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Null tester by Ethan Winer

213.7.238.129
Posted on December 24, 2019 at 04:06:39
pegwill
Audiophile

Posts: 25
Joined: March 19, 2010
 While this is bound to be controversial I found the article on YouTube regarding the differences in cables very interesting just search YouTube for Null testing by Ethan Winner.

No I didn't follow or understand everything that he said for sure but I did follow the logic. I think it is a similar idea to what's used in noise cancelling headphones.


Whether the results are true or not I'm not able to say.

If you can do this for cables could it be done for resistors and capacitors?

All very interesting

Regards to all

Have great Christmas and a happy New Year

 

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RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 24, 2019 at 11:19:46
13th Duke of Wymbourne
Audiophile

Posts: 2799
Location: Orange Co., Ca
Joined: September 19, 2001
 Hi pegwill,

how is the weather in the UK? If it is not cold enough there you are guaranteed a frosty reception with posts like that here. Check out the Cable Asylum mission statement, which is basically that this forum is only for people to post about the differences they hear between cables. Any talk of no differences between cables, or any measurements, is not welcomed. This is OK with me but I think the mission statement should be posted more prominently in red letters so that innocent folks don't wander in and say something inappropriate.

Happy Hols
13DoW

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 25, 2019 at 14:47:10
Davey
 As an objective test, the differential scheme he designed and implemented is perfectly valid. It removes all variables except the intrinsic differences (if there are any) of cable A and cable B. Key to that is the really low source driving resistance employed.

Anybody that claims his setup is not valid is blowing smoke.

Dave.

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 25, 2019 at 18:52:30
russe41
Audiophile

Posts: 15
Joined: October 5, 2000
 Everone has an opinion about it.
But what comes to mind is the saying "A FOOL AND HIS MONEY...
Something like that, I'll spend mine on music!

 

I love that he uses the Mogami W2314 cable..., posted on December 26, 2019 at 07:48:33
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3156
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018
 from the output device to the driver to eliminate possible artifacts. I guess cables make a difference in this case. I wonder what cable the Mogami betters. He should compare them against each other using the null tester.

Jonesy


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 27, 2019 at 11:10:02
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12592
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 What measurement is used to distinguish soundstage and imaging?

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 25, 2019 at 14:30:30
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 The only frosty response is from you. Perfectly snarky as would be expected about the topic. The Cable Asylum Mission Statement link is prominently placed at the top of the page, and if a poster needs a heads-up, most Cable Asylum regulars and the AA moderators tend to post friendly reminders, only resorting to more stern responses when a poster is belligerent. The reputation as considered by some folks that Cable Asylum is somehow unfair about the notion of audiophile cabling being protected in a specialized audio forum is a tired complaint, without merit based on the endless threads that were created when debates went nowhere before the rule against DBT discussions and the Cable Asylum Mission Statement were established. Happy Holidays, 13DoW.

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 26, 2019 at 13:53:38
13th Duke of Wymbourne
Audiophile

Posts: 2799
Location: Orange Co., Ca
Joined: September 19, 2001
 Hi Duster,
I will take 'perfectly snarky' as a compliment, though not intended as one. As I have written beofre Brits tend to look for humo(u)r in any situation and, as pegwill is in the UK, I took the chance he has a sense of humour. But, besides, that what is there to object to in what I wrote? I summarized the mission statement pretty well. Your problem with the forum is that you want objectivist discussion restricted but want the forum seen as a place of enlightenment. Maybe you are so close to the subject that you can't see this, but it cannot be both things. We have discussed before that the mission statement be more obvious so that newbies don't make objectivist posts because no good comes of them. I mean, look at your thread with Davey above. Davey made a valid post, the null test is a good objective tool. He did not say DBT, he did not say cables don't sound different but you went all defensive and became, frankly, nonsensical.
I am OK with this forum being purely subjective just be completely up front about it.

Seasonal wishes,
13DoW

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 25, 2019 at 16:51:59
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 Contesting the validity of DBT from a subjectivist perspective is not blowing smoke. This is the kind of naysayer post that the Cable Asylum rules are intended for. A test based on objectivism is not direct experience evaluated by keen observation of a particular audio device within an intimate listening environment over the test of time, often as a shared experience by many listeners who take the time to use their own ears to establish a personal database for their own reference, and for the benefit of sharing towards others involved in the audiophile hobby.

