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is speaker break-in real?

76.4.87.90
Posted on June 19, 2017 at 06:15:00
ph5y
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 I often see a speaker's shortcoming explained as insufficient break-in or hear that the speaker will sound even better after break in. Since speakers are mechanical it makes some sense though one wonders why they wouldn't break them in at the factory so as to do their best in A-B showroom comparisons. Anyway I was wondering if there are any tests showing changes in frequency response, bass distortion, transient response, and other measurable aspects after break-in. It would be bizarre if break-in made a big difference to the sound but not to any measurable parameter.
It's never too late to turn back the clock.

 

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RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on June 19, 2017 at 06:42:46
volunteer
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Location: Louisville, KY
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 Probably but.......? As to why manufacturers don't do it? It takes time and time adds to the manufacturing cost. I've never seen before and after measurements. I like the idea.


-Wendell

 

Yes, posted on June 19, 2017 at 07:49:17
airtime
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 As you mentioned speakers are a very physical and mechanical device. Materials "loosen" and do change the finer contours of sound. I DIYed speakers for years in the 90's so i did have my hands on plenty of new drivers and did experience that. More so with larger cones.

However does break in radically change the sound - NO !!!

Break in even in electronic circuits is just a settling in of materials. If the device doesn't sound right at first listen then no amount of break in is going to change that.

So yes there is a break in. But break in has been elevated to mystical magical levels that DO NOT exist.

Now tube burn in is a tad different. I have a Sherwood S-5000 integrated amp. When ever I put in a new linestage tube in V5 position it hums for the first 5-7 hours. Gradually fading away.

 

Yes, it is, although many dispute this..., posted on June 19, 2017 at 07:58:08
jonbee
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Posts: 1993
Location: Seattle
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 for unknown reasons. Danny at GR Research has posted before and after measurements on one of his drivers on the GR Research site. Driver resonant frequency falls and compliance increases, both as one would expect, and not by a small amount. This also causes changes in how the crossovers interact with drivers.
It takes a few hours at least for this to occur, and no mfr. can put this much time into break in of the products. Speakers are designed around optimized, i.e. broken in components. That's what the driver makers are giving out.

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on June 19, 2017 at 08:04:10
marlin
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Posts: 154
Location: Sandy, Oregon
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 The change after break-in is not night and day from my experience but is significant. My Von Schweikerts took about 500 hrs and made quite a difference. I was skeptical before that.
Without music what is there?

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on June 19, 2017 at 08:15:52
PAR
 " I've never seen before and after measurements".

I seem to recall tnat one of the UK magazines did publish before and after break-in measurements for one loudspeakers in a test run (I think) by Keith Howard. That would indicate the magazine to have been Hi-Fi Answers and the date, maybe 35 years ago.

The test did reveal some small differences, I think related to the spider. However available materials and techniques have improved substantially over the intervening years so what may once have been a common requirement may no longer be so. A bit like motor cars. When I was a boy sixty years ago I would commonly see cars pootling along the road with a sign in the back window reading " Running In , Please Pass". In those days a new car was limited to low speed running for the first few hundred miles as it was not then possible to machine to the degree of accuracy now commonplace. Hence that final degree was achieved basically through wear of adjacent parts. It's no longer necessary to do this. Could that also be the case for some modern speakers?

BTW, Howard also tested the effect of humidity of the FR of speakers. Again differences were measured. Not surprising as both spider and cone materials can be hygroscopic. Still, another thing to factor out when evaluating burn-in.

 

The manufacturers recommend it..., posted on June 19, 2017 at 08:17:56
mkuller
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Posts: 38130
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 ...ask them how long and why.

 

Bad information., posted on June 19, 2017 at 08:23:58
MikeCh
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Posts: 1113
Joined: November 16, 2002
 "This also causes changes in how the crossovers interact with drivers."

Or you are misquoting or mischaracterizing the results.

A change in a woofer's resonant frequency has nothing to do with how it interacts with the crossover (unless it's high-passed, which is unusual). It does have something to do with how the woofer interacts with the box it's placed in, though.

Never seen any proof that a tweeter or high-passed driver changes its TS parameters over time. Perhaps you can reference another's work who has?

 

I'm with Mike - ask the manufacturer, posted on June 19, 2017 at 08:54:00
E-Stat
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 As much due to caps in the electronics as the driver(s). Mine needed a good hundred hours or so before the bass response was optimum.

I wouldn't obsess over it though.

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on June 19, 2017 at 09:08:49
Kingshead
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 As a machinist I made jet engine parts to quite high tolerances. We've been making jet engines longer than I've been alive, so your thinking engine break in has something to do with machining abilities is hilarious.

It was thought at the time it was better to let the rings seat themselves into the cast iron cylinder walls, thus making a better seal. Nowadays with aluminum blocks and heads with nikasil cylinder liners etc this technique has been virtually abandoned in gasoline engines.

Martin

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on June 19, 2017 at 09:36:56
PAR
 Thank you for the interesting correction. However it still fits with my contention that " However available materials and techniques have improved substantially over the intervening years so what may once have been a common requirement may no longer be so".

