ergonomically because they slightly blocked the opening to the room.

Among the long list of speakers I auditioned or tried, I grabbed a second hand pair of Harbeth SuperHL5plus speakers and lived with them for a month or two.

They did everything I love about the Harbeths, though with a bit more neutrality and airiness in the top end (vs the 30s) and more even bass control on the bottom (vs the 7s). Just super organic with voices, just right with instrumental timbres, detail without fatigue, excellent imaging, and so evenly balanced that I found any musical genre worked great.

Why didn't I keep them?

Because in going back and forth between the Harbeths and the Thiels, I found the Thiels did most of what the Harbeths did, but "more" and "better." That is the instrumental timbre was very similar and bang on - wood sounded woody, brass brassy, handclaps fleshy and human. But compared to the Harbeths they were more refined, "faster" and more alive on the leading edge, the Harbeths had a bit of blur and thickness in the sound that only really was obvious in direct comparison with a speaker like the Thiels that sounded utterly boxless. So the Thiels cleaned and cleared up the sound, with more precision and focus and density and punch in the imaging and dynamics. The result would be that, for instance, a track by the Los Angelese Guitar Quartet (classical guitars) would sound very comfortable and organic and tonally right on the Harbeths, but simply "more real" on the Thiels...and in a way that did not give up those other great qualities of the Harbeths. So I just couldn't see myself giving up the Thiels for the Harbeths and moved on.

(That said, no the Thiels could not quite compete with the Harbeths for that perfection with the human voice. But then again I have a pair of Spendor S3/5s that I throw in my system that give me that particular type of magic when I want).

Ultimately I sold the Thiel 3.7s and replaced them with the slightly smaller Thiel 2.7s, which gave me the same general sound, but worked better aesthetically in my room. But I also ended up with a pair of Joseph Audio Perspective speakers which, while not sounding at all like the Harbeths, gave their own version of a peerless sounding midrange with exquisite tonality (and punch).

Generally speaking I have noted that people who move on from Harbeth usually do so to more "exciting" speakers. They look for more dynamic life, vs the "always comfortable" more laid back sound of the Harbeths.

If I had room for yet another system, though, I'd likely grab a pair of Harbeths. I've actually heard the Harbeth 40.1s throw some of the most spooky-real sound/imaging I've ever heard, in some set ups. And that's coming from someone who has also owned MBL omnis!

Cheers.

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on August 1, 2021 at 11:04:36
rivervalley817
 a nice addendum to the thread ... thanks for sharing your journey!

regards,

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on August 1, 2021 at 15:12:17
Craiger56
Audiophile

Posts: 5574
Location: San Jose CA
Joined: April 3, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 29, 2003
 I wonder if any US manufactures ever got any help?

" Midrange woofer is also pretty big - diameter 200 mm, also manufactured in-house, and it's placed in a separate chamber inside the cabinet. Its diaphragm is made of some kind of polypropylene called Radial 2. Its development was possible thanks to a grant from the British government. "

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on August 2, 2021 at 11:22:41
Rich H v2
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Joined: December 23, 2007
Happy to.

I was a very active member many years ago here. Can't remember the last time I posted. Good to see the place still has the lights on :-)

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on August 2, 2021 at 12:09:10
rivervalley817
 you write well and should probably post more!

with regards,

 

RE: Had JM Reynaud Twins (II)..., posted on August 5, 2021 at 05:29:23
BenE
Audiophile

Posts: 405
Location: midwest
Joined: March 18, 2012
 I've always wanted to try JM Reynaud speakers. Recall reading about them years ago in Listener Magazine and of course Bob Neil speaks highly of them and sells them.

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on August 12, 2021 at 15:54:26
milpai
Audiophile

Posts: 651
Location: Ohio
Joined: August 21, 2005
 Those D40r are something special!! I am sure they will go on and on and on and on and on.......:-)

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on August 12, 2021 at 18:25:16
jperry
Audiophile

Posts: 418
Location: Phx, AZ
Joined: September 11, 2004
 Thanks Milpai. The Proacs are the most enduring component in my system so far.

 

RE: Why did you give up your Harbeth speakers??, posted on August 27, 2021 at 16:55:54
miller.mark19@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 4
Location: Maryland
Joined: October 7, 2020
 Steve never met a Klipsch speaker he didn't like, apparently. Personally, I've tried to like Klipsch speakers - and I've heard everything from the Chorus to the K-Horn - but could never quite get there. They just don't do it for me. No offense to K fans.

 

Page processed in 0.062 seconds.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]