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 25, 2019 at 18:14:51
Davey
 What Ethan's tester does is not a double-blind test. Have you even read about his tester and looked at his YT video? I suggest to do that if you haven't. Differential testing is a powerful tool for A/B tests.

But, feel free to report me to the moderator for mentioning a DBT test that isn't really a DBT test. Ha!

Dave.

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 25, 2019 at 18:46:46
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 "Differential testing is a powerful tool for A/B tests." It's an A/B test of another type vs. DBT from an objectivist POV. Perfectly fine for anyone to participate in if they wish to, just not appropriate for a discussion of cables in Cable Asylum. Keep in mind that Propeller Head Plaza is designated for such discussions. Otherwise, it's simply fuel for ugly flame wars in this forum. The problem is some folks don't care to visit Propeller Head Plaza to do battle with those who protest against the matter, so there's no little fun to be had in Prop Head about such a thing. I don't know, since I rarely visit that Audio Asylum forum:

Propeller Head Plaza - Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics.

See link:

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 25, 2019 at 19:03:56
Davey
 I think it's the CA moderator (not you) who will decide whether the Ethan Winer differential cable test is appropriate discussion for the Cable Asylum.

You're on your way to getting all twisted up in pretzel logic again. I suggest to stay focused.

Dave.

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 25, 2019 at 19:33:15
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "Propeller Head Plaza - Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics."

So the cable asylum is for talking about how cables sound (as an opinion) with no references to the technical reasons why?

OK.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 25, 2019 at 20:42:03
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002



It's obvious that the Cable Asylum moderator is the final arbitrator in this forum, but the nature of public forums has always included an aspect of self-moderation by regular posters, whether while participating on early Usenet groups moderated by a designated administrator, or more modern internet forums handled by official moderators like Audio Asylum. Nothing I tend to say is against the forum rules, except when I participate in arguments having to do with forum rules, like I'm too close to doing right now. Better be quiet before I get a time-out from The Bored.

Peace on Earth and Goodwill Towards Men

Merry Christmas, Davey.

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 25, 2019 at 20:20:11
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 Never said that, since I often refer to technical specs and insights when discussing cables. It's the arguments from a solely objectivist POV, with a naysaying if not hostile attitude that's covered by the rules of this forum. If you have complaints against the notion of rules when participating in Cable Asylum, take it up with The Bored by using the 'Alert Moderator" link.

Cheers, Duster

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 26, 2019 at 15:33:50
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 You may disagree with me about objectivist claims being up for debate in Cable Asylum, but accusing me of being nonsensical is a stretch. Any type of A/B test based on an objectist perspective is no more acceptable than DBT tests, and for the same reason. Objectivists only target cables as a controversial audio device, with a goal to somehow disprove the notion of audiophile cabling by the use of quasi-scientific methods and tools. Jon Risch the moderator of Cable Asylum is more eloquent than I am when it comes to explaining the issue of objectivism in this forum, and a search of the AA archives should provide clear explanations about the matter. I have no desire to research the nature of objectivist A/B tests, no more than I wish to read the rants that can be found on the web that slam the notion of audiophile cables and the listeners who enjoy them.

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 27, 2019 at 06:57:49
Ric
Audiophile

Posts: 364
Joined: October 14, 2001
 It's kind of a mystery to me, this form of cable denying that exists on so many forums, and underneath many comments, the intent seems mean spirited, even if it is cloaked in apparent friendliness.
What is it? Is it the cost? Is it there is a sense of ripoff involved? Is it that others hear things that do not have a scientific basis, therefore it has no validity? Is it that they do not hear differences in cables unless there is scientific measurement proving said differences?
WTF? Look at Absolute Sound website (etc.) where a reviewer has posted impressions and you see such negative commenting when really, if you haven't heard it, can't afford it, or you just don't understand someone else's impressions, please STFU and comment about something that you KNOW or have EXPERIENCED. THEN you open the floor to discussion. Measurements are not about discussion, experience is. Negative MF's need not apply....

