Sonus faber Amati Homage Gallery

Re: Sonus faber Amati Homage Gallery, posted on March 7, 1999 at 10:37:03
Bryan F.	~~~Nice pictures and I may add some crude tools are used in making the enclosures!

Re: Sonus faber Amati Homage Gallery, posted on March 7, 1999 at 10:54:33
Hyperion	Yep, the cheaper Sonus faber enclosures are made with aid from computer controlled CNC machines but the two made-to-order limited edition speakers: the Guarneri and the Amati Homage are entirely hand made. That is what makes em so expensive.

Re: Sonus faber Amati Homage Gallery, posted on March 7, 1999 at 11:53:25

Bryan F.

~~~I have only auditioned from the Electa Amator II and down(gotta love the Conterto as it really defies price at it's pricepoint) however I have heard that the Amator is their best speaker. Even hearing from a few sources that the Amati and especially Guarneri are a little dissapointing though flawless workmanship. I ended up buying the Merlin VSM SE over the Electa Amator II. Very different speakers with the Merlins loving low powered set's(no problem with 25 watts controlling the 18W/854506 yet being able to go low). Not to mention they implemented the Esotar perfectly unlike companies like Eggleston that are implementing the Esotar in some of the worse applications I have ever heard...spell out ouch for harshness! Thanks for the link...gotta love high resolution pictures also!

Re: Sonus faber Amati Homage Gallery, posted on March 7, 1999 at 13:33:45
Oakroot	Great pics Hyper - thanks!

Re: Sonus faber Amati Homage Gallery, posted on March 7, 1999 at 15:21:14
Steve	I loved the pictures. They're featured in the March '99 issue of HFNRR and make a beautiful cover photo in Japan's Stereo Sound (issue 129, Winter '99).

Re: Sonus faber Amati Homage Gallery, posted on March 7, 1999 at 16:29:53

Clayton Oxendine

I hate you did this. Now my many hour handcrafted cabinets look like crap to me. Notice the one picture when the guy is sanding down the finish. Notice all the dust clinging to everything. That is what kind of stuff I have to clean up everytime I have build some cabinets. Actually my finish on my Dynaudio's were fashioned after the,(I forget which one), SF that has the leather finish. I did this with paint, could not afford real leather. These pictures show you why SF's are so exspensive and worth it. You can't beat handcrafted cabinets. These are really a work of art. The bracing is very impressive also. Notice how the shelf braces are staggered in distance to keep the box resonances at different frequencies. I wish I knew what kind of resin they used to enclose the xo. Also the curved cabinets keep diffraction to a minimal. How much are these beauties?

Clayton

Give it a rest, posted on March 7, 1999 at 16:32:47

DiabloET

I think you're an idiot. But you are right about the Merlin's superiority over every Sonus Faber ever made. Nigel is looking over my shoulder as I'm writing this (I'm visiting his Connecticut digs and he's got a system that makes all this Sonus Faber crap sound like the crap it is) so I suppose I shouldn't get too vile. But pretty pictures do not a good speaker make.

Oh yeah BF, while your speakers are certainly better than SF's, don't expect them to reproduce anything in the way macro dynamic swings. Those little drivers are fine for jazz and chamber but little else.

You guys are all about hi-fi. That's not what music reproduction is all about. Accurate music reproduction, anyway. Nigel's getting pissed. Gotta go!

verband met het vele fotomateriaal, posted on March 7, 1999 at 16:41:14

Rod M

Sure took a while to load, but wonderful pics, absolutely gorgeous! Now you've got me wanting to go find some to listen to ;)

BTW: Is that header German or what?

Give what a rest?, posted on March 7, 1999 at 17:00:26
Bryan F.	What are you talking about?

It's dutch. (nt), posted on March 7, 1999 at 18:42:06
Hyperion	.

Re: Give it a rest, posted on March 7, 1999 at 19:31:57

Hyperion

Unfortunately accurate music reproduction will turn 95% of my commercial grade cds to CRAP which is what they really are. You should wage your war on the pro circles, not here. Strike at the root of the evil so to speak. Have em make accurate sounding records first before you try to convince me to have an accurate system. Our poor records sound exactly like hifi when played through accurate systems as it is.