 

Yesss., posted on June 19, 2017 at 10:58:29
bare
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 Unlike electro bits.. where Break in is typically dubious or imaginary.
Drivers have a fabric/composite Spider which is essentially the things spring.
These DO soften from initial manufacture with usages... intentionally.
No News there... or at least there shouldn't be :-)
How long does this process take is the real question.

Vandersteen used to fill a room of just received Drivers and attach them in series then apply wall plug power for ~ a week.. for initial break in purposes.
Notably Vandys still required a fairly long 'owner break in' period as well.
Only said used to as I'haven't seen their current prod techniques. However I recently bought some Mark Audio Full rangers and they Absolutely bettered after about ~200 hours usage.
Going from What did I buy!? to: hey! these aren't bad for what they are.

 

err., posted on June 19, 2017 at 11:15:10
MikeCh
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 Notably Vandys still required a fairly long 'owner break in' period as well.

Apparently ye olde urban legend is still alive. When I was working for the world's largest Vandersteen dealer that was one of the many ill-conceived rumours that was often used by competing dealers. It's also a common trick for the dealer to tell his customer so they aren't so quick to return their new purchase in remorse.

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on June 19, 2017 at 11:47:05
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

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 Tests were made by Paul Barton (PSB Speaker) a while back and reported on soundstagelive but the link fails now. Here is a quote from it:

"Finally, and perhaps most controversially, Barton talks about the supposed break-in effect of components that has become so popular in audio today. Break-in refers to running components for a long time (sometimes hundreds of hours) to the point where their components "settle" into their proper operating mode. Barton doesn't doubt that some components do change subtly, but he thinks that the major improvements people think they're hearing aren't in the components at all. Barton doesn't doubt that people are hearing these changes, but thinks that what they're hearing is actually brain
break-in.

Barton has examined his own speakers to test this. He has taken a Stratus Gold loudspeaker, built and measured some ten years ago, and re-measured it today. The deviation is slight, perhaps 1/4dB at most. Although that deviation can possibly be heard, it is certainly not a huge difference that one may attest to hearing. Instead, Barton surmises that the difference in sound that people are hearing over time is conditioning of the brain. He cites experiments done with sight that indicate the brain can accommodate for enormous changes fairly quickly and certainly within the hundreds of hours that audiophiles claim changes occur in. Could this apply to hearing, too? Barton thinks that more often than not, what happens is that the changes in perceived sound that are attributed to component break-in are simply the brain becoming accustomed to the sound. He warns listeners not to fool themselves."

 

I've believed this to be the case. Does the speaker change or the listener adapt?, posted on June 19, 2017 at 12:01:19
volunteer
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Posts: 5666
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 "Barton thinks that more often than not, what happens is that the
changes in perceived sound that are attributed to component break-in are
simply the brain becoming accustomed to the sound. He warns listeners not
to fool themselves."


-Wendell

 

I've believed this to be the case: Me, too. (NT), posted on June 19, 2017 at 14:12:12
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

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Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on June 19, 2017 at 15:07:06
Inmate51
 "Barton surmises that the difference in sound that people are hearing over time is conditioning of the brain."

NO WAY!

Hahahahaha!

So TWO of us have figured that out.

;)

 

Simple answer, posted on June 19, 2017 at 23:35:14
kavakidd
Audiophile

Posts: 20316
Location: Upstate NY
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 YES
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

 

finally, posted on June 20, 2017 at 03:21:46
3db
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 Someone steps in and shatters another aufiophile myth.

 

Count me in, posted on June 20, 2017 at 03:24:40
3db
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 Its about time truth comes out.

 

I'm in the brain break-in camp, posted on June 20, 2017 at 05:14:08
mcondo
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Joined: May 12, 2002
 Who can remember what a speaker sounded like 500 hours ago? Nonsense - break in is over once you play a well known cut and hear better imaging, soundstage or whatever over the prior speaker/component. That may happen immediately or take a long time, depends on how much better the new piece is over what it replaces.

 

RE: I've believed this to be the case: Me, too. (NT), posted on June 20, 2017 at 07:03:53
Inmate51
 I'm often amused that, when a person is excited about a purchase, after a "break-in" period it always sounds even better - not worse.

:)

 

Yes., posted on June 20, 2017 at 07:10:00
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

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 And how does one know that break-in is not just the initial phase of a slower deterioration? ;-)

 

RE: Yes., posted on June 20, 2017 at 07:13:57
Kingshead
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 I guess one could also say the years from birth to adulthood are also just the beginnings of dieing, but it seems sort of ludicrous doesn't it?

Martin

 

It's not scientific proof but this is what happened to me, posted on June 20, 2017 at 08:45:03
airtime
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 I recently DIY built one subwoofer to make a stereo sub setup. NEW drivers and amps. So I used a test tone and SPL meter to balance the best I could.

I set the new sub using my SPL meter and recorded different levels at various tone levels. Well, I got busy and come back to it two or three weeks later. No settings were changed but the tones in the 50-70hz range increased about 3-5db. Don't take too much on the actual values because these are "rough" measurement techniques.

Again I don't believe in the magical mystical break in myth. But there is a small degree of break in. And again, if it doesn't sound right at first play no amount of break in is going to fix that.

