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heading out to audition some older speakers today

67.11.179.155
Posted on August 14, 2020 at 06:19:16
BS64
Audiophile

Posts: 2451
Joined: July 17, 2000
 Two sellers on Craigslist. First up early this afternoon are a pair of Paradigm Studio 100 v2. Seller says they work fine, pictures look good. Only visible flaw is a dented VC dust cover on one of the woofers. He said there is a scuff mark on the side of one that will probably buff out. I'm not overly concerned about cosmetics as they will be upstairs in the media room. Good review by Robert Deutsch in June 2000. Asking $700.

Later this evening, one seller with 2 pairs of Infinitys...RS 4/B and RS-6001. Not a huge difference between these two pairs. 4/B's are 33" tall with EMIT tweeter and polydome midrange, 6001's are 37" tall with EMIT-k tweeter and polyshperite midrange. 4/b's have 8" polypropylene woofers (2 each), the 6001's have 8" IMG woofers (2 each). One of the 6001 woofers is missing the VC dust cover. Seller states and pictures verify that the woofers have been refoamed. Ad states $800. I'm not sure if that's for both pairs, or if he's asking $800 each pair. They didn't retail for much more than that 30+ years ago so I'm assuming $400 each.

I'm intrigued by the Infinitys as I have never owned a speaker with ribbon tweeters. But they are late 80's vintage. They also have non-traditional, sideways rectangle cabinets. Wonder what affect that will have on dispersion? I like the fact that Paradigm designs and builds in-house. Based on the review date the v2's are only about 20 years old.

Any opinions or experiences to share about these speakers? In my post from 7/25 I stated that I was looking for something new under $1k to listen to while I work on my Gershmans. I have come to realize that there isn't much out there, although DanS and Mick Wolfe had positive remarks about the JBL 580 and the Studio series in general. The 590's are still on sale for $1k/pair. Due to recent personal developments I prefer to stay around the $500 range, so new is out of the question. Thanks in advance...

 

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RE: heading out for older speakers today, posted on August 14, 2020 at 11:11:16
bare
Audiophile

Posts: 1879
Joined: April 14, 2009
 Hunt up so9me PSBs They can be surprisingly good Speakers.
Usually reasonably priced used, as Bonus.
Viable replacements for your main speakers.. Good

 

RE: heading out to audition some older speakers today, posted on August 14, 2020 at 12:01:16
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3156
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018
 I think you'll find the Paradigms more fuller sounding. Even at lower volumes.

The Infinities are very nice too, though not as dynamic.

I had heard the RS4b's back in their day. And compared to Paradigm models in that vintage, I think I would have preferred the Infinities.

But the newer Paradigms you will be auditioning are in a different (higher quality) class. But as you say, they cost more.

Wouldn't hurt to check out replacement parts on those ribbon tweaters should you ever need to replace them. eBay probably.

Good luck with your auditioning!

Jonesy

( the PSB's recommended by another poster is also a good option)




"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

PSB, posted on August 14, 2020 at 12:56:52
BS64
Audiophile

Posts: 2451
Joined: July 17, 2000
 Those were recommended in response to my 7/25 post. A pair of 800's on C-list, ad has been on there for about a month. I can see if they are still available. Looks like a soft dome tweeter, which for me is preferable but not a deal breaker if metal dome sounds good.

 

just met a family of audiophiles, posted on August 14, 2020 at 13:09:57
BS64
Audiophile

Posts: 2451
Joined: July 17, 2000
 They had the Paradigms set up in the family room. Parasound preamp, B&K amp. Not sure of the model numbers but the preamp had tone controls. They sounded pretty good, but a tad bit of sibilance. Dad said he had the treble tweaked up a bit due to his hearing. I was kind of expecting it from a metal dome tweeter. But overall the sound was punchy and dynamic. Not ideal listening conditions but they imaged well. I have a dedicated room, and no tone controls. They might sound better here. I didn't inspect up close but they looked great.

Dad had some tall Def Techs as main speakers in the family room. Their son, who is selling the Paradigms, had an old pair of Revels and a pair of Mirage M-3si. They also had a pair of Infinitys with a dome tweeter, not sure of the model. And a couple of other pairs stashed away. Oh, and 2Ce's at their lake house. Must be nice. Anyway, they brought the Mirage out and hooked them up. I liked the highs of the Mirages better. Smoother but with great extension. He's selling those for $1k but said he would consider coming down since my budget is 3-figures. Off to hear the Infinitys in a couple of hours.