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 27, 2019 at 14:33:24
13th Duke of Wymbourne
Audiophile

Posts: 2799
Location: Orange Co., Ca
Joined: September 19, 2001
 Hey Duster, I used the term nonsensical not about your beliefs but about how defensive you are over them. In recap, I suggested that posting objective material here does not lead to constructive discussions and is also against the forum mission statement. I thought we'd agree on this topic.

13doW

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 28, 2019 at 08:35:52
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 Excellent point, Dawnrazor. The notion of audiophile listening cues is not at the top of the list when using 16 AWG zip cord as speaker wire is claimed to be as good as it gets.

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 28, 2019 at 10:37:15
Davey
 Soundstage and imaging is almost entirely about speakers and their radiation pattern. You know that, right?

Dave.

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on December 28, 2019 at 08:30:01
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 OK, 13doW. Thanks for the clarification. I agree I'm a bit of a guard dog in the forum, and can be rather aggressive when hostile naysayers take potshots at Cable Asylum, but more innocent intentions tend to be dealt with from an amiable perspective, with personal attacks given the most rancor, so I reacted towards your post in a defensive manner. That said, I won't pull punches when some folks show overt disrespect for the forum rules, and the spirit of the forum for what it is, and won't always wait for Jon Risch to step in, since he's busy enough with his audio career as it is. I've always come from a fellow AA Inmate's POV, with no pretense of the power of a moderator, just another poster who has found good reason to defend this specialized audio forum. It's certainly freed up other audiophile cable users and advocates from getting into scraps in the forum, so if I'm to be the bad guy to some folks, let it be.

Cheers, Duster

 

RE: "speakers and their radiation pattern"..., posted on December 28, 2019 at 11:40:38
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Which can be measured?

Yes?

No?




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: "speakers and their radiation pattern"..., posted on December 28, 2019 at 13:29:07
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 Good point, Ivan303. Loudspeakers and their radiation patterns can be measured, but the test results won't indicate what your ears are hearing. Julian Hirsch, the electrical engineer and audio critic for Stereo Review never seemed to dislike a loudspeaker that measured well, even though many audiophiles didn't always agree with his opinions via their own listening experiences, back in the day.

 

RE: "speakers and their radiation pattern"..., posted on December 28, 2019 at 16:08:06
Davey
 My goodness.
I suggest to do some reading on the topic. :)

Dave.

 

RE: "speakers and their radiation pattern"..., posted on December 28, 2019 at 16:14:23
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Sarcasm.

Perhaps YOU should be the one doing the reading. :-)




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: "speakers and their radiation pattern"..., posted on December 28, 2019 at 17:09:47
Davey
 ...

 

RE: "speakers and their radiation pattern"..., posted on December 28, 2019 at 17:12:42
davem1
Audiophile

Posts: 275
Location: Washington, DC Metro
Joined: July 16, 2012
 That makes three times you've ducked the question. Does that usually work for you?

 

RE: "speakers and their radiation pattern"..., posted on December 28, 2019 at 18:07:41
Davey
 What question are you talking about??

Dave.

 

Yes. nt, posted on January 1, 2020 at 07:40:06
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 .
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Problems with the Ethan Winer Null Tester, posted on January 4, 2020 at 13:27:17
Jon Risch
Bored Member

Posts: 6659
Joined: April 4, 2000
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 Input and Output impedance's
The typical audio cable connection environment is between a source of signal, and

an input load. This is true whether the cable runs between a CD player, to a pre-amp, or between a pre-amp and a power amp, etc.

In the case of solid state gear, the output impedance can be very low, or
moderately high, and is typically mostly resistive. In the case of tube gear, the output impedance can be relatively high, may be from a transformer secondary, and thus with a complex impedance profile.
The input impedance of solid state gear is typically of a medium high impedance, and primarily resistive. The input impedance of most tubed gear is usually pretty high, with a bit of a capacitive component.

Ethan's Null Tester undoubtedly uses a very low output impedance for the cable feed, and a very high input impedance for the load.

All of this means that Ethan's Null Tester is not testing the cables under real world operating conditions, but rather, under some sort of idealized conditions that are never seen in the real world.