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on June 20, 2017 at 11:01:59
AudioSoul
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Posts: 4594
Location: north central AZ
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I do believe in break in and have experienced break in on new and old speakers. My recent new speakers Tekton Lore sounded flat right out of the box then within 30 hours the sound-staging came both side to side and front to back. With older speakers that haven't been used for awhile, the surrounds stiffen from lack of use and it helps to play some bass heavy music to flex then a little....

 

No. , posted on June 20, 2017 at 11:45:11
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

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 Pessimistic, perhaps, but not ludicrous

 

RE: It's not scientific proof but this is what happened to me, posted on June 20, 2017 at 16:42:39
ahendler
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Location: San Antonio, Texas
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 My Lowther PM2A's were unlistenable when brand new. Super bright. It took 100 hours of constant playing before I could listen to them. So some speakers definitely breakin.
Alan

 

RE: I'm in the brain break-in camp, posted on June 20, 2017 at 16:45:54
ahendler
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 As I stated above 100 hours for my Lowthers. Could not listen to them at all before 40 hours because they were so super brite. I do not think that most other equipment breaks in. If they do it is very slight
Alan

 

RE: I'm in the brain break-in camp, posted on June 20, 2017 at 19:01:47
bare
Audiophile

Posts: 1879
Joined: April 14, 2009
 Whatever :-) I've experienced it and I neither hold to Break in in electronics nor Iffy wire claims. Having Never experienced such in ~50 years of 'this' hobby.
Al Bundy audio salesmens' claims aside :-)
Engine break in even with Nikasil bores IS real though.
Been there.. ruined a couple by believing it wasn't.
An expensive lesson not easily forgotten.
But Hey! we are(?) adults.. Follow your own dogma.

 

Yet, you bought them., posted on June 20, 2017 at 20:54:25
Inmate51
 Huh.

 

RE: Yet, you bought them., posted on June 20, 2017 at 21:06:04
ahendler
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 I had already heard fully broken in Lowthers which sounded sensational and the distributor had told me that they would sound like crap until at least 40 hours.
Alan

 

"So some speakers definitely breakin.", posted on June 21, 2017 at 05:09:37
volunteer
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Location: Louisville, KY
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 Or you just got used to the sound. :-)


-Wendell

 

RE: "So some speakers definitely breakin.", posted on June 21, 2017 at 05:29:04
ahendler
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 In the case of the Lowthers it certainly was not getting used to the sound. As I said when new you could not listen to them at all.
Alan

 

Gallo speakers and their legendary break-in needs, posted on June 21, 2017 at 06:31:31
Dave Pogue
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 Back when the Gallo Reference 3 series was new (around 2004) -- I had a pair -- the need for break-in was painfully obvious. They sounded okay out of the box and then entered a period where they became almost unlistenable. This was a frequent topic here (AA) and elsewhere. Many were sold, used, with the notation, "not even fully broken in," which, to the lnowledgable, meant that their owners had given up on them. If you assumed this WAS a break-in issue -- or read enough to take the chance -- you were rewarded handsomely. But it took time.

This was not -- repeat, NOT -- a phenomenon where the listener was breaking in to the speakers. The owner's manual was explicit in saying that it took 100 hours. And it certainly did., at the minimum. One of the break-in "short-cuts" was to put the Gallos head to head, throw a heavy blanket over them, play a CD on repeat, as loud as you could stand it, and leave the room.

 

RE: Yes, posted on June 21, 2017 at 06:54:43
Bromo33333
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 "However does break in radically change the sound - NO !!!"

The sound will tend to change a little. Whether it is "radically different" or "just a little bit" depends upon your expectations and sensitivity to sound differences.

The Thiels we currently own and use took awhile to mellow from new. FOr me this was a big and welcome development to my enjoyment. But their fundamental characteristics did not change - just the sound softened a little, the bass and treble extension seemed to improve a little bit and the whole thing seemed to be more coherent.

I think the shouting matches online really spring from the notion that one person's small change for the better is another person's big improvement.

As I have tweaked on my stereo over the last decade(s) I have noticed that the changes can be quite subtle, but feel VERY significant when you are getting close to the realism you want.

Like the last 0.5mm of twist on a telescope that brings everything into focus is very significant, but the first 15mm of twist have bigger changes.
====
"You are precisely as big as what you love and precisely as small as what you allow to annoy you." ~ R A Wilson

 

It's really a shame that, posted on June 21, 2017 at 07:01:05
E-Stat
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 talented designers like Richard Vandersteen don't understand their products as well as do the salesmen. ;)

Ask Richard

"VANDERSTEEN'S START BREAKING IN THE MINUTE YOU START PLAYING THEM. THE PROCESS IS COMPLETE IN 400 HOURS WITH MOST OF IT OCCURRING IN THE FIRST 100 HOURS."

 

RE: It's really a shame that, posted on June 21, 2017 at 07:12:25
Davey
 Without specifying what type of excitation is used, defining a speaker break-in period is fantasy and WAG.

If break-in is real, the speakers should be not listening to with music during the break-in period. I suggest pink/brown-noise.

Dave.