 

Nice! Mirage M3si..., posted on August 14, 2020 at 14:33:41
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3156
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018
 Extra rear firing tweeter! You're circling the amazing sound of their big brother, the M1's. Dynamic speakers with dipole sound. Great opportunity if you can get the M3si.

Thanks for sharing your adventure and telling us about the audiophiles you are meeting.

Cheers!

Jonesy


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: Nice! Mirage M3si..., posted on August 14, 2020 at 15:11:21
BS64
Audiophile

Posts: 2451
Joined: July 17, 2000



The son said they had rear firing tweeter AND midrange? He sent me a link to the Stereophile review. I need to check that out. How do you think they would do in my room? The Gershmans are 36" tall but they are on a piece of 3/4" plywood, some Vib-X pads, and then a piece of 3/4" mdf, so closer to 38". The mdf was installed after this pic.
Would that sloped ceiling help, or hurt? Gershmans are isolated due to suspended floor over garage. Another consideration for the Mirage. But I sit in a short directors chair to get up off the floor so a tall speaker is not an issue. In fact it's welcomed.
I did like what I heard, even though it was brief and not what I had gone there to listen to.

 

RE: Nice! Mirage M3si..., posted on August 14, 2020 at 17:13:26
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3156
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018
 You're right. There is a midrange firing out back as well.

A low ceiling can hurt acoustics, but looks like you have the Gershmans quite a bit away from the back and side walls. And the ceiling slope gets higher as you move the speakers farther into the room. So you should be OK.

The Mirage speakers "might" have to move into the room a little farther though. Maybe a foot or 2 more. Then if your chair is about 6 to 8 feet from the speakers, with another 6 to 8 feet of space behind you, all should be good. If you have more space to play with, even better.

Knowing now it also has mid-range firing outback, you are approaching dipole (planar) like sound. You WILL feel immersed in a 3D soundstage. Especially at high volumes. I personally love that. The more the better.

Certainly you can tone the effect down with room treatments. Some prefer to have everything in front of them with just a hint of back hall acoustics.

Either way, it will be a good imaging soundstage. I don't want you to think the Mirage are like wall reflection based Bose 901's. (Not to put down the Bose completely. In their day, they could be quite impressive depending on how they were set up, and your personal taste.)

Reading as many reviews as you can will help. It's great to have those old magazine reviews available on the internet.

Sorry to be so wordy, as I know whatever you purchase is only for interim use until you get the Gershmans running.

Still, you are going out of the way to audition various kinds of speakers. May as well learn about the pros and cons of different designs.

Good luck and let us inmates know how it goes.

Cheers!

Jonesy




"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

great feedback..., posted on August 14, 2020 at 19:30:09
BS64
Audiophile

Posts: 2451
Joined: July 17, 2000
 The room is 17' x 19'. 10' ceiling in the center. Knee walls start about 5.5' up the wall. Flat part of ceiling about 10' long.
Speakers along a 17' wall. Tops of the Gershmans about 39" out. The back of my chair is 5.5' from the rear wall. There is no way the Mirage would work in this room.
The owner of the Infinity's was kind enough to let me bring the shorter pair (6001) home. Odd thing is, the literature I found online says the 6001 are 37" and the 4/B 33". But the 33" speakers are in my room and have the 6001 placard on the back.
I am already finding the bass a bit bloated, but I have an acoustic guitar cd playing on repeat while everything warms up. Some tracks on this disc have some notes that seem to resonate even with the Gershmans. After dinner I want to play some different tracks to get a better understanding of these Infinity's. Patience, grasshopper (talking to myself)...

 

RE: PSB are surprisingly good.., posted on August 14, 2020 at 19:39:09
bare
Audiophile

Posts: 1879
Joined: April 14, 2009
 Son bought a Stratus 'set' Surrounds, mains, sub for ~ 1k$. These come really close to matching my Tannoy Golds.
Damned few speakers can manage that.

