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Newbie question

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Posted on April 2, 2021 at 11:33:08
MaggiesAndCats
Audiophile

Posts: 695
Joined: August 31, 2009
Contributor
  Since:
July 16, 2010
Greetings All!

I am new to streaming, having started several weeks ago. Well, I suppose it started months ago when I got pair of planar headphones, then a headphone amp, and then an external DAC, then using the external DAC instead of the DAC in the CD player in my "big" system... I'm sure you all have "been there, done that" :).

I've been streaming Amazon Music HD through a laptop, connecting to the external DAC using USB. I got a 4 month trial of Amazon Music Unlimited and a 1 month trial of HD. So far I'm impressed with the sound quality of both the HD and Ultra HD offerings.

So, here's the question: Why is the soundstage different when using 2 different laptop PC's? The sound quality is the same, near as I can tell, but the soundstage collapses when using my laptop vs. using my wife's laptop. I have compared playing the same track on CD through the CD player, through the PCs, and streaming. The soundstage collapses with my PC and is fine with hers in all cases. My laptop is around 8 - 10 years old, my wife's laptop is around 3 years old. Both are running Windows 10. The settings for the PC sound and Amazon Music are the same, both using the same USB cable and DAC, and both connect to the modem using the same ethernet cable.

My understanding is that using the USB to the external DAC bypasses the laptop soundcard. Is that truly the case? Could it be a difference in USB chipsets? Could it be I'm delusional? (I already know the answer to that...) This isn't really a big deal as my wonderful wife is very good at indulging my audio hobby. However, I'd still like to know for my understanding of streaming hardware and software.

Regards,

Steve

 

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RE: Newbie question, posted on April 2, 2021 at 13:43:17
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23874
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
January 29, 2004
I don't know the answer to your question, but I don't like using a computer to play music. Consequently, I bought a FiiO DSD player and I load my digital music files onto a micro SD memory card that plugs into my FiiO player. I get a fantastic soundstage with excellent sound quality.

Good luck!
John Elison

 

Could be a bunch of reasons, posted on April 2, 2021 at 15:13:18
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15154
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
Computers have improved with better implementations, drawing less power, etc. It could be power line noise or it could be a driver setting. Check out the settings. I wasn't getting any sound at all and then I realize that when the computer is updated they usually put higher quality default settings, which are great if your DAC can handle it and is, maybe, why it sounds better on the newer laptop.

 

RE: Newbie question, posted on April 2, 2021 at 21:07:57
PAR
Audiophile

Posts: 1732
Location: South London, UK
Joined: June 4, 2019
Amazon HD does not let the user initiate a WASAPI or ASIO session. That means that the output from Amazon is fed through the Win 10 sound mixer and the output via USB to your DAC may not be bit perfect as the sound mixer will output only whatever resolution it is set at. Everything will be either upsampled or downsampled to that rate unless by chance the file format and the setting coincide. If the sound setting on your PC and your wife's PC is different then the sound will be different.

Unfortunately the above means that if you want bit perfect replay you will need to manually reset the Win10 sound mixer every time the incoming file resolution changes. This is not an issue with other streaming services such as Qobuz where their desktop player allows you to open a WASAPI or ASIO session which then bypasses the sound mixer.

To check the sound mixer setting on the two PCs go to Settings/System/Sound Control Panel/Properties/Advanced.


"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

 

RE: Newbie question, posted on April 2, 2021 at 21:09:55
Windows sound settings can have an audible effect even when streaming to an external dac.

And those settings could be different between the two computers.

And they can even influence the bit rate sent to the external dac.


Something to check anyway...

 

RE: Newbie question, posted on April 4, 2021 at 13:28:32
MaggiesAndCats
Audiophile

Posts: 695
Joined: August 31, 2009
Contributor
  Since:
July 16, 2010
Thanks John. I'm curious as to why you don't like using a computer to play music. they're generally not optimized for that purpose, but the sound I have been getting streaming through the laptop is every bit as good (no pun intended...) as when using my CD player.

I looked at the device you use and I would consider it if I switched to just using headphones. Although, I am enjoying having 10's of millions of songs at my fingertips when streaming... While my wife would like the use the room where my system is for a spare bedroom, it hasn't gotten to the point of ditching speakers for headphones yet.

Regards,

Steve

 

RE: Could be a bunch of reasons, posted on April 4, 2021 at 13:35:20
MaggiesAndCats
Audiophile

Posts: 695
Joined: August 31, 2009
Contributor
  Since:
July 16, 2010
Thanks for the input. I have been using the laptops unplugged, just using the battery, so I would expect that to take power line noise out of the equation.

