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How do cables affect affect the quality of sound?

190.149.188.162
Posted on October 15, 2017 at 08:13:10
Rafaro
Audiophile

Posts: 158
Joined: July 30, 2005
 For live sound the school of sound engineering recommended Zip cord of appropiate gauge!! Out of 15 items that affected the quality of sound reproduction cables was listed as LAST in importance. Any scientific evidence to the contrary??

Rafaro

 

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RE: How do cables affect affect the quality of sound?, posted on October 15, 2017 at 08:44:03
SpotcheckBilly12345
 How dare you ask that question on this Forum?


;-))))))


Cheers,
SB

 

RE: How do cables affect affect the quality of sound?, posted on October 15, 2017 at 10:32:20
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
 I am curious, which "school of sound engineering" are you referring to?
Is this a bachelor's degree program in Audio Technology or Audio Engineering, or something else? It sounds like the comment was referencing live shows such as stage show concerts and not studio recording, correct?

I am a little unclear why you ask the question here since from the viewpoint of an "audiophile," you can read endless arguments about this subject on this forum and over at Audiogon.

 

RE: How do cables affect affect the quality of sound?, posted on October 15, 2017 at 12:08:23
Tweaker456
 Why don't you ask the geniuses at the school. Then again I'm sure you could learn a great deal by putting a sign wave through different wires and cables to see the difference. One or both of these should answer your somewhat questionable question. A better question, IMHO would be do different recording "engineers" affect the quality of sound.

 

Can't ask for a scientific explanation or any explanation..., posted on October 15, 2017 at 13:42:59
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3156
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018
 when you don't know the other 14 things. Is a microphone more important. Acoustics. Mixer. Amp. Pre-amp. Interconnects. Shielding. Etc. I could probably make a list of 14 things that would put the speaker wire last. Why troll with this kind of limited information?

And really, you're asking two questions. 1) why is last on a sound engineering list.

2) is there scientific proof?

Question 1) would be interesting to discuss given more info.

Question 2) you already know the answer

Cheers!


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

Cable Asylum Mission Statement, posted on October 15, 2017 at 17:31:32
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 See link to Cable Asylum Mission Statement below.

Arguments about scientific proof regarding the sonic benefit of various types of cables, as well as audio connectors for that matter is not allowed in Cable Asylum, since the contention it creates between cable naysayers and cable advocates tends to cause far too much hostility within the forum. The fundamental argument tends to boil down to folks who have direct experience of various cables vs. those without direct experience of such things, who simply wish to denigrate others and their findings in this specialized forum. There are other audio forums where folks can attack the notion of audiophile-quality cables, and express a negative attitude towards audiophiles who share their experiences of various cables in Cable Asylum.

The term "asylum" does not only mean a place for crazy people, it also means a place where folks can find sanctuary and peace of mind while posting on-topic messages. Propeller Head Plaza is an Audio Asylum forum where cable naysayers can post their arguments if they wish to bash the notion of better audio via various cables. Otherwise, it's also against the spirit of Cable Asylum for cable advocates to argue against cable naysayers and internet trolls in this forum, so they can also be reprimanded for participating in such a thing. In this case, I simply wish to share the key issue within the forum, and won't reply to any contentious responses, as a result.

See link:

 

RE: How do cables affect affect the quality of sound?, posted on October 15, 2017 at 10:48:00
Rafaro
Audiophile

Posts: 158
Joined: July 30, 2005
 This is how cables were considered at a major university in their sound engineering courses. I did not necessarily agree but it seems an appropiate basic question to ask. Much can be learned from the answers wether scientifically inclined or otherwise. Silver, gold, cupper, purity, guage, type of insulating cover, etc etc etc What has been looked into scientifically vs hearing test blinded or otherwise.


Rafaro

 

RE: How do cables affect affect the quality of sound?, posted on October 15, 2017 at 13:55:01
beautox
Manufacturer

Posts: 366
Location: New Plymouth
Joined: July 9, 2013
...a sign wave...


Is that the one-fingered sign wave so beloved by Americans?

 

RE: How do cables affect affect the quality of sound?, posted on October 15, 2017 at 15:42:57
Tweaker456
 Plenty of recording "engineers" out there that could rightfully be given sign waves. Maybe I can hang out at Telarc for one of my favorite pass times. And another thing, a lot of Americans deserve it just in case you haven't been watching the news lately.

 

Your post was moved. See references in this post, posted on October 15, 2017 at 20:41:55
Jon Risch
Bored Member

Posts: 6659
Joined: April 4, 2000
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 This is the forum for discussion of then scientific aspects of audio cables and their sound. Per Dusters post, we don't allow cable bashing in the Cable Asylum.

I copy my annotated cable bibliography below, and the idea is, that audio cables consist of L, C and R components, as well as other factors that play into the very stringent requirements of the audio signal, which has one of the widest bandwidth of almost any signal out there (10 octaves plus), and an incredible requirement for dynamic range well in excess of what is commonly thought of as necessary, and linearity issues that are typically not thought of at all, sine it is "just audio".