Macrodynamics is an overrated issue. It is not the dynamic peaks that count but the dynamic contrasts, and the ability to come as close to the infinite dynamic levels/shades of real music. The ability to play loud, with extended freq extension, i.e. wide dynamic range does not necessarily result to good dynamic contrast. In fact most big speakers driven by big PP (esp ss ones!) amplifiers suffer from this "VERY coarse & stepped dynamic level" syndrome. There might be wide dynamic swings but the levels are not as varied. Thats why they dont sound like music. Here is where SET design comes out superior to PP design btw, and I am glad Mr. Sushurin knows about it. PP is the superior technology for dynamic peaks but inferior to SE in terms dynamic contrasts.

Besides, you & Nigel ol bud have no patience for LP playback dont ya?, and digital dynamics plain suck compared to analog. I think you would have definitely "sounded" more convincing if you were analog freaks sermoning about dynamics. :-)

Re: Sonus faber Amati Homage Gallery, posted on March 7, 1999 at 19:50:23

Hyperion

In overall balance I am also convinced that the Electa Amator II comes out as a better speaker than the Guarneri, especially because of its significantly stronger bass output, better dynamics and ability to cater to more types of music. Anyway, the finer points of the Guarneri - its gracefulness and inherently ear-friendly characteristics has been built into the EA II as well. I'll have to hear the Amati first before I can say anything about it though.

However, the Guarneri has a higher resolution, better imaging/soundstaging and a more neutral balance compared to the EA 2. In fact you might get surprised but the Guarneri actually sounds more like the Merlin VSM than the EA 2 in terms of tonal balance.

The standard VSM was a very good speaker. So I am sure the VSM SE is even better.

Re: Sonus faber Amati Homage Gallery, posted on March 7, 1999 at 20:34:26

Hyperion

The front baffle of the Amati is also covered with leather, which allegedly makes a fine seal for the drivers once they are bolted into the baffle. Yes, as you have noticed; contrary to the opinion of some that Sonus fabers are merely aesthetic exercises without sonic merit, the speakers are built like works of art but they are evidently anchored into solid engineering foundation.

The Amatis are about $18,000 in the USA, about 11,000 UK sterling pounds in
the UK, and $11,000 or so here. (and about $10,000 in Italy I guess) It's pretty expensive, no doubt about it but I am sure it sounds as good as it looks.

Hey Brian, I've been there., posted on March 7, 1999 at 22:38:48

Dave VH

Diablo ET is very opinionated, and will run over you like a bull in a china shop, as he tried to do with me before. It's his style, and unless you want to get into serious pissing contest, pass on the next volley. He's not a flamer, per se, but he is cantankerous.

He has listened to a lot of good gear, but civil discussion was not his typical style at audioreview.com. It is sometimes possible to have a reasonable discussion with the old devil, but it takes a bit of effort and restraint. I've asked him some questions, and gotten some excellent answers. He does have some interesting knowledge, and a wide range of it, I'll give him credit for that.

;-)

Dave VH

Re: Give what a rest?, posted on March 7, 1999 at 22:43:56
Oakroot	Diablo ET is harmless - you'd be cantankerous to if had to spend so much time with your head in the infernal region.

Re: Give it a rest, posted on March 7, 1999 at 22:57:00
Oakroot	I see your head is still stuck in your infernal region - I can understand where the "crappy" attitude comes from. Could it be that I am giving you too much credit to expect a rational and intelligent comment out of you before it "freezes over" in your neighborhood? Probably, but hope springs eternal. Welcome to the board. :-)

Excellent comment!!, posted on March 8, 1999 at 06:19:29
Deon C	I think you've said it better than I could, Dave. He can be very diifcult, but as you said, use restraint and ask a frank and honest question, and you'll get an excellent answer. His aptience is a short as his knowledge is long :-) But then again, that's what I like about the dude. You always know exactly where you stand with him. Enjoy the music. Deon

Re: verband met het vele fotomateriaal, posted on March 8, 1999 at 06:25:19
Deon C	Hyper's right, it is dutch. That is the language my home language(afrikaans) stems from. Directly tranlated, it says:'Pertaining to all that/those photomaterial/photographs'. Well, more or less. Enjoy the music. Deon

Re: Give it a rest, posted on March 8, 1999 at 06:46:29
Jack G	Want dynamics, macro and micro? Realistic sound? Get yourself an SET(a REAL one, not one of those 20-50 watt jobies) and some horn loaded speakers such as Avantgaurd, Odeon, Galante etc..Anything else is just Hifi sounding. Jack

Re: >>Get yourself an SET<<, posted on March 8, 1999 at 07:11:36

Deon C

I see you seem not to like the higher powered SETs. Is there any specific reason? Is it just those with multiple, parallel tubes. IOW would a mono-block with a single 212E in the output, giving 50W SE also be less than good. Is it maybe that the higher powered SETs, like their high-powered SS brethren, suffer from large (slow) power-supplies? I have heard that they say that the 2A3 is much faster than the 300B, but I've always wondered if it is not more down to circuit design etc. than the tube itself. Or am I missing the boat completely? :-)
Enjoy the music.