 

RE: great feedback..., posted on August 14, 2020 at 20:33:21
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3156
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018
 That is strange about the height dimensions seeming to be reversed. I wonder if the width and depth are out of whack as well?

Neither of the Infinities will have the controlled bass the Paradigm or Mirage do. But to be fair, that's also reflected in the build and price levels if you at original retail costs.

Cheers!

Jonesy






"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: heading out to audition some older speakers today, posted on August 15, 2020 at 00:14:16
dogwan
Audiophile

Posts: 871
Joined: December 16, 2004
 Coincidentally enough I am listening to a new to me pair of RS5's, which are just below the RS4/B.

I picked them up for basically free and spent some time getting them buffed out and gone through (sans re-cap, but maybe down the road). Details of my exploits can be found on a thread I created in the Infinity forum over on Audiokarma.

I can't offer much input on your choices in comparison. But, I can say that I am fairly impressed for their vintage. The Polydome gives a pretty ethereal mid-range, and the Emit tweeters are shimmer machines on the highs. I am sensitive to discordant highs and these just sing. The speakers I have been using up til now in my modest living room are newer Monitor Audio Silver RS6's and it's a very tight competition. The MA RS6's do have some detractors but I find them to be a very refined speaker.

As they say... YMMV, but I wish I had jumped on some other opportunities to pick up some vintage Infinity's in the past when I had the chance.

 

I'll never forget the one time I heard the Mirage M-3si, posted on August 15, 2020 at 10:01:22
Luminator
Audiophile

Posts: 7338
Location: Bay Area
Joined: December 11, 2000
 In the summer of 1994, my girlfriend ACS was between her junior and senior years at UC Berkeley. She was more familiar with the East Bay (in those pre-internet days, you had to use paper maps!), so she accompanied me, to meet up with an audiophile who lived in the Oakland Hills (Montclair?). It was kind of a rustic, hilly neighborhood, with cottage-like homes.

The living room was typical (small-to-medium sized), but opened to the dining room. So acoustically, this was larger than most Bay Area homes. The guy had the big, black, Mirage M-3si. Although only about 8.5" deep, the M-3si was a over 4' tall, and 1.5' wide. They were visually dominant, and did not aesthetically match the interior of that old Oakland home. ACS joked that the M-3si was bigger than herself. The audiophile almost came to a sweat, when he described the challenge of bringing the M-3si home, unboxing, moving them into place, and setting them up. Apparently, they weighed as much as a pudgy coed, like ACS. The audiophile said that handling the M-3si was a two-person job.

In this price and size range, ACS and I were familiar with the ubiquitous and popular Vandersteens. Maybe it was the open dining room behind the Mirages, but the M-3si seemed faster, more open, contrasty, and resolving, than Vandersteens. ACS and I had brought over Joe Satriani's double-CD, Time Machine. For such a HUGE speaker, the M-3si seemed more fleet-of-foot, than the competition.

Nor did ACS and I feel that the M-3si had a small "sweet spot." This was in contrast to our other favorite, the Martin-Logan Aerius i. At least in that home, you could walk around, lie down, and not hear weird things with the bipolar M-3si.

I don't recall anything about the guy's system. He kept offering wine, cheese, and beer, but ACS and I were non-drinkers. His M-3si were toed-in slightly. And I do recall him saying that bi-wiring was important. IIRC, he used Kimber 8TC down low, 4TC up top [we had originally met at San Francisco's Ultimate Sound, which was a Kimber dealer].

So if one has the space for a large dipole speaker, the Mirage M-3si, at a minimum, is a very interesting prospect. Just be aware that this model went into production in the early-90s. I know that seems like yesterday, but that was almost 30 years ago!

 

RE: heading out to audition some older speakers today, posted on August 16, 2020 at 14:33:04
BS64
Audiophile

Posts: 2451
Joined: July 17, 2000
 The midrange pot on one channel is scratchy. The static wouldn't stop unless I went full min or max. The bass was a bit bloated so I went full min on the midrange and full max on the treble. That eliminated the static and helped the bass, but this was after only 5-10 minutes of system warm up. So I walked away.

The 6001's have the polyspherite midrange. It's like a fuzzy fabric, including the surround.

