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Just realized the effect of bass on clarity

74.4.247.113
Posted on April 13, 2017 at 13:28:25
ph5y
Audiophile

Posts: 178
Location: DC
Joined: October 30, 2010
 If a small speaker can't do bass it will do one of two things:
a) pump out a lot of harmonic distortion smearing the midrange
b) attenuate the bass to a point where the music sounds unnatural and midrange timbres are wrong
c) A little of both
Old news I know, and an argument for subwoofers for those who cannot afford good floor-standers or are in love with speakers that can't do bass.

It's never too late to turn back the clock.

 

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RE: Just realized the effect of bass on clarity, posted on April 13, 2017 at 13:46:58
6bq5
Audiophile

Posts: 4385
Location: SF Bay
Joined: August 16, 2001
 Having the right filter to separate the tweeter/mid-range from the bass is also a huge part of the equation- I realize that that is incumbent in your statement - but subs can help speakers that were sold as 'not needing them'...
Happy Listening

 

RE: Just realized the effect of bass on clarity, posted on April 13, 2017 at 16:01:09
nearfielder
Audiophile

Posts: 123
Location: Chicago
Joined: March 27, 2002
 You may be onto something, but it's always about tradeoffs and listening environments. A giant speaker in a small room can sound like shit too.

 

a subwoofer is worthless, posted on April 13, 2017 at 18:23:26
madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Unless the lowest frequencies are filtered from the mains, adding a subwoofer will do nothing to relieve them of trying to produce frequencies of which they are not capable. Surely it will provide additional power and fidelity at the lowest frequencies, but it will not help clarify the overtaxed mains; they will still be pumping out a distorted signal.

If little speakers sound bad when pushed hard, they will still sound bad with a sub added, but the additional bass might mask some of the distortion, or perhaps they can be not pushed so hard. That's the best way to make undersized speakers sound better: turn the volume down and add more speakers such as a sub.

Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: Not Quite ......., posted on April 13, 2017 at 18:33:11
hitsware
Audiophile

Posts: 2635
Location: N. Calif.
Joined: December 30, 2004
 The sub will make the overall
sound subjectively louder.
Therefore less power will be sent
to the main helping lower distortion .

 

Agreed, posted on April 13, 2017 at 18:59:32
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 Even small speakers properly integrated, eg no overlapping frequency response between speaker and sub, will sound good.

The the big trick is not adding too much sub and too much volume on the sub. With subs always remember "less IS more".

 

RE: Not Quite ......., posted on April 14, 2017 at 08:01:40
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 There is a coupling effect subs do cause - in a good way. That's why many use sub in stereo as opposed to single.

 

"Unless the lowest frequencies are filtered from the mains...", posted on April 14, 2017 at 08:14:42
Mr. Dick Hertz
 Why add a sub if you're not going to incorporate a crossover to do just that?

 

Yikes, posted on April 14, 2017 at 08:18:17
Inmate51
 "to separate the tweeter/mid-range from the base is also a huge part of the equation- "

"Manufacturer"? I just looked at your website, and have to say that, if you're to be taken seriously, you at least need to learn how to spell "bass". Otherwise, it's as if you've never had even the most elementary education in sound or music.

And don't blame it on type-ahead or auto-correct.

:)

 

My experience, posted on April 14, 2017 at 08:19:34
Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1884
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
  Since: December 14, 2012
 I've done a couple sub setups. Both used a VTL Deluxe preamp that has two sets of independent outputs (cathode follower to the mains, and 12AU7 buffered to the sub) and an old ACI Titan II LE powered sub.

1. Spica TC-50
For this, I put a series cap in the unbuffered output for a 6 dB/octave high-pass filter at 80 Hz. Integrating with the sub was pretty much seamless and very musical. To dial it in, I'd listen to the Spicas alone for a while, then turn the sub on and see if they lost any of opening/imaging/naturalness. If they did, the sub was too loud. I also used the old R/S SPL meter, with its well known bass rolloff, to double-check. If I got a measured flat response, that suggested I was at least not "sub heavy." Less is always more with subs.