If you are serious about your question, then do your homework, I provide a wealth of information, and posted discourse on the subject, along with the threads that accompany said discourse.


NOTE: THE GEOCITIES WEB PAGES ARE NO LONGER DIRECTLY AVAILABLE, BUT A "GHOST SITE" HAS PICKED THEM UP, AND THEY CAN BE ACCESSED AT:
http://www.geocities.ws/jonrisch/cables.htm

Note that a "WS" is now in place of the COM in the URL.

I do not vouch for this site, it has ads and maybe even potential malware, etc., if you click on ONLY the link pages for my site, it has generally been no problem to do so.

Use the AA website URL's first, and only use the ws site if absolutely necessary.

**************************************************

Risch, Jon M.; Assorted Posts and Web Pages, 1997-2012

All the DIY cable links on one page:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/cables.htm

The DIY note that started it all
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/i1.htm

for the companion note to the interconnect note, the one on DIY speaker cables
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/s1.htm
How to connect a quad CC 89259 speaker cable:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/19015.html
About different CAT-5 recipes:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/55645.html

DIY AC power cord post:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/51766.html
Assembly Info for power cords:
http://www.partsexpress.com/resources/110-400.html

DIY Power Strip post:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/42282.html

DIY Digital Cables:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/66862.html
and for comments on how the three sound:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/46405.html

Diagrams and pictures of speaker cable:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/page2.htm
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/page3.htm
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/spkrcbl1.htm
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/spkrcbl2.htm

Assembly of CC89259 Speaker Cables:
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/Belden-89259-Speaker-Cables/
http://www.tubeaholic.com/projects/page.view?RowId=66
------------------GONE?
http://www.audiyo.com/pdf/CC89259_John_Risch_Speaker_Cables.pdf

Assembly of 89259 stock coax IC:
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/DIY-Belden-89259-Interconnect-Cables/
http://www.mindspring.com/~pmbenn/cables.htm
http://www.echoloft.com/articles/belden/89259%20fab.htm
http://www.audiyo.com/interconnect.pdf
Assembly of stock coax, and twisted pairs:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/91526.html
Assembly of twisted pair:
http://www.gingercable.com/ (chineese, but lots of pictures)
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/99543.html
Assembly of balanced twisted pair:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/109148.html
Latest post:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/113781.html

Troubleshooting DIY IC's:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/123714.html

Canare Crimper Info:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/96817.html

Assembly info and comments on IC's, Speaker cables, AC line filter:
http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~arora/audio/DIY.html

Pictures of soldering RCA plugs:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/ic.htm

NEW! Spring loaded terminal solution:
http://www.sjgreatdeals.com/ultflexpin4.html

http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/emf1.htm
simulations of various cables, depicting the EMF's associated with them.

Cable FAQ's
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/1582.html

Cable inductance, and how it is controlled
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/17.html

Cable capacitance and HF roll-off:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/48940.html
and
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/433.html

Separated speaker cable conductors:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/127756.html

Long Speaker Cables vs. Long Interconnects:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/1080.html

Cable Esoterica
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/2341.html
(new address for the Belden URL: http://bwcecom.belden.com/college/Techpprs/ciocahalf.htm)

DIY Cables and RFI/IGP
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/80108.html

Cable RF Termination and Cable Loading
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/80110.html

Everyone Should Get Good Cables:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/344328.html

PsuedoScience from the Naysayers exposed:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/68451.html

A discussion of selected ABX/DBT issues:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/2190.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/2579.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/2580.html
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/3100.html

Covers some of the relevant EMF aspects of audio cables
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/9387.html
and
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/100050.html

Advanced shielding concepts:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/4450.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/95641.html

All about bi-wiring, the hows and whys
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/biwiring.htm
AND
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/biwiring2.htm
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/biwiring3.htm
Latest Flash on bi-wiring:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/13441.html
Current Through bi-wire cables:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/page7.htm

How to listen, excerpt from my AES paper:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/4321.html

Getting Used to the Sound:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/83801.html

My AES paper is preprint #3178, "A User Friendly Methodology for Subjective Listening Tests", presented at the 91st AES convention, October, 1991.
Consisting of 33 pages of text, and 19 references, it is too long to try and present here, and I urge anyone interested in the details to get a copy from the AES, it is available for $5, and can be ordered from:
http://www.aes.org/publications/preprints/search.html

The skinny on RG-6 coaxial cables:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/25155.html

Easy coaxial based speaker cables (Belden 8213):
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/7637.html
OR
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/s3.htm

The hows and whys of shorting plugs in unused inputs/outputs:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/932.html
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/1571.html
On 75 Ohm Loading plugs:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/11799.html

On RCA plugs/Jacks being a "true 75 ohms":
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/68008.html

How AC cords can affect the sound:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/13538.html
OR - http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/ac-cords.htm
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/general/messages/188129.html
Tests of a power cord on a digital recording system:
http://www.thuneau.com/MPC/
AC Power artifacts getting past a DVD power supply:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_3/dvd-benchmark-part-2-audio-9-2000.html
Latest, with all of the above listed:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/82423.html
and Ole's take:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/117899.html
Ground loop issues and interchasis currents:
http://www.edn.com/archives/1998/060498/12df_03.htm

Minimizing AC Power Leakage Currents, OR How to Orient Your Two-prong Non-polarized AC Plugs:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/36909.html

DIY Inexpensive Power Strip:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/42282.html


How digital audio interconnects can affect the sound:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/jitter.htm
some more advanced discussion about jitter at:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/digital/messages/55974.html
Latest post with a lot of cited URLs:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/133408.html

ALSO:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/99487.html
for a thread on jitter that gets into the nitty gritty.