 

Why don't you, posted on June 21, 2017 at 07:31:38
E-Stat
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 If break-in is real, the speakers should be not listening to with music during the break-in period. I suggest pink/brown-noise.

Ask Richard yourself? I periodically play the Ayre IBE with my systems. :)

Another one of his observations:

"HELLO STAN, WE BREAK-IN DRIVERS AND OTHER COMPONENTS FOR 1000 HOURS BEFORE ANY DESIGN WORK IS DONE. THEY WILL CONTINUE TO CHANGE ALTHOUGH SLIGHTLY UNTIL AT LEAST 400 HOURS."

 

RE: Why don't you, posted on June 21, 2017 at 08:20:16
Davey
 Not listening to the speakers (during break-in) takes the brain out of the evaluation process. It's a pretty simple concept.

The spectral content obviously could drastically change the excursions of the drivers during said break-in period. That's also a pretty simple concept.

I'm sorry, but I don't need Richard Vandersteen to explain this type of thing to me.

Dave.

 

RE: It's really a shame that, posted on June 21, 2017 at 08:39:43
airtime
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 I've found that the stiffer the cone material the longer the break in. However 100-400 hours - ahhhhhhh there's a lotta bull going on there!

Come to think of it my new sneakers take that long to break in. So maybe they really ARE onto something????

 

Are you an ice skater?, posted on June 21, 2017 at 09:58:34
E-Stat
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 Come to think of it my new sneakers take that long to break in.

Skating boots (which are stiff as heck) require a long and uncomfortable break in period. :)

 

Ah a scope man, posted on June 21, 2017 at 10:03:52
airtime
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 I've dabbled in astronomy for 25 plus years. Since I moved I haven't yet setup my scope. But I am looking forward to using it again.

 

RE: Why don't you, posted on June 21, 2017 at 10:15:59
E-Stat
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 The spectral content obviously could drastically change the excursions of the drivers during said break-in period. That's also a pretty simple concept.

No disagreement there. Your opinion, however, seems to differ from his regarding the necessity for using various types of noise in that process.

"VANDERSTEEN'S START BREAKING IN THE MINUTE YOU START PLAYING THEM"

Note, too that his previous observation is not limited to drivers:

"WE BREAK-IN DRIVERS AND OTHER COMPONENTS..."

 

RE: Yes, posted on June 21, 2017 at 10:55:25
ahendler
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 As explained above with the Gallo and Lowther speakers it was a radical sound change. For most speakers the change is small
Alan

 

Why I'm an Audiophool: Reason #5., posted on June 21, 2017 at 12:26:58
MikeCh
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Posts: 1113
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 If some self-proclaimed know-it-all audiophool wishes to propagate misinformation for whatever agenda, that's fine.

Having worked in the industry and having met Vandersteen many times, I'm offering an industry insight that many are not privy to. You can take that for what you paid for it.

p.s. Hats off the OP for the finely crafted troll.

 

Yes, most definitely true. , posted on June 21, 2017 at 15:20:06
MikeCh
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 Says so right here: http://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/07/blue-horizon-proburn-cable-burner.html

"It is a well-known fact that high-quality audio and video cables improve over time when used in a hi-fi or home cinema system."

 

You nailed it!, posted on June 21, 2017 at 15:27:24
David S.
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 I bought some used Gallo Nucleus Reference 3.0s (last before the 3.1, with no switch in the back) at a price that I knew I could flip them again if they sucked.

Well? Yeah... they sucked. Before flipping them? Put them woofer to woofer (inverted) under as many blankets as I had & ran it at VERY high levels with a crazy test CD that featured everything from a Huey chopper landing to test tones. Amp driving it at the time was an Innersound ESL-300 - so certainly wasn't gonna clip. We're talking at least a day or two running through that.

Before "break in?" NO "meat on the bone," some decent detail, but otherwise threadbare. Bass mostly "thump, thump, thump."

After? Well, I still have them. Currently installed at my shop, have VTL Ultimate preamp up front, each driven by a VTL Deluxe 120. Yeah, I MIGHT get rid of them one of these days, but only because I'll move out of my shop & I'm a "B&W fanboy" and have 802 Matrix at home.

 

break-in real?, posted on June 21, 2017 at 15:46:44
hifitommy
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 no question mark. parts that move and flex are bound to have brak-in periods of some length of time or other. long term listening is required and that for the indwelling capacitors as well.

being an experienced listener is a big plus here. as you listen, you don't need to be paying attention, the change will make itself evident. a/b testing here is useless as not everything can be that quickly observed. likewise, can be said of conventional measuring techniques as you would first have to know WHAT to measure.

differences in imaging are not refined with the aforesaid conventional measurements. these are characteristics that even change as a cable burns in.

nobody expects you to have blind faith. if you don't hear it, dont spend the extra effort to find these answers. save yourself the time and if you eventually hear differences, you're just going crazy by your own definition.


...regards...tr

 

RE: Why don't you, posted on June 21, 2017 at 16:25:21
Davey
 You've lifted a few quotes there, but I see nothing inferring a disagreement regarding noise in the break-in process.

Noise is simply a much more suitable/quicker break-in excitation signal.....if a person believes in break-in.