2. Tannoy Stirling GR
The Tannoys are good to somewhere in the mid-40's (down 6dB at 39 Hz) so I did away with the series cap in the preamp, and set the sub for 12 dB/octave at 45 Hz. With this, the sub rarely puts out anything at all; I've been surprised at how little material there is down there. When there is material for it, such as "Turn Me On" from Nora Jones' "Come Away With Me" SACD, it adds a touch of the bottom end that the Tannoys miss. For the rest of that recording, the sub does nothing. As the Tannoys are extremely fast and airy, and have the best imaging I've ever heard, anything that impinges on that is a mortal sin. With almost all recordings, even played very loud, the sub does nothing.

For me, it's a matter of extending the range *if* it can be done without degrading the mains. With the Tannoys, there is almost no overlap, but for the Spicas, with their 6 dB/octave rolloff, there was quite a bit. (If "no overlap" is a requirement, then no sealed main speaker can ever be integrated with a sub.)

What we're doing when integrating subs is not much different from what a full-range speaker designer does - we're both using an LCR circuit to give a high-pass to the tweeter, and low-pass to the woofer. But, as we are adding an *additional* LCR circuit, plus power amp and driver, it's a matter of deciding if the additional stuff adds to the experience, or detracts from it. My best advice is to try it, live with it for a long time, and periodically check back with the sub turned off to see whether the it actually helps, or adds anything unwanted.

YMMV

WW


"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

RE: Just realized the effect of bass on clarity, posted on April 14, 2017 at 08:45:48
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3364
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 "A giant speaker in a small room can sound like shit too."
Yep, been there, done that and couldn't agree more.

 

+1...works for me too., posted on April 14, 2017 at 08:48:10
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3364
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 NT

 

RE: Yikes, posted on April 14, 2017 at 09:10:49
6bq5
Audiophile

Posts: 4385
Location: SF Bay
Joined: August 16, 2001
 Thank you for noticing.
Happy Listening

 

Worthless - hardly, Less than Optimal - clearly, posted on April 14, 2017 at 14:39:46
Edp
Audiophile

Posts: 4499
Joined: September 23, 1999
 Worthless is too strong of word, less than optimal seems more true to the reality.

Anybody whos had a speaker like a Spice tc50 or even the little NHT zero, and simply added a subwoofer, rarely would say the result was worthless.


One of the earliest and still to this day a fine implementation of sub/mains was the JBL L212. The whole system did not "filter the mains", it simply used the sealed alignment with a fairly amazing 8 inch driver that resulted in a F3 of 70 hz. There was no electrical filtering or subsonic filter to that unit and it still moved to signals below 70hz.

Would it have been even more optimal with filter, sure, but was it "required or worthless", nope.

I know where you are going with the statement "worthless", but that is too black/white based upon decades of usage and overall performance gains in adding a subwoofer to bass shy main speakers.

One of the concerns many have is "the filter of the mains", means there is another set of components that the signal goes through, and some of the worst "filter of mains" is simply a big ol cheap Electrolytic cap that all of the frequencies go through and you get to hear that for every note, not just bass range. In that case , people are better off with "unfiltered mains".

 

Distortion is a function of volume level, posted on April 14, 2017 at 15:29:19
Dave_K
 A typical two-way high end stand mounted speaker has low distortion in the bass at playback levels up to 85-90 dB average. If that's enough for your listening habits, no problem. You can add a sub or two if you want the bottom octave. But if you want to bang heads at 100 dB average, bigger speakers are the way to go.

 

RE: Just realized the effect of bass on clarity, posted on April 14, 2017 at 16:01:08
Kingshead
Audiophile

Posts: 574
Location: Florida
Joined: September 14, 2016



Sub sat with an integral active crossover allowing the user to both variably time align the sub to the sats, but also allows adjustment to both the low and high pass settings. Brought to you by the genius of Arnie Nudell almost three decades ago, the Infinity Modulus System, frequency response +/- 2db 22hz - 45khz.

Powered by a pair of Belles Model I amps biamping the sats they really are something special.

