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re: good SET amps

161.184.46.138
Posted on April 17, 2000 at 22:52:14
Moray James Campbell


 
My experience with SET's is limited but I know emotion when I feel It, try Steve Deckert's ZEN amp , one cap and two resistors in the signal path , thirteen solder joints. Five watts stereo , amazing. $420.oo US inkit and $500.00 factory built. Go to www.decware.com you won't want to miss this site.

 

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Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 18, 2000 at 08:47:47
dawg


 
No, it should be like this:

(1) underoptimized 6N1P driving triode-strapped SV83 into a superficially high primary impedance load (to lower distortion). As a result you get about 1Watts worth of glorious music. Fit and Finish is so-so (it uses Hammond Chassis) and the opts are nothing fancy.

God for heaven's sake go get yourself a REAL SET!

bow wow!

*No I don't bark at real Harley but those HArely wannabes!

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 18, 2000 at 11:18:00
joe


 
Puts out 1.9 watts RMS according to previous posting.

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 18, 2000 at 17:30:51
samm


 
I have a pair of Zen and enjoy them every minute while listening music. Yes, its power out put is a bit controversial but leave that to 'audio guru' and just enjoy your music. Not a real SET? I do not know and I do not care, but one thing is sure: Zen is better than some of the much expensive "real" SETs though I auditioned handful of them (including 4k) by myself. Enjoy your music. samm

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 19, 2000 at 22:50:06
joe


 
Ah. the sv83 is triode connected. It is a real triode. It has all the curves of a triode. In fact, its distortion specs. can be varied as opposed to that of a 300B triode (which is fixed) with any given voltage. But it is really underpowered.

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 19, 2000 at 22:53:30
joe


 
What do you mean "(1) underoptimized 6N1P driving triode-strapped SV83 into a superficially high primary impedance load (to lower distortion)." You can do the same with any tube; that is decrease or increase the distortion with a change of primary impedance. So what kind of gobley gook is this??

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 20, 2000 at 08:50:18
dawg


 
talk is cheap...go find yourself a Zen amp and do some testing and you'll see what I and many others are talking about.


bow wow!

hint: there's a lot to do with the balance of output power, distortion figure and more.....

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 20, 2000 at 10:09:27
sammm


 
This (my talk) is nothing to do with an amp, but your talk is not sincere if not cheap. If you don't want to talk, do not talk at all. best regards. samm

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 20, 2000 at 11:52:39
Joe


 
Dawg,
Just wanted to mention that choosing the primary impedance isn't "superfically" done to anything. All primary impedances (simplified term) are chosen by a manufacturer, because of distortion products that are produced/changed by variance, setting the damping factor etc. I know what you mean by low power though. I heard it put out 1.9 watts RMS. A page was put up awhile back about the 5 watts was music power. Gobbley gook. Anyway, take care.

 

Re: re: good SET amps- to samm, posted on April 20, 2000 at 11:59:49
dawg


 
Now let's see:

samm> My previous technical post is addressed specifically to joe only and not to you. If you find that offensive or not sincere than I have nothing to say for there is some technical reason behind it and not to the sound...If you are satisfied with the sound then settle down, simply forget about my technical arguments and enjoy the music.

joe> I still encourage you to get yourself a Zen amp and do some testing. If you can answer my quote on that "underoptimized 6N1P driving that triode-strapped SV83 into superficially high primary impedance output transformer" with sufficient technical reasoning then I'll buy it (your reasoning, not Zen amp)...

All da best,

bow wow!

Hint: it's all about driver and load optimization. If you can find ways to give it a perfect match on the primary load side with respect to the secondary loading behavior you will get approximately 2Watts .

 

joe>My stand, posted on April 20, 2000 at 12:58:37
dawg


 
My amendment to you joe:

Knowing that Steve Deckert has those transformer wound by some basement folk and the primary to secondary is set to be optimized for approx. 2 ohms (that's why Steve claimed to be able to drive almost dead short .... well amost!).

Now try to imagine running it with 8 ohms or 16 ohms on the secondary part and you'll see why.

best regards,

dawg

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 20, 2000 at 15:06:00
James W.


 
Okay guys:

I'll throw in a few cents. I quite liked my Zen's had two of them.
I ran them series mono which supposedly gave them a bit more power.
10 watts music power, maybe more.

My Paraglows with 3 of Doc's Watts using Vaic Monoplate 2A3's plays
about 15 to 20% louder with far better dynamics, bass extension and
a far more open detailed sound space. Most importantly they are
far more involving musically and a total blast to listen to. My speakers
(Talonaudio Khorus's)www.talonaudio.com are 91 db efficient
with a load that is nominally 8 ohms. It actually varies from about
6.5 ohm to just over 12 ohms or so.


FWIW,

James W.

 

Re: joe>My stand, posted on April 20, 2000 at 16:41:56
Joe


 
Dear Dawd,
I agree with you totally. It was designed for low impedance speakers. At higher impedances, the damping factor is better, which I guess is what he is after. If I could talk to you personally, on the phone, I could tell you some more stuff, if you get my drift.