Rather than extrapolating comments from two folks and trying to create a psuedo-disagreement, how about limiting your comments to your own experience regarding break-in effects????

Dave.

 

RE: Why don't you, posted on June 21, 2017 at 18:37:33
E-Stat
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 but I see nothing inferring a disagreement regarding noise in the break-in process.

Do you usually "play" brown noise on your system? Is it your perception that most folks have brown or pink noise to play?

Rather than extrapolating comments from two folks and trying to create a psuedo-disagreement

How many Richard Vandersteens are there? I visited his website (follow the previously provided link to "Ask Richard") and reviewed his many comments about what he thinks about break in.

You're certainly welcome to disagree with what you find written by him on his website. :)

 

RE: Yes, most definitely true. , posted on June 21, 2017 at 19:23:01
airtime
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 So expensive cables break in and speakers don't?

 

RE: "So some speakers definitely breakin.", posted on June 22, 2017 at 03:04:37
3db
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 Why did you buy them if they sounded horrid? Something is not adding up here. Why purchase a speaker that sounds bad in hopes that break-in will make it sound better? It could have ended up sounding worse.

 

RE: Yes, most definitely true. , posted on June 22, 2017 at 03:08:00
3db
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 Do you have any facts other than advertising glossies that back that up?

 

That's an easy one., posted on June 22, 2017 at 04:41:45
Dave Pogue
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 At the time the Gallo Reference 3s were introduced, the vibe (from reviewers who heard them broken in) was pretty much a uniform rave. Beginning with 6moons and The Absolute Sound. At the same time, early adopters who actually read their owners manuals (horrors!) noted the break-in requirements (100 hours). It seemed to me, and I guess to others, a small price to pay. But as noted, if you didn't read (or get) the word, you may have dumped yours midway in the break-in period.

 

It has little or nothing to do with "noise" per se, posted on June 22, 2017 at 04:51:08
Dave Pogue
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 Again referencing the Gallos, the break-in period was marked by a severe hardness and lifelessness that was really difficult to listen to. I'd listen to the speakers and if I hadn't already known/read/heard about the break-in nasties, wonder what the hell was going on. Even though I did, it was pretty scary for a while. And when the speakers did open up and sing, it was a major relief.

This whole thing -- from opening the boxes to the end of break-in -- took little more than a week in my case, so it's really no big deal, however "big" it seemed at the time.

 

RE: Why don't you, posted on June 22, 2017 at 06:42:22
Davey
 My perception is...that any audiophile who's aware of (and interested in) break-in requirements of speakers will surely be capable of finding some pink noise excitation signal. It's extremely easy to find on the internet and/or a person could easily generate a track with their computer.

FYI, playing pink noise on a pair of speakers (facing each other) with one wired in opposite polarity is a break-in procedure that's been used for many decades.

Dave.

 

RE: It has little or nothing to do with "noise" per se, posted on June 22, 2017 at 06:47:17
Davey
 You've totally missed the point of my post.
"Noise" is not what I was referring to. I am talking about noise....actual pink noise which has definable 1/f quality and is useful for break-in of electro-mechanical components without actual music listening biasing the break-in procedure.

Dave.

 

Entirely reasonable response, posted on June 22, 2017 at 07:12:05
E-Stat
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Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 And have no reason to disagree with the concept or potential value, but...

how many folks will actually "play" pink noise for 100-400 hours on their systems?

I can understand that being done more readily in a lab or manufacturing environment where such could be automated and could well be how Vandersteen gets the stated 1000 hours on their drivers "before doing any design work".

 

RE: Why don't you, posted on June 22, 2017 at 07:15:57
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 Companies use pink or white noise because that's the generators they have. Not that it's bad because it is random and does have more bottom octave. And that's were a lot of the break in lies. In the larger cones.

 

Sorry I confused noise with "noise.", posted on June 22, 2017 at 07:20:53
Dave Pogue
Audiophile

Posts: 11689
Location: DC Area
Joined: October 9, 2001
 My own favorite break-in "noise" is Track 8, "Burn-in Tones" from the Sheffield/XLO Test Burn-in CD. I recorded a CDR of this track a number of times, and use it in the way you note, with the player set on "repeat." Would probably have been simpler just to repeat Track 8 but some of us audiophiles tend to do things the hard way :-)

 

RE: "So some speakers definitely breakin.", posted on June 22, 2017 at 07:25:32
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 Your powers of addition are very poor. As I explained elsewhere in this post I had heard several of these speakers that were broken in and they sounded terrific. The distributor explained clearly that they would need 40 to 100 hours until they started to sound good. This was exactly what happened and they remained my reference speakers for many years. Does it add up now for you?
Alan

 

Come to think of it I unknowingly DID do experiments in break in, posted on June 22, 2017 at 07:32:35
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 In the mid 90's I was obsessed with building NEW Dynaco A-25 speakers. Over an 5 year period I ordered about 5 sets of drivers. Seas 25F-EW 10" woofers, Morel MDT-20 tweeters and the famed Seas 25TDFC tweeters. Morel MDM-55 midranges and Peerless mids (forgot the numbers)

So again using my SPL meter I was trying to get a smooth crossover in and around the 1500Hz mark for the two way version and LEAP designs for the three way versions.