 

Why would anybody add a sub-woofer and not..., posted on April 14, 2017 at 17:26:40
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 filter the low frequencies out of the mains?

That would be, IMO, silly.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Why would anybody add a sub-woofer and not..., posted on April 14, 2017 at 20:23:56
RandHat
Audiophile

Posts: 94
Joined: December 18, 2003
 I did this with a REL sub for many years and with four different brands/models of monitor speakers. It really did work quite well. I now have a pair of speakers (Vandersteen Quatro CT) that employs a completely different (opposite) approach than does REL. While I do think the Vandersteen method of filtering to optimize the performance range of the power amp and mid range drivers is a more elegant solution and as much as I enjoy these speakers, comparing to my most recent setup with the REL sub I can't say there is a night and day difference. Clearly the Vandersteen is the better system and his use of filtering with his powered subs no doubt contributes to the overall improvement in sound, my REL got a lot right most of the time and the unfiltered monitors in my other systems created a very enjoyable sound.

 

Depends on the main speakers, posted on April 15, 2017 at 07:28:15
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
 Aerial 3-way LR5 with 2, 9-inch bass drivers per speaker rolls off below about 40 Hz so two subs can be adjusted to overlap in the roll-off area and fill-in below. The sealed box will provide superior bass definition compared to a bass reflex design, in most cases. The Aerials are designed to take the power and do not distort in the low frequencies, they just roll-off before the lowest frequencies, so not sure a filter would sound better in that situation.

BTW, are you suggesting using the cross-overs commonly found on the better subs, or something else. Is there a high-pass filter you recommend that doesn't to too much harm to the signal?

 

RE: Depends on the main speakers, posted on April 15, 2017 at 07:41:37
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "The Aerials are designed to take the power and do not distort in the low frequencies, they just roll-off before the lowest frequencies, so not sure a filter would sound better in that situation."

OK, but what abut the amp?

"Is there a high-pass filter you recommend that doesn't to too much harm to the signal?"

A simple cap will keep the extreme low bass out of the amp driving the mains and I contend that that, in and of itself, will make an audible improvement.


Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: a subwoofer is worthless, posted on April 15, 2017 at 08:55:52
Inmate51
 "Unless the lowest frequencies are filtered from the mains, adding a subwoofer will do nothing to relieve them of trying to produce frequencies of which they are not capable."

10-4 on that!

 

RE: Depends on the main speakers, posted on April 15, 2017 at 09:14:53
Inmate51
 You are absolutely correct.

Low frequencies are a huge amplifier current draw. Whenever we can take that load off the mains amp, things get better.

And, to an earlier point, filtering out the low frequencies from a mains "woofer" which isn't up to the task, allows that driver to perform better (more linearly) in its "good" range.

This isn't rocket science: Who here would even consider having a tweeter try to reproduce 300 Hz?!

:)

 

RE: Depends on the main speakers, posted on April 15, 2017 at 10:25:25
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
 Ok, I appreciate the knowledge and responses (thanks) but to help me understand, are you guys talking about an in-line filter on the amplifier input, or something between the amp and the speaker? Are these available commercially, or am I better off constructing it myself.
The amps are beasts (Class A monos at 300/600 wpc into 8/4 ohms) but this is a new set-up for me (compared to running full-range speakers) so I am interested in anything that will further improve the bass.

 

RE: Worthless - hardly, Less than Optimal - clearly, posted on April 15, 2017 at 11:44:10
RandHat
Audiophile

Posts: 94
Joined: December 18, 2003
 I agree. It is short sighted in my opinion to make blanket statements about the best way to implement a sub into your system. I've been using them for the past 20 years and some implementations work better than others. It is possible with both filtered and unfiltered implementations to obtain good and not so good results. Both REL and Vandersteen though at opposite ends of the spectrum have optimized their products to best utilize their respective design philosophy. I would rather have a well implemented "filterless" system like the REL than a poorly implemented filtered system.