How digital cables are different than analog:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/52546.html

Empirical Audio About cable length:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm


The difference between analog and digital IC's:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/52546.html

Digital Isolation Filter for CDPs:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/43988.html
schematic (top picture)
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/44145.html
my additional "tweak" to the iso filter:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/47160.html

Using Up the Error Budget in the Studio:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/30013.html

Zobel for unstable amps used with higher than zip cord capacitance cables:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/8955.html

Balanced to RCA and vice versa.
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/25544.html

Cable Break-in:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/6099.html

Skin Effect at Audio Frequencies:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/t2/messages/425.html

Digital IC's, SP/DIF and AES/EBU:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/66862.html
and for comments on how the three sound:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/46405.html

Why elevating cables off the floor may have an effect.
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/60272.html

Balanced IC's vs. Unbalanced (single-ended) IC's:
http://www.audioreview.com/message/DCForumID8/1766.html#1
BAD

discussion and comments on the BJC measurements.
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/103015.html
of their hum test at:
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/humrejection.htm

About cable "ground":
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/503.html

Cable Cooker possible problems:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/125929.html


The Cost of High End Audio Cables:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/34038.html

On copper purity:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/39092.html
see the resulting thread for complete details.

Casual Vs. Analytical Listening:
http://www.audioreview.com/message/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=202&forum=DCForumID3&omm=80

Eliminating Cable TV Ground Loop Hum:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/15453.html
(simple version)
AND
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/66830.html
(the involved version, with SS and grounding info)
digital cable alternative:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/98859.html

Video Cables, Critique of Tech Article:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/67058.html

How To Solder:
http://www.colomar.com/Shavano/soldering.html
http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/solderfaq.htm
http://home.att.net/~joemacjr/diyproject/soldering.html#
http://www.metcal.com/tips/tiplife1.html

Desoldering:
http://www.geocities.com/mistertippy/howto/desolder.html

Teflon properties:
http://www.polymerplastics.com/fluoro_fep.shtml
http://www.polymerplastics.com/fluoro_tefa.shtml

Teflon Valve stem packing string:
http://www.tfcoinc.com/ExpandedPTFEValveStemPacking.html

http://www.grainger.com/1/1/59538-poly-temp-19155-valve-stem-packing-5-32-x-120.html

http://www.cornerhardware.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=13371




********************************
References for the jitter notes at:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/jitter.htm
@#@#@
http://www.digido.com/jitteressay.html
AND
http://www.digido.com/wegetletters.html#anchor2484124
http://www.axon.nl/axon/axon_comp.nsf/whitepapers/whitepapers/$file/jitter.pdf
http://www.galstar.com/~ntracy/acg/AandE/npt.on.jitter2.htm
http://www.stereophile.com/fullarchives.cgi?280
(An archived Stereophile review, that shows measured jitter levels.)

http://www.essex.ac.uk/ese/research/audio_lab/malcolmspubdocs/C41%20SPDIF%20interface%20flawed.pdf
PDF of " IS THE AES/EBU/SPDIF DIGITAL AUDIO INTERFACE FLAWED?, Dunn, C. and Hawksford, M.O.J., 93rd AES Convention, San Francisco, preprint 3360, October 1992

http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/papers/jitter.pdf
(Talks about optical based jitter problems toward the end)

http://www.nanophon.com/audio/jitter92.pdf
http://www.nanophon.com/audio/diagnose.pdf
http://www.nanophon.com/audio/towards.pdf
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/frame.html?http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/DVDPlayers/DVDSound.shtml
http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/appnotes-d/jittercu.asp
http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~martin/bibliography/digital/d_conversion.html
http://www.audioprecision.com/publications//audiotst/jan96/jan961.shtml
http://www.audiotest.com/publications/audiotst/dec99/jitter_theory.html
NEW URL -
http://audioprecision.com/publications/audiotst/dec99/Dec-99.pdf
http://audioprecision.com/publications/audiotst/april00/Apr-00.pdf
http://www.jitter.de/english/engc_navfr.html
(This site has many links to good references, as well as decent explanations of what jitter is, etc.)