With usage the speakers range extended very slightly but mainly there was and increased in db at both extended ranges. I found this MAINLY on the woofer.

The tweeters - now here's the odd part - they would get very spiky in SPL reading very easily with little or no increase in their extension. Almost like a ringing effect.

But on a few smaller midranges I found both the sudden SPL spikes and increased db in their extended range.

This all smoothed out VERY quickly. Like in around an hour.

 

RE: break-in real?, posted on June 22, 2017 at 07:49:55
Inmate51
 You raise an important point, one which is often ignored and/or pooh-poohed by audiophiles who often really don't want to know - preferring to believe whatever their dogma is.

That point is "what to measure". For a long time in the history of acoustics and psychoacoustics, engineers and physicists were limited in what they COULD measure. With the advent of FFT, impulse response, time-gated measurements, waterfall plots and time/energy/frequency, etc., decades ago, we can pretty much measure whatever we want. Heck, it's gotten so ridiculous that any arm-chair audiophile can measure this stuff in the comfort of their own home with a PC and free or cheap software.

So, the amazing lack of evidence provided by manufacturers which actually have R&D departments speaks volumes. It's my position that they don't want us to know, preferring to keep it the subject of myth, conjecture and uncertainty, all of which fuels the audiophile appetite for magazines, forums and advertising.

So, now let's get right down to it: Measure a speaker from a manufacturer which claims that it needs a break-in period. Measure it six ways to Sunday. Take meticulous notes on level, ambient noise, speaker position, room furnishings, microphone placement, etc. Details matter! Then, run the speaker as specified by the manufacturer for the specified time of break-in. Then, repeat the measurements EXACTLY. Get back to me.

On an important related issue, what constitutes appropriate break-in? Can you play a low single frequency for the woofer, another appropriate tone for the mid, and another for the tweety for the required 40 to 400 hours, or, does it have to be pink noise or your favorite music selections?

Let's consider frequencies. Suppose a person plays a tone of 100 Hz. That requires the speaker to move back and forth 100 times per second. How many times does it have to move in order to "break in"? A million times, a billion times? A million times would be 10,000 seconds (166 minutes - 2.77 hours).

Lastly, given that mechanical devices are in play here, do they ever stop "breaking-in", or do they continue to change, and, do they ever change for the worse?

:)

 

RE: Entirely reasonable response, posted on June 22, 2017 at 07:55:58
Davey
 You don't read too well. I've already answered that question, but I'll answer it again anyway.

Read carefully this time......Anybody who wants to accelerate the process of break-in for their speakers and not be swayed by subjective evaluation during said process.

Dave.

 

RE: Why I'm an Audiophool: Reason #5., posted on June 22, 2017 at 07:58:56
Dave_K
 That info about Vandersteen break-in comes from RV himself. Are you saying you know his speakers better than he does?

 

I understood you the first two times!, posted on June 22, 2017 at 08:17:54
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37584
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Sheesh!

 

RE: I understood you the first two times!, posted on June 22, 2017 at 10:23:16
Davey
 The dementia must have a strong hold on you. So sorry.

Dave.

 

For some reason, posted on June 22, 2017 at 11:33:41
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37584
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 you failed to respond to subsequent questions of mine. Go figure. :)

 

RE: For some reason, posted on June 22, 2017 at 15:06:09
Davey
 I only respond to serious questions.

Dave.

 

Maybe in time, posted on June 22, 2017 at 15:33:30
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37584
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 you'll figure out how many Richard Vandersteens there are whose comments I've quoted. :)

 

RE: Maybe in time, posted on June 22, 2017 at 16:20:43
Davey
 That's your problem. Quoting everybody else and not understanding any of it yourself.
Your lack of technical knowledge was obvious to me immediately in our first go 'round. I identified you as a troll right then. :)

Cheers,

Dave.

 

Mr. Surly speaks!, posted on June 22, 2017 at 17:47:59
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37584
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Clearly, you're not a "big picture" kind of guy. :)

1. Bare references Vandersteen as an example
2. Salesman says Bare is incorrect because "he's an insider"
3. Quite amused with the "insider's" assertion, I observe that Richard Vandersteen's (everybody else to you) many comments from his website don't agree with his perception.

 

Actually it does not., posted on June 23, 2017 at 18:13:58
mrdavis842
Audiophile

Posts: 274
Joined: February 22, 2013
 That is exactly what is happening. From the time you are born you begin aging or dying, nothing ludicrous about it.

 

RE: Actually it does not., posted on June 24, 2017 at 05:23:02
Kingshead
Audiophile

Posts: 574
Location: Florida
Joined: September 14, 2016
 Following that track then I guess death would begin with conception, as I said, "ludicrous" lol.

And as our parents were also "dieing" at conception then I guess following that train death began with the creation of thought trillions of yrs before the universe began.

Ludicrous

Martin

 

Actually...................., posted on June 24, 2017 at 06:44:04
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12435
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002
 The concept is not ludicrous but your obsession with it is.