 

RE: Depends on the main speakers, posted on April 15, 2017 at 11:55:01
Kingshead
Audiophile

Posts: 574
Location: Florida
Joined: September 14, 2016






This is the ECU for the Infinity sub, notice the variable phase control, and the rear mounted dip switches for the high pass filter, it's connected between the preamp and power amp. Just a few of the features that make this servo sub so musical and easy to integrate.

 

RE: Just realized the effect of bass on clarity, posted on April 15, 2017 at 14:02:45
ph5y
Audiophile

Posts: 178
Location: DC
Joined: October 30, 2010
 Nice rig. Infinity was always a leader. Back in the late 70s I heard an infinity tower speaker. Bass was meh, but the extension of the highs was in a league of its own. The KEFs and Brit mini-monitors couldn't match it. Unfortunately before I could get rich enough to buy a pair my hearing had declined to where I no longer noticed the difference. ):



It's never too late to turn back the clock.

 

Obviously correct! But your headline is click-bait!, posted on April 15, 2017 at 14:06:18
ph5y
Audiophile

Posts: 178
Location: DC
Joined: October 30, 2010
 You've been watching too may youtube videos.

WWIII BEGINS ... if US and Russia don't reach accord says professor.


Just giving you a hard time. Best wishes.
It's never too late to turn back the clock.

 

RE: Yikes, posted on April 15, 2017 at 14:08:26
ph5y
Audiophile

Posts: 178
Location: DC
Joined: October 30, 2010
 People make that kind of typo all the time, including PhDs. Don't be so judgmental. Or were you joking?
It's never too late to turn back the clock.

 

What I meant to say is, posted on April 15, 2017 at 14:11:38
ph5y
Audiophile

Posts: 178
Location: DC
Joined: October 30, 2010
 What I meant to say is, if your sats can't do bass you need to add a sub with a CROSSOVER to relieve the woofer in the sat of having to reproduce those frequencies at levels where harmonic distortion is significant.
It's never too late to turn back the clock.

 

90 db at a lower frequency is not that loud, posted on April 15, 2017 at 14:20:29
ph5y
Audiophile

Posts: 178
Location: DC
Joined: October 30, 2010
 Something I read that surprised me is that while 90 db in the midrange sounds very loud, 90db from a low organ note does not sound that loud. So it may be that stand-mounts are being asked to reproduce more bass than they can handle even at 'reasonable' listening levels on orchestral works for example. Fundamentals below 40 hz are fairly common. What is the harmonic distortion of a good standmount at 38 hz at 90db? I don't think Stereophile measures this stuff, probably to protect their advertisers.
It's never too late to turn back the clock.

 

RE: 90 db at a lower frequency is not that loud, posted on April 15, 2017 at 15:33:57
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4306
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 That's because the ear is less sensitive at low frequencies unless the level is very high. Off the top of my head our ears are flat at low frequencies around 100 dB. Look up Fletcher/Munson affect on Google.

 

RE: Depends on the main speakers, posted on April 15, 2017 at 15:38:23
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4306
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 You still take a load off the speakers and amp with a hi pass filter on the main speakers which will reduce the excursion of the woofers and make their contribution cleaner. Besides I'd roll off higher, say 60 to 80 Hz. A wave length is still so long it's not that difficult to integrate a sub and speaker if the crossover is well designed(which unfortunately usually means designed as a one off for that combination).

 

something between the main amp and the main speakers, posted on April 15, 2017 at 19:30:05
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 to keep the low bass out of the main amp and therefore out of the main speakers.

As a purest, I can't take a line stage crossover in line with the mids and highs but just a high quality cap does wonders.

The filter slope is shallow (only 6db per octave) but it really helps a lot.

I built a 12db per octave Sullen-Key OpAmp based low pass filter to go between the woofer amp and the JBL 2231s (no where near as harmful to low frequencies) but just use one cap per channel as a high pass filter to keep the low bass out of the main amp.


Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

where can I find more specific calculations?, posted on April 16, 2017 at 06:30:43
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
 Ok, so two options, a capacitor between amp and speakers (to augment the existing crossovers?) or a more active approach between the preamp and the amp as shown in Kingshead's post below.