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 20, 2000 at 16:45:49
joe


 
Doesn't surprise me. When the output transformer weighs in at about 12 ounces, nah, give it a pound, you can expect no bass, or at best false bass. Also, you need alot of experience as well as knowledge to design one, if you get my drift.

 

Re: re: good SET amps- to samm, posted on April 20, 2000 at 16:49:25
joe


 
Dawd,
Dawd, you missed my point. All impedance matching does is affect the power output and damping factor. He, in his own mind, has somehow elected to go for high damping factor and low power.
Part 2, the 6n1p, I never made a comment on that at all. He probably did since he had no electronics experience or education. (hint, hint)

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 20, 2000 at 18:10:11
samm


 
Sure, you get much better sound with 2A3 than with Zens. Zen mono is still not efficient enough for 91 dB speakers. I had similar speakers like yours and had to sold them because not enough bass. With my current horn, Silverdale, speakers (99dB), Zen is different amp.

 

Re: re: good SET amps- to samm, posted on April 20, 2000 at 18:17:36
samm


 
Sorry dawg, I should not have interupted your discussion with joe. Best regards. samm

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 21, 2000 at 08:57:16
James W.


 
Joe:

The bass really wasn't that bad with the Zen's. I actually preferred
the overall sound with the Zen's in stereo, but it wasn't quite
as dynamic or as solid in the bass.

Funny thing the Paraglow's don't use that large an output trannie.
Parafeed and all of that of course. Around 2" square and somewhat
heavy for the size. They have amazingly good bass.

Other than maximum volume both amps are quite wonderful on The Talon's
it's just that....well the Paraglows smoke the Zen's. I actually
prefer the Zen's to anything else I've owned, other than the Paraglow's.
My previous favourite was a totally rebuilt Rotel 70 watt integrated
(970B I think,it's been a while). Actually that clobbered
most of the big buck amps I played with. (I had acess to AR, Krell, Proceed,
Bryston, Ayre, and a few other odd things I borrowed) Result I liked the
Zen's better than any of those. Just for a bit of perspective. It would
be a hoot to hear some other SET's, but where around here am I oing to
find anybody. Actually I'm going to listen to some TAD horns with some
custom 2A3's at Kevin Brooks place down in Provo in the next few weeks.

That should be educational!!!

James W.

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 21, 2000 at 10:18:05
joe


 
You must live in Utah. I lived in SLC and Logan for about 2 years way back when (dinosaur manure time). Anyway, I would rather have light bass than flabby, excentuated bass. Gotta go.

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 21, 2000 at 11:07:51
Bastus


 
James, Update us here when you listen to the Huge Kevin Brooks horn and amps!!! Give us the BLOW BY BLOW coverage! By the way, ask Kevin if you can here his "Secret or Special 15 watter" amp which I was told was even better than a 2A3(hard to believe something is better than a 2A3). 2A3Mesh+SilverOPT+PermalloyCOre+110dbcompressiondriver= AUDIO NIRVANA!!!!!!! God I Love this Hobby!

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 21, 2000 at 12:45:50
James W.


 
Victor:

I suspect it will be at least a couple of weeks before I can clear
my Saturday schedule. I'll have to find a bye week on my Kid's
Soccer Schedule.

I'll do so once I have a chance to hear them.

I'm definetly looking forward to it. Super Amp Huh. What exactly
is it. I just ordered some Meshplates from Bob. I may have to
wait as long as 4 weeks. His next shipment may already be completely
spoken for.

James W.

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 21, 2000 at 18:13:01
David W


 
Joe,

I don't get your "drift", or your "hint, hint". What are you talking about?

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 21, 2000 at 18:45:53
Jack G


 
>>>When the output transformer weighs in at about 12 ounces, nah, give it a pound, you can expect no bass, or at best false bass. <<<

I don't think so. I've had 2A3 amps with small output trannys, that had very good bass.
Perhaps you could give us some examples of SETs with small output trannys that you've heard, and spare us the Cary bashing. Are you speaking from experience?

>>>, if you get my drift.<<<
yea, you drift alot, but I dont think you've heard very much equipement, especially SETs.
Jack

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 22, 2000 at 20:20:58
joe


 
The output transformers need a certain amount of iron or inductance from windings to keep the distortion down. If either of these are not met, distortion will increase dramatically. I have personal knowledge about the amp. we are speaking of.

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 22, 2000 at 20:23:02
joe


 
Can't tell you more, cause be in print. Just keep thinking about it and it will come.

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 22, 2000 at 20:25:52
joe


 
Maybe I am being critical, and I am a perfectionist which may or may not be bad. I am use to extremely accurate sonics and hate emphasising
mids or highs or bass.
Just a suggestion, but the Radiotron Designers handbook comments on a phenominon called false bass. It is very interesting.