 

RE: Actually it does not., posted on June 24, 2017 at 07:16:54
mrdavis842
Audiophile

Posts: 274
Joined: February 22, 2013
 Yes that is correct, at conception. Yes our parents were also dying at conception.

"Creation of thought trillions of years before the universe began" - that's ludicrous. LOL

 

Hah! An actual test!, posted on June 24, 2017 at 10:55:36
ph5y
Audiophile

Posts: 178
Location: DC
Joined: October 30, 2010
 Thanks for this helpful info. Given the way break-in is routinely alluded to in equipment reviews, you would think there would be more interest in measuring the phenomenon. One gets the impression that talk about break-in is just intended as an inoculation against any perceived failings. While objective measurement cannot determine the quality of a speaker, or determine whether two speakers will sound the same, it would be, as I said, surprising if break-in effects were large but never measurable.
The brain break-in is obvious in that when you first listen to a speaker you notice what is different about it but after you have owned it for a year it sounds unremarkable.
It's never too late to turn back the clock.

 

RE: Hah! An actual test!, posted on June 24, 2017 at 21:24:38
Kingshead
Audiophile

Posts: 574
Location: Florida
Joined: September 14, 2016
 "The brain break-in is obvious in that when you first listen to a speaker you notice what is different about it but after you have owned it for a year it sounds unremarkable."

And why it's good to have more than one pair/type of speaker. In some systems I have planar drivers, another horns, and another conventional dynamic drivers. Each setup has its own presentation, with the horns they are here, with the planar you are there. One system accuracy, another it's boogie time, so yes you can have it all.

I never fail to find my music remarkable, each time I listen to one system I think "this is the best I've ever heard", then I listen to another of my systems lol.

Martin

 

Break-in of my Tannoys required several weeks, posted on June 25, 2017 at 12:42:07
Jay Buridan
Audiophile

Posts: 10271
Location: Michigan
Joined: January 21, 2004
 The 15" DCs sounded awful before they sounded glorious.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on June 27, 2017 at 15:34:27
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
 Yes...

But replacing one sonic reference with another (new speakers) is also a factor, because surely you're not listening to music for the first time! ;)

If you're listening to music for the first time on new speakers, then yes... all perceived changes to the sonic signature are ALL related to break-in. ;)

A fun game to play is flip your old speakers back into the rig once in a blue moon - and take note of what jumps out at you. The more you do this, the more differences you can begin to identify. Then the fun happens when you expect these differences and on a given day they don't happen! ;)

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on June 27, 2017 at 16:24:12
mapirc
 Speaker break-in is real, simply because material creep (modulus relaxation at constant strain, or increased strain for constant stress) is real. Organic materials are often quite prone to it; inorganic materials generally aren't. As a senior design engineer, that completely nails it.

Incidentally, the popular opinion is that speaker break-in uniformly improves performance. There are many instances where measurements and careful listening tests have proven the opposite.

But going back many posts to Paul Barton's claims as relayed by Kal, there is no question that the perceptual component of the matter is quite real too.

Best,
Mark

 

My Thiels took about 600 hours, posted on June 28, 2017 at 17:46:31
Paul_A
Audiophile

Posts: 2553
Location: New York City
Joined: April 3, 2000
 When I bought them they sounded terrible. Now they sound great. For weeks, I thought I would need to buy a subwoofer; the bass is very strong now. The soundstage went from pretty lousy to pretty terrific.

 

RE: My Thiels took about 600 hours, posted on June 28, 2017 at 18:19:08
Inmate51
 "When I bought them they sounded terrible. "

Yet, you bought them.

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on June 28, 2017 at 19:24:38
russ69
Audiophile

Posts: 951
Joined: December 13, 2009
 "Incidentally, the popular opinion is that speaker break-in uniformly improves performance. There are many instances where measurements and careful listening tests have proven the opposite."

That was my experience with a fresh pair of Klipsch RF-25s. I plugged them into my known system and was very impressed. I was thinking, yes they are reference level speakers. Very detailed and extended. Two hours later things loosened up and the speakers got a lot warmer and lost their edge. Completely different and not subtle. Never experienced this before or since, typically I can't hear much change from new loudspeakers.

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on June 28, 2017 at 21:03:54
mapirc
 Can't say I'm surprised. Different speakers have different reactions to break-in. Plus, break-in is not a unique state, but drifts over time, and in response to the severity of the break-in regimen. The manufacturer, for example, probably uses a single break-in regimen for all samples of a given product, and this may or may not (usually the latter) approximate how the end user will exercise the product.

The governing PDE's for creep are usually first order, so the solution is exponential with a characteristic time constant. However, creep in a loudspeaker responds to more than one mechanism, so there are usually at least two significant time constants at play. Even more complex, there is a measure of recovery in mechanical properties after exercise, so "break-in" per se isn't a monotonic, deterministic progression, but rather a "two steps forward, one step back" kind of phenomenon.

There are also very long-term changes that take years to come to light, such as very slow, but relatively steady, continued cross-linking of bonds in synthetic rubbers. I have a Focal driver from the 1980's that, back in the day, had a soft surround made from a synthetic rubber (I'm guessing NBR or SBR, not sure.) Today, the surround is as stiff and as brittle as glass; indeed, sections of the surround have broken off in response to mild finger pressure.