Replication News Article on Jitter:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/general/messages/977.html

Roger Nichols Article on CD mastering jitter:
http://www.rogernichols.com/EQ/EQ_2000_02.html

RE CD-R sounding better than the original:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/42391.html

On laser light and jitter:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/27625.html

http://www.elantec.com/pages/apppdf/d40954.pdf
(Impedance variations of a short cable, note may contain technical errors, graph labeling is not consistent)

http://www.toshiba.com/taec/components/Datasheet/TOTX173.pdf
(One of the more popular TOSLINK optical components)

Digital Logic chip output waveforms and ground bounce info:
TI
http://www-s.ti.com/sc/psheets/sdya010/sdya010.pdf
page23-26, waveform views of various devices, shows great shots of non-square square waves

Fairchild
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ms/MS/MS-541-MISC.pdf
Pages 10-16, digital logic waveforms, showing less than perfect logic signal transmission, ringing, ground bounce, etc. Esp p. 15-16
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ms/MS/MS-539-MISC.pdf
Shows good waveforms on page 4, also t-line effects for 3 foot cables.
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-831.pdf
Shows RF output of logic chips.
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-754.pdf
Shows mis-termination results, and (best case) real world waveforms.
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-375.pdf
Clearly shows waveform abberations due to the real world.

info on voltage regulator transients, re digital audio and jitter.
http://www.cherrysemiconductor.com/product/PDF/CS-5233-3PDF.pdf page5
http://www.linear-tech.com/pdf/lt0117.pdf, page 5
http://www.national.com/ads-cgi/viewer.pl/ds/LM/LM117.pdf, page 4
http://www-s.ti.com/sc/psheets/slvs297a/slvs297a.pdf
Fig. 12 and Fig. 13

Ground Bounce Info:

Good basic tutorial.
http://www.ultracad.com/g_bounce.pdf

Shows actual measurements, scope pics, etc.
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-640.pdf

About grounds.
http://www.signalintegrity.com/news/2_12.htm

****************************



Chris Van Haus's DIY Speaker Cable recipe:
http://www.venhaus1.com/index.html
http://www.venhaus1.com/diysilverinterconnects.html
http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html
http://www.venhaus1.com/diymains.html
http://www.venhaus1.com/aesebu.html

On braiding and how to, for cables:
http://www.saroftreve.com/wwl/braiding/braiding.shtml
http://www.stringpage.com/braid/braid.html
http://home.att.net/~chimeraone/wirefaq.html
Three-braid:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image%3ABraid_StepBystep.jpg

No good?
http://www.lis.pitt.edu/~sochats/TELE2058/awg.html
http://www.duke.edu/~scg3/braids.html

QuadCat Recipe by JonB.(lower L than usual braiding, similar C per pair basis)
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/54620.html
details at:
http://internet.cybermesa.com/~jmlpartners/DIY/sqc5.html

Gomer Cable:
http://members.tripod.com/beyond_gomer/

Thorsten Loesch's Cable Recipes at:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/tweaks.html
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diycables.html
Note: the TNT Cat5 speaker cable design uses CAT5 part
numbers NOT readily available in the US, and thus,
it will not be a good option for US DIYers.

The Enjoy The Music DIY digital IC recipe:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/etmcable.htm
(hint: use 1506A instead of 1505A for better results)

Greg Weaver's Signal Tape IC's:
http://www.soundstage.com/synergize/synergize021998.htm
Greg Smith's column on the above, and on stock 89259 coax as an IC:
http://www.soundstage.com/fringe/fringe111998.htm

Polypropylene rope IC's:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/44183.html
and
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/39023.html




Copyright Notice
All content Copyright Jon M. Risch, 2000 - 2012

All applicable copyright laws apply, all rights reserved,
except transmission by USENET and like facilities granted.
The informational content is not warrantied
in any way or form, and any use of said content are at the
reader's own risk, the author shall not be held responsible
in any way for any damages or injuries arising from the
content of this web site. Common safety practices are
encouraged at all times. Do not fold, spindle or mutilate
Jon Risch

 

RE: Your post was moved. See references in this post, posted on October 16, 2017 at 05:36:37
Kindablue
Audiophile

Posts: 1072
Joined: August 7, 2003
 I understand the importance of cables but I personally believe the reason that many people see it as not being important is that you can not get any notable results if the rest of your system is not spot on from the start. So I do understand why many people look at it as the last audio pc to perfect.
Just my quick thoughts. Much more knowledge here then I have on the subject but I do have experience with chasing the perfect audio sound at home.
Kindablue

 

RE: Your post was moved. See references in this post, posted on October 16, 2017 at 10:55:47
Tweaker456
 "that you can not get any notable results if the rest of your system is not spot on from the start. So I do understand why many people look at it as the last audio pc to perfect. " And pray tell, how did you come to this ridicules and irrational conclusion? If your system was spot on in the first place then you wouldn't have to worry about such a minor detail as the cable your music signal was going through. I'll gladly take up the back breaking challenge of ruining a spot on system with a really bad interconnect. T456

 

RE: How do cables affect affect the quality of sound?, posted on October 17, 2017 at 16:23:40
Rafaro
Audiophile

Posts: 158
Joined: July 30, 2005
 Did not expect such a defensive response from the group. Actually in school I went against the dept heads at that time and presented a long article (early 2000s) from the then president of the AES showing scientific evidence of the influence of cables smearing the sound based on a freq time delay. As it turns out the lower freqs penetrate deeper into the core of thicker cables and travel slower whereas the higher freg travel faster in the surface. So for long runs of cable you could actually detect a time based smearing which could be avoided by using multiple individual 22 gauge to prevent the IR heating associated with too thin a cable. Forgot the name of the Phd and pres of the AES at the time but will never forget the analogy he gave. If you watch a running river you will see lighter rapid moving objects on the surface and slower moving heavier objects deeper down. Must say that the school rapidly buried this article in the reference section of the library.