Deon

Re: >>Get yourself an SET(a REAL one, not one of those 20-50 watt jobbies)<<, posted on March 8, 1999 at 07:12:28

Deon C

I see you seem not to like the higher powered SETs. Is there any specific reason? Is it just those with multiple, parallel tubes. IOW would a mono-block with a single 212E in the output, giving 50W SE also be less than good. Is it maybe that the higher powered SETs, like their high-powered SS brethren, suffer from large (slow) power-supplies? I have heard that they say that the 2A3 is much faster than the 300B, but I've always wondered if it is not more down to circuit design etc. than the tube itself. Or am I missing the boat completely? :-)
Enjoy the music.
Deon

Re: >>Get yourself an SET<<, posted on March 8, 1999 at 07:33:38

JAck G

From my limited experience, they seem to lack the subtlty of lower powered SETs. Parrallel tubes adds to complexity, rarely a good thing, even if you can keep them working equaly. The higher powered triodes,as a rule(and there are always exceptions) like 211s 845s, have better bass and slam, but thats not why I like SEts to start with. The lower powered tubes have better mids and are more delicate and organic sounding(like life). The advantage of the more powerfull tubes is they'll drive more speakers, but eventually high-end will get around to doing more horns-even HP of TAS is suddenly realizing the advantages of horns over in effecient speakers. Of course, he's suddenly discovered dynamics and immediacy.*rolling eyes*.
Jack

Re: Give it a rest, posted on March 8, 1999 at 07:54:25

DiabloET

I can't disagree with you. I will point out however that there's more than one way to skin a cat. Your contention has merit. But the trouble with so many horns I've heard is that they sacrifice timbral accuracy at the alter of realistic dynamic portrayal. Going the other way has its problems too. A super dynamic push pull amp hooked up to dynamically capable reproducers often lose something in the way of timbral subtlety and dynamic shading.
The main problem that I have with the SET school of thinking is the phase anamolies often introduced by this sort of amplification. If you totally screw phase relationships up coming out of an amp, what chance to you have of reproducing the live event in your living room? Precious little, I'd say.

Looks like a DIY workshop, posted on March 8, 1999 at 09:30:24

Edp

Looks like same setups used to make butcher block counters, but might be difficult to cut on those curved surfaces!

I got the biggest chuckle out of the xover board, I feel better about my layouts now, looks like stuff us DIY'ers do all the time, (except we might try to get the components farther apart!).

Might make the ability to "tweak" or "upgrade" somewhat difficult with that six kilo resin!

Fine work and great photos, thanks for the post. I only wish that my encounter with them was more memorable, but not doubt the setup had a great deal to do with it.

low and HIGH POWER set's!, posted on March 8, 1999 at 10:20:29

Bryan F.

~~~Low power, high power? Where does one make a stand? Hard decision I must state. As for the most part I am a believer that the higher the power the lower the refinement and the lower the power the higher the refinement. But am I sure about this....yes for the most part however there are exceptions. I will also state that I have yet to find a SET that is over 26 watts that I like more than a pp at this point. As when power starts climbing for set's. PP's start getting the edge.