Had a disc on repeat Firday evening, but never made it back up to the media room to listen. I work 12-hour shifts starting yesterday and ending Tuesday. So I won't have time to do any serious listening until at least Wed evening.

Did you clean the adjustment pots on the 5's? If so, what did you use? a friend of mine nearby restored his dad's reel-to-reel and a vintage receiver and had to clean up some noisy pots so I know he has some good advice to share. Just curious what you used to clean them up, if you did. thanks, and I will continue reading the Karma thread..

 

RE: heading out to audition some older speakers today, posted on August 16, 2020 at 15:24:08
dogwan
Audiophile

Posts: 871
Joined: December 16, 2004



The pots on mine had dead spots, but not too scratchy. I used DeOxit to clean them up, which was pretty easy to do since I had them open already and could easily get access to the back of the pots.

I don't find mine to bloated on the bass. It's stronger than you would guess from the specs and looking at the two smallish 6-1/2" woofers. But, it's fairly tight. At the same time the RS4/b's are dual 8" woofers (?) in a larger cab.

A couple things to note:

1, while rebuilding mine I found that the cabinets weren't very well sealed around the drivers. The woofers had been re-foamed and it looked like whoever did the job did not replace the foam gasket between the woofers and cabinets. Also the foam gaskets were missing on the Emit tweeters to cabinet. Since these are acoustic suspension they need a good seal to function properly in the bass range. I never did listen to them before tearing them down though I could tell the seal was bad by checking the rebound on the woofers when pushing them in (the old cigar smell dictated they were staying in the garage until stripped and re-sealed, and all drivers were properly cleaned). When I put mine back together I used soft putty to get a really good seal on all drivers. I think that really made for tight snappy bass.

2, The woofers are wired in series, and I understand it's not too uncommon for people to find this series of Infinity's with the drivers hooked up wrong after someone has been inside them (i.e., refoam or crossover work). I guess that if re-wired in parallel instead of series it really messes them up. If the drivers are in series but they get the polarity wrong I would expect cancellation and bass loss, but not sure on that.

Here's a pic of mine. The cinder blocks are temporary until I find a good stand solution. THe 5's are a weird size, too small to sit on the floor and I found that smeared the bass since they are not too stable on carpet. And, they are too tall for most conventional stands. I am thinking I need something like the JBL lincoln log stands.

 

RE: heading out to audition some older speakers today, posted on August 17, 2020 at 15:06:33
BS64
Audiophile

Posts: 2451
Joined: July 17, 2000
 The 6001's are an odd size as well at 33" tall. I have them slightly elevated and tilted back as I like to sit up off the floor. I bought a folding director's chair from Camping World a couple of years ago.

I want to put them on cinder blocks, also. That won't happen until at least Wednesday afternoon. I wasn't looking for a "project" speaker because these replacement speakers will allow me to work on the Gershmans. But when you start looking in the $500 price range and 30+ years of age it's inevitable. Keep in mind these are loan, no money has changed hands yet.

The Paradigm's sold, but the Mirage are still available. I told the seller I would definitely need to hear them in my room. We might make that happen at the end of the week. Thanks for the feedback...

 

RE: heading out to audition some older speakers today, posted on August 19, 2020 at 11:07:24
BS64
Audiophile

Posts: 2451
Joined: July 17, 2000
 I had a chance to listen for a couple of hours yesterday. They are quite nice. But I do feel that the volume has to be up a bit to get the HF output to match the LF output. So I'm concerned that they might not be good at low-level, late night listening. But maybe with a little work, i.e., cap replacements, adjustment pot cleaning? Haven't played around with speaker positioning other than toe in/out. A slight toe in with a crossing point a couple of feet behind the listening position worked the best yesterday. They are 40" out from the rear wall. Don't want to bring them too much further into the room, but I could scoot my chair a little closer. Need to try that today.

The seller also has 4/B's, which are 4" taller and have the polydome midrange, as yours do. I'm really curious how those would sound in my room. And how much difference there might be between the two midrange materials.

Addendum to this edited post - one speaker does have an issue with the midrange pot. Intermittent dead spots, and a crackling while music is playing. Low-level listening in a whisper quiet house before daybreak confirmed it. I even swapped the channels to see if it followed the right channel of my older B&K amp but it stayed with the speaker.

 

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