Rafaro

 

RE: Cable Asylum Mission Statement, posted on October 18, 2017 at 03:08:25
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2382
Joined: September 27, 2004
 > The fundamental argument tends to boil down to folks who have direct experience of various cables vs. those without direct experience of such things, who simply wish to denigrate others and their findings in this specialized forum.

Strange then when someone genuinely wants information about a high quality cable asking for first hand experience, comments about its construction, or alternative suggestions, he gets not a single reply on Cables! See my post about Xindak Gold cables from 10/14/17.

Many Cable contributors seem to sit fast and only let fly when someone asks a contentious question! Cables Forum is far too "clubby" with its own self-protective rules and how dare outsiders venture into their club lounge without being invited, however polite they are! It's very sad that one can't get helpful or constructive information from the forum one expects experts to reside.

I subsequently posted on High Efficiency Speakers to get answers - 15 so far.

 

RE: Cable Asylum Mission Statement, posted on October 18, 2017 at 05:22:54
Tweaker456
 Could it be that nobody here has any experience with the cable? There are or is at least one review on the cable. Whether or not it's a "high quality" cable would have to be up to you after hearing it. There are a lot more people in the world that have or "need" high efficiency speakers than two thousand dollar cables.

 

Use the search tool , posted on October 18, 2017 at 14:04:49
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37661
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 for the text: Roger Russell.

You'll get days of reading and comic relief. :)

 

RE: Your post was moved. See references in this post, posted on October 18, 2017 at 15:46:26
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17303
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 .
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

You sure stirred things up., posted on October 20, 2017 at 11:40:53
YRY
Audiophile

Posts: 491
Location: So. California
Joined: April 4, 2002
 But if you are looking for cables for your home system, it's best to audition them at home, no matter what anyone says about brand A, B, or C.

 

Commencement speech, posted on October 20, 2017 at 16:13:11
geoffkait
 "Many of you graduating today from Acme Audio Engineering School will be going on to big things. The rest of you will become recording engineers."

 

RE: Cable Asylum Mission Statement, posted on October 21, 2017 at 07:44:21
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 cawson@onetel.com wrote:

"I always hesitate to post on this section of the forum in fear of the likely abuse from some inmates who populate it!"

That's nonsense. There is so little hostility in Cable Asylum, especially when folks show basic respect towards others based on good manners and common sense.

I visit Cable Asylum on a daily basis, and find it rare to see anything near what can be considered abuse from regular posters in the forum.

Regarding your post about the particular cable, I'm not familiar with the product other than it's a Chinese cable brand that seems to be known for warm sounding cables, from what I've gathered.

Another thing to note is Cable Asylum is one of the least "clubby" forums where a number of AA Inmates tend to dominate the threads. My participation in Cable Asylum is based on trying to share my insights and experiences, rather than create a "clubby" atmosphere. I have very few allies to speak of within the forum; I hold my own ground there.

Cheers, Duster

 

RE: Cable Asylum Mission Statement, posted on October 21, 2017 at 08:13:50
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2382
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Hi Duster

Thanks for your feedback on the Xindak cables.

However the only reason this particular thread was moved here to Prop Head is because it had (for the Cables moderators) a title they considered controversial -"How do cables affect the quality of sound?" Instead of allowing those in the know to answer the question, they immediately (before any reply was posted) assumed there would be howls from Cable inmates!

As a matter of curiosity take a look at this thread from High Efficiency. https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/17/179469.html. As I had received no reply from Cables, I placed an edited version of my question there.

Look at some of the replies. If anyone had suggested anything along the lines of the professionals who contributed, imaging the hiatus if they'd placed those postings in Cables! For example:

From a Manufacturer:
"The 12AWG zip cord I have is stranded copper. Standard copper wire .... Pay for it [costly cable] if you wish, but it really wont make any difference."

From a Professional
"high priced cables with exotic constructions can have very high capacitance. There is no benefit to high price cables. None."

The consensus of opinion to my question about a particular costly and exotic cable is that 16 to 12 AWG high purity copper zip wire will be absolutely as good as any cable, whatever the complexity of its construction, material or price.

What do you think? Would these views be tolerated on Cables and is that opinion broadly speaking accurate?

I'm not trying to be controversial or rude in any way, but contributors to Cables need to venture there as if walking on eggshells ;-)


 

RE: You sure stirred things up., posted on October 23, 2017 at 05:15:05
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2382
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Auditioning cables at home is often very difficult or impossible, especially speaker cables. Dealers don't keep them in stock because of the multitude of lengths and terminals required by customers. Dealers pass orders to manufacturers who supply from stock or, as often as not with speaker cables, make the cables to order.