I checked to make sure the drivers are the latest versions and took pictures of the screens to make sure I have all of the settings the same. The laptop with the best soundstage is running Windows 64 bit, while the other has Windows 32 bit. I've been able to play Ultra HD tracks on both, so it seems the Schiit Modi 3+ is up to the task.

Regards,

Steve

 

RE: Newbie question, posted on April 4, 2021 at 13:56:58
MaggiesAndCats
Audiophile

Posts: 695
Joined: August 31, 2009
Contributor
  Since:
July 16, 2010
Thanks for the response. I had gone into the advanced settings and set both to studio quality, 32 bit, 48000 Hz. For the Schiit Modi 3+ DAC I checked the box in the properties to allow the application to take exclusive control of the device, although I can't say I know what that means...

Since playing the same CD though both laptops has the same effect as streaming, i.e. collapsed soundstage, I'm thinking I've missed something else in the sound mixer setup that is independent of the Amazon HD app. I don't know if it makes a difference, but the laptop with the good soundstage is running Win 64 bit, while the other is running Win 32 bit.

I'll have to check out what Qobuz offers as far as music, subscription rates, etc.

Regards,

Steve

 

RE: Newbie question, posted on April 4, 2021 at 13:59:48
MaggiesAndCats
Audiophile

Posts: 695
Joined: August 31, 2009
Contributor
  Since:
July 16, 2010
Thank for the feedback. I took pictures of the sound settings each step of the way to try and get them to be identical. Of course, it's always (more than) possible I missed something and need to repeat the process.

Regards,

Steve

 

RE: Newbie question, posted on April 4, 2021 at 15:15:34
PAR
Audiophile

Posts: 1732
Location: South London, UK
Joined: June 4, 2019
" set both to studio quality, 32 bit, 48000 Hz. "


The setting has to match the capabilities of your DAC. I understand that you have a Schitt Modi 3+. This is not a 32 bit DAC.You need to set the PC to a 24 bit depth setting. What about sample rate? If you have it set to 48 kHz this means that your computer is upsampling all 44.1 kHz tracks ( the most common ) to 48 kH and that all higher rates are being downsampled to 48 kHz even though your DAC is capable of handling Amazon Ultra HD tracks <192kHz.

There are many other aspects to account for in streaming from a PC including the USB connection itself involving both the cable and ways of dealing with parasitic electrical noise generated by the computer.

I think that you need to study this a bit and I would highly recommend looking at the resource linked below which is packed with useful information for newbies.



"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

 

RE: Newbie question, posted on April 4, 2021 at 19:00:55
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23874
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
January 29, 2004
I prefer speakers to headphones. I listen to headphones late at night so I don't disturb my wife. Most of the time I listen to speakers. I connect my FiiO M15 DSD player/streamer to my preamp and listen through my main stereo system. I prefer using a FiiO M15 to using a computer. I like to have all my music in the palm of my hand rather than having to get up and use the keyboard on my computer to select music files.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

USB standards, posted on April 4, 2021 at 23:39:52
Daveslater
Audiophile

Posts: 1044
Location: UK
Joined: June 11, 2003
Most likely your 10 year old laptop is USB1 or 1,1 your wifes 3 year old is USB 2.0


Determine the version of USB ports on your computer

Many computer manufacturers do not clearly mark USB port versions. Use the Device Manager to determine if your computer has USB 1.1, 2.0, or 3.0 ports:

Open the Device Manager.
In the "Device Manager" window, click the + (plus sign) next to Universal Serial Bus controllers. You will see a list of the USB ports installed on your computer.
If your USB port name contains "Universal Host", your port is version 1.1.
If the port name contains both "Universal Host" and "Enhanced Host", your port is version 2.0.
If the port name contains "USB 3.0", your port is version 3.0.

 

RE: Newbie question, posted on April 5, 2021 at 10:13:56
MaggiesAndCats
Audiophile

Posts: 695
Joined: August 31, 2009
Contributor
  Since:
July 16, 2010
Thanks, I'm sure I have a lot to learn and the website you linked looks good.

Regards,

Steve

 

RE: USB standards, posted on April 5, 2021 at 10:19:40
MaggiesAndCats
Audiophile

Posts: 695
Joined: August 31, 2009
Contributor
  Since:
July 16, 2010
Good suggestion. I had checked that when looking at the setups and they are both USB 2.0.

Regards,

Steve

 

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