This alone renders any results from his tester invalid, but wait, there's more.

Common Ground
His Null Tester uses a common ground, which means that any of the common inter chassis ground potential problems that often occur, are not present.
See:
DIY Cables and RFI/IGP
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/80108.html
and
Cable RF Termination and Cable Loading
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/80110.html
and
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/36909.html

This is another major factor in an audio cables performance, and one that is completely eliminated by the use of a common ground situation for the cable "testing".
Virtually no real world equipment is totally free from IGP, due to the modern requirements for EMI control by the FCC, so all that can be done is to minimize the IGP, and deal with it using real world cables and cable connections.

For cables under test, the environment is not typical
The cables connected to Ethan's Null Tester are not seeing the typical environment of other audio cables, digital cables, Ethernet, AC power and speaker cables, all nearby in some form at some distance. The are not hanging out the back of a preamp or receiver that may also be handling the switching of 4k video, or digital audio, or whatever competing set of EM signals are going on at the time.

Thus, the cable shielding is not being fully stressed or tested for it's protection from these outside interference's.
The usually quite obvious difference between a simple coax, versus a single-ended twisted pair with overall telescoping shield, versus a true balanced feed would not even show up, and be eliminated from showing their benefits.

Why you could probably shove a coat-hanger into the hot jacks, and come up with a decent null, and while it is a tired old saw from the ages, I don't think even the cable naysayers are going to advocate that we change out all of our cables for coat-hangers.

There are just the obvious reasons that Ethan's Null Tester results in a lot of meaningless hot air, but should be sufficient for anyone truly dedicated to the actual pursuit of science and the truth.
Jon Risch

 

Would it be unfair of me to paraphrase your arguments as .., posted on January 7, 2020 at 19:18:46
13th Duke of Wymbourne
Audiophile

Posts: 2799
Location: Orange Co., Ca
Joined: September 19, 2001
 .. the null test is so ideal that it can only show the inherent differences between cables, which are so small as to be reasonably assumed inaudible?

Instead, the real area of interest and audible difference is how cables create ground loops and allow RFI ingress to equipment, which will be very system specific.

Regards
13DoW

 

RE: Would it be unfair of me to paraphrase your arguments as .., posted on January 8, 2020 at 07:03:01
Davey
 He won't answer, but your take is absolutely correct.

Ethan Winer's cable tester aside, the fact is the vast majority of cables....when driven from a typical low resistance source and terminated into a typical high impedance load will sound the same. There's nothing in the created interface to account for audible (or measurable) differences.

Your point regarding external factors being system specific is also correct. Those factors are variables and could indeed result in ie, Cable A picking up hum when Cable B doesn't....in a certain environment.

Objective deniers occupy the real estate where subjective evaluation trumps everything. Subjective evaluation is, by definition, beyond discussion, so any objective understanding/testing can be set aside with impunity. Very convenient.

Dave.

 

RE: Would it be unfair of me to paraphrase your arguments as .., posted on January 8, 2020 at 18:41:34
13th Duke of Wymbourne
Audiophile

Posts: 2799
Location: Orange Co., Ca
Joined: September 19, 2001
 Hi Davey,

I didn't want to get into the subjective vs objective arguments but I am interested in Jon's post. Did he post because he wanted to attack the null test and, in doing so, accidentally implied that the only differences between cables are due to ground loop & RFI effects. Or, does he really believe that differences are due ONLY to those causes and posted that deliberately.

Regards
13DoW

 

RE: Would it be unfair of me to paraphrase your arguments as .., posted on January 8, 2020 at 21:18:50
Jon Risch
Bored Member

Posts: 6659
Joined: April 4, 2000
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 You miss the point entirely.

He has created an artificially ideal set of conditions that throw away any and all differences between cables, with a very unrealistic method of signal analysis.

Cables measure different, they sound different, and his Null Tester was designed to do one thing: Null out (throw out) the true differences, which is NOT the same thing as what is implied by the name of the device.

Hafler did essentially the same thing with the XL-280 in the late 1980's, it tested out with a very deep null, on a Hafler built null test. No one ever accepted it as the ultimate reference amp, because it was not faithful to the actual music signal in the real world on real loudspeakers.