~~~Low powered set's sound less forced and have a purity about them that leaves me speechless. For instance the Cary CAD300-SE signatures are much much more musical than that of the 805C's that IMHO were a real dissapointment. They lacked the refinement of their little brothers. With an extremly rolled off bottom end and week treble extension. Not that the 300Sigs are known for good extension on both ends but none the less from top to bottom the 300Sigs excel over the 805C'c. The 300Sigs also offer a much higher musicallity level, much more lush midrange, and a more of a feeling of being there. So in this case more power looses to less and more refinement is more welcome. There are many more examples like this.
~~~Now some of the best SET's that I have heard are limited to the power output of the WE300B or 300B in general. Actually though the lower the power rating the better the sound in almost all my experiances with the 300B. Notice that I keep saying in regards to the 300B. As the 2A3 offers even more refinement and a better bottom end and from only 3 watts. However the price to be paid is that you only have 3 watts to work with. Though if you are willing you may just be very happy with a 2A3. As refinement is high and yet 2A3's cost less than that of 300B's(both amplifier and tube wise depending). A lot less.
~~~Ok now that I have rambled on what are the exceptions? Well for instance I never really liked any 845 tube based amplifiers as I think that other tubes have an edge. Though the 845 is capable of power. For instance the bigger Bel Cantos don't even compare to the smaller ones. With the smaller lower powered ones being champs. However no room for comparisons here. And when it comes to set's you might as well go for the edge of lower power and find higher effecient speakers. However the price to be paid for is power. Power Power Power! But this is what I was trying to say there are a few exceptions. For instance the Wytech Labs Topaz. It offers 18 watts of se power using two 4 pin base 211 VT-4C large triodes. It is very different in that it has well extended lows and highs yet offers refinement that makes one think.......this is an set but is it. As it is not rolled off on the bottom or top end, offers a good power output, and is still refined offering a gorgeous midrange. It actually makes you think is there a better amplifier out there wether ss, set, OTL, or PP. It is that good but is also $11,000.
~~~Another exception is the Onaku but I have never auditioned this baby. But it is suppose to be the end all of amplifiers. And it offers 26 watts. Another exception may be either the Wavelegnth KIR or Triton. Others I really need to audition. Now there are other tubes that are becomming popular that still offer 80-90%(depending on design and parts quality) of the midrange of a WE300B yet offer a higher power output, very high dynamic levels, with good treble extension and excellent bass extension. These are of course the KR tubes. The 300BXLS and VV52BX. If you are a 300B fan you may be dissappointed if you can use the 300BXLS as a direct replacement as it isn't always a direct replacement. And doesn't offer the same midrange. A tad more neutral and from top to bottom. No these babies aren't dark from my experiances. As I am using the VV52BX and I am astonished but I have to admit that it isn't the same as a 300B based amplifier(in respects to midrange but betters cheaper 300B tubes my comparison is based on the WE300B for the most part). Though it does retain the se magic, refinement and offers more power(25 watts in my application), better dynamics, and better bass. Overall it is very well balanced but still not as lush in the midrange as some of the better 300B's but it is still lush more on this later though.
~~~In conclusion the lower the power the higher the refinement. However there are some exceptions like that of the Wyetech and the likes. However there are also new breeds being introduced that offer a tad more power.(not over 26 watts though with 32 being the limits) Due to KR Enterprises. Though there are tradeoffs for both. Where one wants to be is up to them. I know I am leaving a lot of information out however this is a rather legnthy topic.

Re: Give it a rest, posted on March 8, 1999 at 10:53:24
Jack G	I agree with your comment about horns-They can be done well, but its not easy of cheap to do so(or visually pleasing). People need to work on it, it is possible to minimize the colorations. As far as phase anomolies with SETs, that too can be dealt with.Some are better than others in regard to phase problems. Jack

Re: low and HIGH POWER set's!, posted on March 8, 1999 at 11:00:07
Jack G	Just for the record, while the KIR is relatively high powered(20watts?), and uses Viac's VV52B. The triton is NOT, being10-12W for regular(300B), less for the signature versions-2A3s are5-6 watts regardless. Jack

It all depends as the Triton..., posted on March 8, 1999 at 11:18:42

Bryan F.

.....is capable of 4-24 watts according to their website. Below is the information which I cut and paisted. It is a very interesting amplifier. Many many mouth watering options.