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 22, 2000 at 22:28:31
Dave


 
Hey James
I've got the Welborne Apollo I here in Highland. A winner.
Later
Dave

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 22, 2000 at 23:45:07
David W


 
There's nothing wrong with valid criticism, but perhaps you could restrict your comments to the qualities of the equipment, and leave the vague insults directed at the designer out of it?

 

SO Uwe, self promotion ay?, posted on April 25, 2000 at 13:34:00
Sans Nom


 
Moderators> unless this fella got your clearance for putting commercials on this board otherwise it's gonna be just like your usual spam stuff....

Time to cleanup this board....

Jacques.

 

Thanks :-) (nt), posted on April 25, 2000 at 16:10:08
Jack G


 
.

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 26, 2000 at 09:14:54
joe


 
Dear Jack,
By your last comment you obviously don't know too much about designing or distortion etc. 12 oz. output transformers are not going to give deep bass with low distortion, period. If you have, or can get ahold of a distortion analyzer check it out. False bass was know as far back as at least 1952, if not before that. A good book to read is the "Radiotron Designers Handbook". It has alot of useful information by over a dozen engineers concerning all sorts of things. The amount of iron (or inductance) needed to reproduce 20 hz is twice that for 40 hz. 12 oz. isn't going to give low frequency response down that low without more saturation of the core and distortion products.
By the way, you were the one who made the ridiculous comment sometime back. Since you made it, it is not my responsibility to check all the SETs and check back to you. Since you made the comment, which you cannot back up, you are the one to test all the SETs.

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 27, 2000 at 15:12:15
Jack G


 
>>>A good book to read is the "Radiotron Designers Handbook".<<<
I'm sure its on everyone's christmas list.
However, i prefer to use my ears to judge equipement, not my eyes.
Whats next, rattling off spec sheets?

>>>By the way, you were the one who made the ridiculous comment sometime back. Since you made it, it is not my responsibility to check all the SETs and check back to you. Since you made the comment, which you cannot back up, you are the one to test all the SETs<<<

No, I dont think so. While you may feel it is rediculous to listen to equipement, I prefer to listen to it, not read about it. By your own admission, you have heard very few SETs. In fact, you knowledge appears to be limited to bashing Cary.
Jack

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 27, 2000 at 16:25:08
joe


 
Dear Jack,
Who made the statement that KT88s don't sound as good as 300Bs, period???? Who,,,,,Who,,,,. I think you made that statement, which you cannot back up with proof. The responsibility lies with you my friend.
You cannot make such half way comments that affect people without proof. And the only "proof" you provided was your own test on one of your amps. I listen just as much as you do, so please don't try to sidetrack with the specs. story. So just remember, you first made the statement. So if someone challenges you and you cannot back it up, that is your problem and your responsibility. NOT MINE.

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 27, 2000 at 17:11:18
Jack G


 

Yes, i stand by that comment. I've heard enough KT-88s of various brands, and 300Bs of various brands,in various configurations, IMO, KT-88s dont sound as good as 300Bs(even in PP mode)

Speaking of generalizations, you wrote:

>>>What about the Cary with the 300B's. From what I have heard and heard,it sounds crappy. Loose bass and no highs. Now that is top notch. <<<
then you wote
>>>?? You can't go by one or two companies. <<<
where you appear to do just that.
and then there's this gem(my personal fav), the classic cry of the audio*reader*:

>>>Maybe it is the money involved. After all, wouldn't you feel foolish if you spent a ton of money, only to realize you may have been taken?<<
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
I used to have an $8K 6550/kt-88 amp.Its now collecting dust,not even cutting it in my bedroom, embarrassed by all my SETs. I'm currently listening to $1.8K 2A3 amp, soon to be replaced by a Type 10 amp thats less expensive.
I put my money where my mouth is-thats my proof.
enjoy,
Jack


 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 28, 2000 at 09:30:46
joe


 
Dear Jack,
That is your proof. Fine for you. But don't feed your opinions on others as fact? And I am not the one who said 300Bs were worse. I just mentioned that 300Bs in the Cary design sounded crappy in my opinion. And that is the important thing. It is my opinion. Can you understand that it is the design I was refering too? The same is true with other tubes too. Just because you bought $8,000 amps. doesn't mean it was the best, or even good. I don't mean to crap all over, but when you make unsubstantiated comments that affect many companies out there, you, not meaning to (I hope), are trying to control the destiny of all these companies. You haven't heard them, so why crap on them??? As long as it is your opinion, fine, but don't try to control our lives,
Ok.

 

Re: re: good SET amps, posted on April 28, 2000 at 09:32:05
joe


 
Probably right, although I know the designer personally.

 

Oh Please...., posted on April 28, 2000 at 12:04:13
BillC


 
>>> but when you make unsubstantiated comments that affect many companies out there, you, not meaning to (I hope), are trying to control the destiny of all these companies.

Give me a break. Jack is just as entitled to his opinion as anyone else, and I hardly see how his voiced opinion on this forum will have any effect on the "destiny" of the nameless companies of which you speak.

You seem adamant about being allowed to voice your opinion, but inflexible with anyone else voicing theirs. What's with that?

BillC

 

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