No one else ever tried to use Hafler's technique to design a power amp, probably because it failed so miserably to achieve actual sonic perfection.

So while the Null Tester methodology is beguiling and seductive in it's apparent perfection, it is not a true measure of an audio cable, due to the above mentioned issues, as well as some secondary issues that I did not bother to touch on, that involve the musicality of the components used in the circuits of the device.

Believe what you want, but science is about the facts, and the proper interpretation of those facts, and if you insist on only looking at the subject from a slanted objectionist POV, then all the problems are nails waiting to be driven by a wonderful Null Tester hammer from Heaven.
Jon Risch

 

RE: Would it be unfair of me to paraphrase your arguments as .., posted on January 9, 2020 at 07:31:36
Davey
 After the latest post, it appears that Jon doesn't even understand how the null tester works.

Two cables that are different can not be successfully nulled with the tester via the process. I'm not sure why that's such a difficult concept to grasp.

Ethan explains all this pretty well in his video....albeit with a sort of snarky approach. (But he's always been that way.) :)

Why this thread was exiled over here to the PHP is still a mystery. It violated no rules of either the anti-DBT or CA mission statement premise(s). Jon told me offline it "wasn't in the spirit" of the Cable Asylum. Oh, okay, great. :)

Cheers,

Dave.

 

RE: Would it be unfair of me to paraphrase your arguments as .., posted on January 9, 2020 at 15:51:25
13th Duke of Wymbourne
Audiophile

Posts: 2799
Location: Orange Co., Ca
Joined: September 19, 2001
 Hi Jon,
I was not commenting on the efficacy, or otherwise, of the null test but wanted to be sure I had interpreted your response correctly. It is not a stretch to interpret your response as differences between cables are only due to quantifiable phenomena - was this unintentional or intentional?

Regards
13DoW

 

RE: "speakers and their radiation pattern"..., posted on January 13, 2020 at 19:16:59
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 The REAL question is 'can you measure enough?' And once measured, without a sufficient database and background, what do you have?
Too much is never enough

 

Darn! Cogent, concise, succinct... elegant answer.~nT, posted on January 29, 2020 at 13:42:40
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7551
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 ~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: Problems with the Ethan Winer Null Tester, posted on January 29, 2020 at 16:25:19
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Yet when Bob Carver used such a 'nulling' technique to match his amp to an unknown reference amp, the golden eared listeners could NOT distinguish his amp from the refernce which cost a LOT more.

My take-away is that ALL systems are essentially an 'artifact' with each piece contributing to the whole. changes may or may not produce an audible change, and even than maybe to only SOME listeners.
Too much is never enough

 

Maybe, posted on February 11, 2020 at 14:46:44
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37634
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Whiner enjoys listening to sine waves holding cables attached to nothing...

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on June 8, 2020 at 22:30:00
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12592
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 ok, so which specs will let me know between 2 speakers which images better and which has a bigger soundstage??

Ethan said we can measure everything. So which ones do I look at?

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on July 19, 2020 at 06:15:50
tweaker456
Audiophile

Posts: 7740
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: June 20, 2020
 I certainly don't know that and I can't imagine that too many others around this place know it either. Cables, resistors, capacitors, damping and just about anything else you can think of don't or can't significantly effect sound stage and imaging. Tell my you're just joshin' Davey. One of the more bizarre statements I've read around here. Or at the very least, flat out incorrect.






So let us stop talkin' falsely now, the hour's getting late --
Robert Allen Zimmerman

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on November 6, 2020 at 06:50:29
geoffkait
 Those who don't believe in cables or cable directionality or differences between copper and silver conductors, etc.will sometimes go to great lengths to try to prove their claim that no differences exist.

People would be much better off if they believed in too much rather than too little. - P.T. Barnum

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on November 6, 2020 at 12:17:15
geoffkait
 Those who don't believe in cables or cable directionality or differences between copper and silver conductors, etc.will sometimes go to great lengths to try to prove their claim that no differences exist.