 

"audio design is Ohm's law and common sense" - Peter Walker (Quad)_nT, posted on October 23, 2017 at 10:52:43
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7551
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 !
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

Haven't bought any cables in over 10 yrs., posted on October 23, 2017 at 14:05:11
YRY
Audiophile

Posts: 491
Location: So. California
Joined: April 4, 2002
 Guess things are different now. Or I just happened to live near a really good dealer (gone now).

 

Different cables pass different frequencies, posted on November 8, 2017 at 19:18:55
Jay Buridan
Audiophile

Posts: 10283
Location: Michigan
Joined: January 21, 2004
 Same goes for connectors.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

"Any scientific evidence to the contrary??", posted on November 9, 2017 at 04:26:29
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 No.

 

just a thought..., posted on November 9, 2017 at 14:21:42
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 It easy to visualize wiggles in the penetration of the signal on a loudspeaker cable... The high frequencies can't penetrate as far as the low frequency. They can't right? They have to oscillate back and forth 20000 times a second. If were vibration the displacement would be minuscule compare to a 500 Hz frequency signal.

But here is the rub - we are not talking vibration or even sound dimensions - we in the Maxwellian world of electrical current. The wavelength is FIVE miles for the high frequencies and 1000's of times longer for lower frequencies. Think of that in terms of a 10 foot long 12 Gauge speaker wire. It is little overwheming. The wavelenth @ 30kHz is over 5 million times the diameter of the wire!

Sorry, but speaker cables make no difference in the voltage signal from one end to the other - unless the have poor - very poor design.

It's up to you to decide whether they make a difference in the imagined performance your brain creates when listening to the piece of art we call a stereo recording.


"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

Uh,, posted on November 12, 2017 at 15:48:48
geoffkait
 It's quite possible you're confusing acoustic wavelengths with electromagnetic wavelengths but my head hurts too much to read the post again to be absolutely sure.

 

Care to share what the other 14 are. It might make it easier to answer the question, if that's what you want. , posted on November 13, 2017 at 12:09:18
viridian
 Nt

 

What cable bashing?, posted on November 13, 2017 at 12:19:48
viridian
 The school recommends zip cord. It's a cable just like any other. From the OP they don't say that cables do not have an effect on SQ, but of the 15 mystery things that have an effect on sound quality cables, in their opinion, had the least effect. Not no effect.

How sensitive are we getting here? Creating controversy where none exists. Cleansing the forum of posts that may seem the slightest bit distasteful.

There can be no education regarding the sound of cables and how they effect different systems if we don't engage with those that are seeking information.

Do your homework just doesn't cut it, IMHO.

 

RE: Uh,, posted on November 16, 2017 at 13:43:09
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 actually differentiating the two... Scales are really big for the Electromagnetic world. Much bigger than the diameter of wire.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

"How"? Donno. "Do they affect the sound?" Yes., posted on November 26, 2017 at 12:36:45
Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1884
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
  Since: December 14, 2012
 I'll leave the "how" question to others. For the question of whether cables affect a system's sound, the answer is a definite "yes," and that includes power cables.

In any fairly high-resolution system, hearing the difference between cables isn't hard. I've never heard dramatic differences, but have often heard changes that, if not dramatic, aren't subtle either.

Years ago I made up the Venhaus DIY power cables and have used them since. I've never tried an A/B comparison with stock power cables, so can't say if they helped or not. (I made them because they were a cheap, fun little project that might help and probably wouldn't hurt.)

I have interconnects from Cardas, Kimber, Blue Jeans, and the Venhaus DIY silver. The differences are pretty substantial.

I haven't had many speaker wires, but changes there *can* be almost dramatic. Going from zipcord to Blue Jeans speaker wire made a big difference in detail and openness (whatever that is - I know it when I heard it) even on a bedroom TV system with Braun L300's driven by an old BGW amp. Also, going from mono-wiring to bi-wiring can make a huge difference in low-level detail and harmonics, provided you can keep the two pairs of wire separate by an inch or more for most of the run. I found this even with Spica TC-50's, which were not (by far) the last word in resolution. I use anti-cables for speaker wire, so it's easy to keep the pairs separate - they are stiff and stay where you put them. And... it *is* a dramatic change if you tape the two pairs close together - it's almost like pulling a curtain across in front of the speakers. So if you are bi-wiring with the two pairs of wires in a common sheath, you might want to consider cutting that sheath away and separating the wire pairs. I even have an answer to the "why" part for bi-wiring: Vandersteen's explanation of the Hull effect, which you can find in any of their speaker manuals or on their web site.

It may be that power cables can change the sound as well, though I can't prove it. I found it interesting that Sean Magee and Steve Berkowitz, when starting the Bob Dylan bootleg series by listening to the master tapes on a Studer machine, auditioned different power cables for the deck, and, to their surprise, heard differences.

WW


"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

RE: How do cables affect affect the quality of sound?, posted on April 10, 2018 at 16:53:47
audioengr
Manufacturer

Posts: 6017
Location: Oregon
Joined: April 12, 2001
 Power cables are a lot like speaker cables, however the impedances of the sources are even lower.