Below is from Wavelegnths website:

The Triton is going to be an interesting and much talked about product. That is because it comes in so many configurations. The Triton is available in a 2A3 and 300B configurations and also a standard and signature additon. In the signature edition the amplifier uses the same output transformer that is used in the Cardinal XS. Though the Triton-300B signature only yields 12.5W's, the standard edition is capable of 24W's. The Triton-2A3 has between 4-6W's of power in either configuration. The differences in
parts and topology make this an amplifier that can yield the best sonics and power available from a single 300B/2A3 with interstage coupling as in the KIR.

I stand corrected(nt), posted on March 8, 1999 at 11:22:14
Jack G	Ã’Â¿Ã’

Do they fight over whose music to play all day?, posted on March 8, 1999 at 23:57:20

Paul Willie

It happens where I work.

While working alone, music is great. Another person walks in and they want to change the CD. Or turn it down "...JUST A LITTLE BIT."

PW

you look marvelous, posted on March 9, 1999 at 14:53:39
dy/dx	after seeing the latest cover of Stereophile, it's nice to know some people (not in the USA apparently) still know that looking good is feeling good.

Re: I wish I knew what kind of resin they used to enclose the xo, posted on March 10, 1999 at 13:31:37

spook

Re: I wish I knew what kind of resin they used to enclose the xo

with all due ( and overdue ) respect -

Why ? Might it make a difference sonically ?
Do you have problems with any spooge you've used ?

we're you being impertinent ?

do you want me to tell you what kind of resin it is ?

Re: I wish I knew what kind of resin they used to enclose the xo, posted on March 10, 1999 at 20:02:40

Clayton Oxendine

Actually it had nothing to do with the xo but wondering how this would work to enclose underground coax wire and to enclose outside BNC connector's. I am a DIY speaker builder and would not enclose the xo in it for the simple fact of never being able to get at the components again. As to sealing the things I have mentioned above I have tried many things, (best so far is coax sealent tape sold at RS) and it is only marginal good. The product needs to be non conductant, which leaves silicone out. Now as to the opinion to whether it would sonically make a difference, I would not rule it out until I heard it. I have an open mind, do you?

Clayton

Re: I wish I knew what kind of resin they used to enclose the xo, posted on March 10, 1999 at 21:45:34

spook

I'm not familiar with or experienced with coax sealing (forgive me, I'm learning)

"...enclosing underground coax wire" ? I'm going to assume you're trying to hermetically seal (ideally) a junction - yes ?

It sounds as though you're willing to permanently encapsulate the junction ?
The resins used are normally non-re-enterable.

There ARE products that will seal out moisture AND be re-enterable
We usually refer to these as "gorilla snot".
A couple that come to mind happen to be clear - with sort of the consistency of really firm gelatin.
If need be, you can tear it away and re-work your joints.
This stuff is often used in automotive modules to protect hybrid circuits - it really works well - the corrosion problem with conductors is much worse under the hood than underground.

BUT - here's where I'm stumped - I'm not familiar with RS coax sealant tape, but I would casually recommend the self-fusing silicone tape available from many sources - including RS. The problem with that stuff is the interface between the silicone tape and the cable is vulnerable still - wrap it tightly for best results.

What I don't get is that you exclude silicone because you need non-conductant. Hmmmm, I usually consider silicone to be an excellent insulator - but maybe there's something I'm missing?
Okay, it's not teflon, but it's got a damn high surface and bulk resistance....

I don't mean to put words in your mouth but maybe you meant "non-corrosive", since most retail silicone RTV is corrosive to copper?
If that's the case, there are silicone RTV sealants (RTV3145 for example) that are specifically for electronics, that don't outgas acetic acid.
But I wouldn't recommend silicone RTV because it's not moisture-proof.

Even though countless fish aquariums tell a different story, GE, Emerson Cummings, or Dow Corning do not offer a single RTV product for continous exposure to water. Although water is generally repelled, moisture (vapor) is not, and moisture will kill your connector.

BTW - I am always cautiously open-minded, and I wasn't meaning to challenge the possibility that encapsulating the XO would make a sonic difference, just asking if it was an established conclusion?
Actually, I can reason that it could be sonically effective, though I would still be skeptical ( yet open-minded )that the specific encapsulant would make MUCH difference. But who knows ?
Anyway - I'm not trying to be an antagonist or anything like that (this time =^)

Speaker Asylum

Sonus faber Amati Homage Gallery

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