People would be much better off if they believed in too much rather than too little. - P.T. Barnum

 

First off, posted on September 30, 2021 at 07:54:41
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 I am seeing this thread in Prop head not the cable forum. Prop head mission statement is as follows. "Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics."

"scientific" That seems to me to be part and parcel with things you are not allowed to discuss on the cable forum.

I will start my comments on your questions by being very clear. I believe the vast majority of audio cables are audibly transparent. The exception being when they are built with so much capacitance, inductance and/or resistance as to become a passive EQ device.

I do feel a certain sense of hostility towards manufactures of many "high end" cables because I do think many of them are committing fraud. But I have no doubt that some of them do believe their products actually make a positive difference. I am less hostile towards them but still think their failure to even consider the science on the subject is somewhat irresponsible.

As for audiophiles/consumers I feel no hostility towards them whatsoever. BUT in open forums where these issues are discussed I feel no obligations to coddle them in addressing the facts on the subject. This often leads to attacks against me for stating such facts. At that point I don't worry so much about whether or not my comments seem insulting. I try to champion evidence based rational thought in a world that has largely disregarded such ideals.

If audiophiles want to spend a lot of money on cables that make no actual audible differences because they are enjoying the benefits of bias effects I really have no problem with it.If they want to debate the veracity of their claims that the same cables make an actual audible difference I am quick to defend the side of evidence based rational thought. Science is worth defending in public forums IMO

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on September 30, 2021 at 09:08:02
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 Maybe you can tell us how two cables that have no differences in their signal transmission above -110 db can affect sound staging and imaging?

 

so what would stop us from doing the same test and adding those real world conditions?, posted on September 30, 2021 at 09:17:06
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 "Input and Output impedance's
The typical audio cable connection environment is between a source of signal, and

an input load. This is true whether the cable runs between a CD player, to a pre-amp, or between a pre-amp and a power amp, etc.

In the case of solid state gear, the output impedance can be very low, or
moderately high, and is typically mostly resistive. In the case of tube gear, the output impedance can be relatively high, may be from a transformer secondary, and thus with a complex impedance profile.
The input impedance of solid state gear is typically of a medium high impedance, and primarily resistive. The input impedance of most tubed gear is usually pretty high, with a bit of a capacitive component."


How hard is it to add different loads to the signal path using his methodology?

 

a lot of measurable factors affect sound staging and imaging, posted on September 30, 2021 at 09:23:24
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 I think the relevant question here is what differences in an audio signal that are as low in level as -110 db can affect sound staging in a stereo system? Soundstaging and imaging is about the differences between left and right audio signals. So keep that in mind when ansering what changes in an audio signal that are below -110 db can affect the sound stage and imaging when those same changes are present in both the left and right channels

 

RE: First off, posted on September 30, 2021 at 09:49:14
Davey
 Scott,

You're replying to a thread that was exiled over here to the PHP two years ago. :)

Dave.

 

I rarely venture into prop head and never into the cable forum, posted on September 30, 2021 at 11:44:30
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 amazing how timeless the debate is.

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on October 18, 2021 at 17:34:57
Roadrider
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Location: Northern Cal
Joined: June 11, 2008
 Soundstage and imaging come from the speakers and their placement (to each other, to the room and to the listener) and from proper placement of room treatments. Some music is mixed with reverb which supplies a false soundstage, but can sound good in some situations. Some recordings are made in venues that have long natural reverberation times, such as concert halls for classical music.

Excluding really bad electronics that have gobs of distortion and minimal channel separation, proper placement of speakers and good acoustical room treatments are all that's needed to create a good sense of soundstage and imaging.

 

RE: Null tester by Ethan Winer, posted on October 24, 2021 at 16:23:20
geoffkait
 Let's not forget reverberant decay, secondary reflections, echo and other three dimensional space cues that are embedded in the recording.

 

RE: Problems with the Ethan Winer Null Tester, posted on March 4, 2022 at 12:03:45
roberttcan
Audiophile

Posts: 49
Location: Near an Ocean
Joined: February 28, 2022
 The problem with your argument is all these things should make it harder for Ethan to null the cable, not easier.

 

+1 nt, posted on March 9, 2022 at 08:43:21
geoffkait
 Nt

 

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