Like speaker cables, the most important factors are minimizing resistance and inductance, but other things do come into play, including:

1) stranding effects - oxides
2) dielectric absorption
3) skin effect - gauge
4) inductive coupling
5) metallurgical effects - wire purity and composition

I made some measurements and some computer simulations comparing ROMEX to stranded copper power cords, generic.

The results show that the inductance of a 6-foot stranded copper power cord equals the same inductance as 20 feet of ROMEX. This I think is the main reason why more technical power cords sound better, but all of these other things factor in as well.

 

RE: How do cables affect affect the quality of sound?, posted on April 14, 2018 at 10:18:26
Inmate51
 "Any scientific evidence to the contrary??"

Ther are multiple ways to measure this.

I'd be happy to help your school's faculty learn how.

 

a tip of the hat, posted on April 19, 2018 at 03:27:47
beach cruiser
Audiophile

Posts: 7061
Location: so cal
Joined: September 24, 2003
 Glad to find a learned man to help me out.

I have been trying to provide some logic into these types of discussions for some time, but I didn't have as strong a position as you have provided.

my argument rested on the subjectiveness of hearing. Perception verses reality is not a settled concept, and it detracted from the mechanics of hearing that formed my position, since hearing is only subjective.

While factual, my position relied on perception in hearing. The weakness of this position is, of course, if you think you hear something, you do. This reliance on perception was also my proof of concept, the facts. kind of a bitch to win over a guy with money invested in product with , "look a it this way, it's subjective'

You have just given me an upgraded position that can be shown with established facts on paper, instead of pointing out that inside your head is doing it wrong. With hearing having only personal reality, one loops back to, if you hear it, that is only the brains perception of reality, there is no other, an internal world without error. Kind of like insisting that only one side of an optical illusion should be considered.

Thanks for giving me a stronger position. Not that I want to argue and be a big shot, or even be contentious, I just want to counter ignorance, when exposed to it, if possible. now I just have to understand what you are saying a little bit better, that stuff is brand new to me. My skills are low, but there is always hope. Now I can approach ignorance in two ways if needed. I just have to learn what I will be talking about.

 

personally, I wouldn't go around quoting that one. , posted on April 19, 2018 at 03:51:12
beach cruiser
Audiophile

Posts: 7061
Location: so cal
Joined: September 24, 2003
 Odd that a guy with a phd and president of an audio society would find a running stream of different flow rates an appropriate way to describe electron flow in a wire.

Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't every H2O molecule in that stream need to be traveling at the speed of light to make a correct comparison. Your statement implies electrons travel at different speeds in different situations. I think this is unknown to science, unless one gets to ultra low temps, where normal physics get weird.

I don't mind learning a better understanding, I am hardly a scientist and corrections are welcome.

 

RE: Uh,, posted on April 19, 2018 at 14:32:32
Inmate51
 So, you don't have anything to add, or to disagree with.

Have I got that right?

 

RE: "audio design is Ohm's law and common sense" - Peter Walker (Quad)_nT, posted on September 15, 2018 at 11:15:31
audioengr
Manufacturer

Posts: 6017
Location: Oregon
Joined: April 12, 2001
 I wish it were that simple. Addressing macroeffects like L, R, C and dielectric absorption are only the first layer of the onion.

To achieve the best performance in an analog cable, one must also take into account the micro-effects at the molecular level in the metals. If you don't do this, you will end up with a mediocre cable at best.

Steve N.

 

RE: "audio design is Ohm's law and common sense" - Peter Walker (Quad)_nT, posted on September 26, 2018 at 20:10:48
johndyson10
Audiophile

Posts: 71
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: October 17, 2017
 For the first order (most: 99.99% of audio needs), simple transmission line analysis is adequate -- when it is really needed, most of the time not even that -- if you want, you can take the smallest dialectric effect if you want -- no biggie. If you really want to get into the mud and be accurate far beyond any audio need, just use an EM analysis program (akin to the now rather accurate antenna analysis programs) as used by the people who REALLY need to worry about the effects, as they are first order for them -- the RF people. If you want to get outside of lumped components, and don't even think that distributed components are good enough, just use EM analysis. It is done all of the time, and it isn't any kind of 'black magic', and no sophistry in terminology needed.
After you do the fully accurate EM analysis, you'll mostly go back to the lumped or at worst, a distributed componeent analysis for audio.
It is easy (well, really tedious) and accurate enough that it is used in the 100's of GHz (which is certainly good enough for audio.) In fact, at 100's of GHz, lumped compoments are mostly not useful.
So, whenever one hears that something tricky or sophisticated needs to be done, simply ask those who are truly knowledgeable to show you on their EM analysis program results. Not really a big deal for people who really have to do such things. I used to use such programs for when I needed them (no magic for antennas, for exmaple, like where closed formed solutions almost needed tobe used in the old days) They were usually accurate enough, but it is really nice to have some modeling of the edge & skin effects when at 100's of Mhz or higher. Yes, silver plating of wiring really does help when at RF -- not so much at audio.