Like you Tre', I would prefer not having anything in the path with the mid/high frequencies. I am however interested in the approach of placing a capacitor between the main amp and speaker that will only affect the low frequencies in my bi-wired set-up. Are you are talking about a capacitor placed between the pos and neg terminals (sort of like a zobel network without the resistor), or in-line capacitors? Additional LR5 measurement information and specifications are provided in the linked review.

The manufacturer's specs indicate the frequency response of my LR5s is 40Hz-22kHz, +/-2dB and, from the measurement graph below, it appears the low frequencies begin to drop off at about 60Hz. Even with this limited frequency response, the speakers are relatively inefficient at 86dB/2.83V/m, probably due in-part to the sealed box design.

Could you direct me to where I could find more specific guidelines to the placement and appropriate value of the capacitor you recommend?




 

So, could I use this?, posted on April 16, 2017 at 07:57:46
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
 80Hz at 4 ohms high pass filter. I assume I could wire this directly in line with (only) the LF binding posts and perhaps place it inside the speakers just after the binding posts.

What does the coil do?

If I wanted to reduce the high pass frequency to something like 40 or 60Hz at 4 ohms, could I simply increase the capacitor size or would I need to do something with the coil too? I could use a higher quality cap if that would make a difference since everything from the high pass frequency to the speaker's crossover at 360 Hz will pass through the filter. The specified 250 wpc limit for the filter is only half what the mfg specifies for the speakers so could I increase this with a higher quality capacitor or would the coil need to be different? The schematic is available from linked website.

Thanks for any help.

 

I mis-spoke, I meant a cap between the preamp and the main amp., posted on April 16, 2017 at 08:10:27
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 A cap between the main amp and the main speakers will not help the main amp and a cap that big won't sound good.

A cap between the preamp and the main amp would be a small, high quality film cap and it would help both the amp and the speaker.

Sorry for creating confusion.


Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: where can I find more specific calculations?, posted on April 16, 2017 at 10:44:17
Kingshead
Audiophile

Posts: 574
Location: Florida
Joined: September 14, 2016



The thing is, that ECU was designed by the manufacturer to work with the Modulus setup, but I'm sure the Modulus sub and its partnering control unit would work great with just about any speaker.

I have other subs though, and although nowhere in the same league (at 8% of the cost of the modulus sub) the setup I've settled on works very well. It's only in direct comparison to the Infinity that you realize they are what they are.

Pictured are a pair of inexpensive Dayton sub1200's being used as speaker stands. Setting them up this way in stereo their sum is greater than the parts would imply. Instead of sounding like a great pair of speakers with a killer sub, the presentation is more akin to Heresys on steroids, THEY JUST SOUND BIGGER.

Does this imply the Modulus system would be improved with a second sub? All I can say is Heeeeeeelllllllll yaaaaaaaaaaaa.

 

RE: Just realized the effect of bass on clarity, posted on April 20, 2017 at 07:41:49
Bob Neill
Dealer

Posts: 2953
Location: New England
Joined: October 1, 1999
 What you need is a stand that uses the Helmholtz resonator principle. Can clean up both bass and midrange.

 

RE: Just realized the effect of bass on clarity, posted on April 20, 2017 at 10:32:04
Kingshead
Audiophile

Posts: 574
Location: Florida
Joined: September 14, 2016
 All that's been said on the importance of a high pass filter when employing a sub comes down to one thing, how it sounds to you. Even though the Modulus system was designed with this feature, I still find it's best when not employing this option. I've owned the system from new in 1991, it's been used with Carver, Kenwood, McIntosh, Dynaco, Pioneer, and most recently a pair of Belles Model I amps.

Originally beginning with a Carver amp I used the high pass set at 120hz, this worked great with 350 watts / channel on tap, very holographic. But later moving to the Mac amp I found it just sounded that much better with less electronics in the signal path, feeding the amps directly from the preamp. Sure it wouldn't handle as much power, but these little beasties can take some serious juice and play quite loud full range anyway.

Over the yrs I've tried both setups when changing amps, but have always preferred the sound signal uninterrupted from pre to power for the mains, even with the ability to choose where the high pass is set.

Martin

 

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