The topic of speaker break-in is huge and generally a headache for manufacturers...

Best,
Mark

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on June 30, 2017 at 04:21:38
beach cruiser
Audiophile

Posts: 7054
Location: so cal
Joined: September 24, 2003
 I would think the quality of the driver would effect the consistency of the results over time, since they are high tolerance motors at heart, and deviations from manufacturing specifications are usually considered signs of future failure.

I can see how a speaker with a paper surround would change with use, and also see newer , designs with materials that can handle many flex cycles with little change.

MY speakers sounded good when new, and were even more pleasing as I got used to them. Since I had read so much about break in, I thought that is what I had heard.

But then, on second thought , even though I heard it, it was nonsense. The quality of the drivers precluded such variations in performance. The S.E.A..S driver company was founded by a medical researcher who needed more accuracy in drivers to run the hearing test he needed. So this company made custom medical research grade drivers for my speakers, and the resultant consistent performance was part of the super computer aided design. Radical or mild changes in audio perception doesn't jive with anything except brain or power fluctuations in my case. What I heard was me getting settled into the new speakers .

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on June 30, 2017 at 07:03:11
PAR
 Well, you are saying that something changed as you listened to your speakers over a period. It may have been the speaker, it may have been you or (for logical purposes) it may have been something else.

As you have reached your conclusion only by deduction I would suggest that more is needed to to validate it.

You have made the assumption that because the tweeter manufacturer started the company for medical research in the area of hearing and uses sophisticated design procedures that the quality if the drivers is such that variations in performance could (or should?) not occur. I have to say that seems to be a non-sequitur. Even if it is assumed that each driver measures identically as they come off the production line there isn't anything in that by itself to indicate that they would not change, by whatever degree, over time in use.

In order to help validate your conclusion you would, for example, need to listen to the pair that you have become used to in direct comparison to a pair with identical specification that came straight from the factory. If you had and if, for the purposes of argument, they sounded effectively identical , would you have been able to guarantee that the pair straight out of the factory was completely unused and that they e.g. hadn't been running on test there for days?

Did you eliminate the " something else" effect, for example an un-notified improvement to your local mains electical supply at the point where you thought that the speakers now sounded better to you? You mentioned power fluctuations but that is not the only factor affecting mains supply which may affect the sound that you hear from your system.

As you reached the conclusion that it was you that had changed in some way by becoming used to them did you have your hearing measured before and after you reached the point of realising that you preferred them now to originally? Perhaps something physiological rather than psychological altered.

One can go on and on adding new relevant matters for consideration.

I am simply making the point that arriving at a valid conclusion on matters such as this may be complex and require considerable effort beyond what just seems to be the case.

Incidentally I recently had the tweeters in my own loudspeakers changed (co-incidentally from SEAS) and I was certainly under the impression that I preferred the result after a couple of weeks of playing the revised speakers even though they sounded great to me from the outset. The effect certainly seems subjectively real as far as I am concerned but, if so, was it me, the speaker or something else? I don't know.

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on June 30, 2017 at 13:09:24
mapirc
 Hi beach cruiser,

"High quality" can be defined in different ways, but parts with high creep may afford a good mechano-acoustic benefit in one aspect(such as high loss factor and thus good dampening of resonances,) while it may afford a detriment in another (such as large change with break-in or change in properties in response to drive level.) High creep may not be indicative of a higher propensity of eventual product failure - I'm thinking here of how IIR or many dampened cloths behave, for example.

For these reasons trying to associate creep with quality is tricky.

Thanks,
Mark

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on July 1, 2017 at 20:14:32
Ayya Khema
Audiophile

Posts: 7
Joined: March 18, 2017
 yes
drivers break in
tubes, caps do as well

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on July 11, 2017 at 10:01:40
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 When i replaced the diaphragm in my right Beyma CP25 compression tweeter (diaphragm is an aluminium ring), leaving the left one untouched, the new diaphragm sounded noticeably more harsh and peaky (subjectively louder), shifting the stereo image to the right. it took a couple of days before it started to sound like the left tweeter. They now have the same output and i could swap them without noticing.
When I replaced my old Atlas/klipsch midrange drivers with some brand new JohnAllen A55G, the first hours were quite disappointing and it took about 200hours before they completely opened up, largely surpassing the old Klipsch drivers. The first minutes were actually horrible, they sounded more like siren drivers than the Klipsch/Atlas (actual siren drivers... haha) ever did!

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on July 21, 2017 at 05:16:06
brush001
Audiophile

Posts: 60
Location: ON. Canada
Joined: January 2, 2011
 Don't think it matters as much as placement and how it sounds in a room the final dictator of sound.
You hear a speaker at your friends, the dealers but you get it home and sounds not as magical or may sound better.

 

RE: is speaker break-in real?, posted on July 22, 2017 at 11:34:09
Disbeliever
Audiophile

Posts: 1877
Joined: June 1, 2012
 When I complained to Ken Ishiwata of poor sound at a Hi-Fi Show where he was demonstrating Marantz latest products , he said the new speakers were not yet run in and could take up to six months.

 

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