John Dyson

 

RE: personally, I wouldn't go around quoting that one. , posted on October 3, 2018 at 23:40:32
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 i think electrons DO travel at a speed below the speed of light in a conductor.

Light does some weird stuff, too, based on the index of refraction of whatever.

The key to the speed of light as advertised is 'In A Vacuum'.
Too much is never enough

 

News flash!, posted on October 4, 2018 at 09:38:38
geoffkait
 Electrons don't actually travel in a conductor, or travel extremely slowly. In aan AC CIRCUIT they travel to and fro at slow speed so net velocity is zero. And electrons are not the signal. Electrons are only the charge carrier. I'm embarrassed to even have to say that.

 

Don't really know, but here is my suspicion, posted on October 4, 2018 at 16:44:48
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15167
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 It's a very complicated waveform going across. A whole bunch of things can influence it. It is complicated because it spans orders of magnitude, from 20Hz-50KHz, possibly. CD's may cutoff at a particular frequency, but then there will be noise products that are much higher in frequency as well. Even 20Khz is quite a task. Anything you calculate for the wire is good for a particular frequency or narrow band of frequencies.

IMO.

It is best to buy cables commensurate with the cost of your system components, no more, no less.

 

RE: News flash!, posted on October 27, 2018 at 20:30:18
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I'm going off memory (fallible) here and call speed of electricity in copper maybe 1% the speed of light while the electromagnetic wave travels faster.

And yes, to the extent that the waveform is perfectly symmetrical + and -, electrons will have zero net velocity.

I support your being embarrased, too, but not for the reasons you cite.

Have fun, above all.

Too much is never enough

 

RE: How do cables affect affect the quality of sound?, posted on May 28, 2020 at 21:05:27
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Do you think anything of BiMetalic effects on extremely low voltage lines......???
I'm thinking specifically about phono runs where even a fraction of a MV from dissimilar metals producing a current could be a LOT.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: How do cables affect affect the quality of sound?, posted on June 14, 2020 at 15:31:35
jrlaudio
Industry Professional

Posts: 76
Location: New York
Joined: November 2, 2012
 A very loaded question when dealing with audiophileology.

However, a few points to start out with. Electrons do not flow, current does. Electrons are the "carrier", and many factors determine how fast electrons pass current. The most common is propagation factor, a spec you will never see in audiophile speaker cable spec sheets. There are few cables (if any) that can propagate signals at 100% of C. If they claim to be able to it's BS, since that claim would defy practical physics and reality. The only exception would be a superconductor at or near a temperature of absolute zero.

In terms of "live sound" applications the criteria for speaker cabling is very different. There are the issues of weight and how that effects trucking costs. There is also the issue of cost, specifically the cost of copper vs losses.

Gauge of speaker cable is mentioned due the negative effects to damping factor over long lengths of small gauge wire. There are minimums before a system has useless low-frequency slew rates. So the specification of speaker cable in a sound reinforcement system and what the value is, is not simply a matter of sound quality.

Cables can effect the sound quality, however not in the manner often touted by audiophiles and people marketing to audiophiles. Most times when cables effect sound it is because they are marginal in there basic electrical characteristics, or "tailored" to produce a particular subjective sound quality. Most audiophile cables fall into the latter category if there is noticeable change in sound between different types. Some are "bright", some are "warm", some have a pronounced mid-range. All are "tailored" for those preferences. Are they accurate? That's where the debate and arguing tends to happen.

In a perfect world a cable should simply pass audio, not influence it or change it. To do so is the definition of distortion (i.e.: the act of twisting or altering something out of its true, natural, or original state). However, that being said, there is something to the idea that people prefer to tailor their system sound to what they like to hear. Is it accurate to the source material? ... Not really, but for many that's not important. Now for me ... I tend to go with neutral everything. If any gear changes the sound of a recording I know because I was the engineer in the studio making it, then I don't want it ... whatever it is. This way I know on my system other recordings I didn't engineer are most likely sounding as was intended. But that's me.

 

RE: How do cables affect the quality of sound?, posted on August 7, 2020 at 05:41:24
geoffkait
 If you accept listening tests as scientific evidence, you know, empirical evidence, then yes, there's evidence that cables affect the sound. Why different materials for the conductor and the dielectric affect the sound so much is a little unclear, the direction of the cable, elevating cables, demagnetizing cables, deionizing cables, these are all unclear as to why they work, for that matter it's quite unclear what the signal in cables actually is, we can't seem to find any agreement.

 

RE: How do cables affect affect the quality of sound?, posted on August 21, 2023 at 22:54:56
ytb402
Industry Professional

Posts: 11
Location: Utah
Joined: August 19, 2023
Contributor
  Since: August 19, 2023
 Cables affect audio signals, but crossover circuits do more harm to the audio signal.
For better FIDELITY stop using crossover circuits.

Crossover circuits are single sided not a balanced system.
Inductors and capacitors malign the audio signals FIDELITY

Any non-crossover circuit sounds better.

Will post some circuits for you to try.

CJL

 

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