Computer Audio Asylum

Music servers and other computer based digital audio technologies.

Return to Computer Audio Asylum

Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

Mini/Roon/Nucleus/NUC....... A Fork In The Road

193.56.116.115
Posted on March 6, 2021 at 19:21:35
Simon Templar
Audiophile

Posts: 605
Location: Infinite Rider On The Big Dogma
Joined: November 9, 1999
My venerable Mini 5,2 (mid-2011 i5) server has been getting long in the tooth of late. Now, it has decided to start powering itself down after an hour or so every session. No warning...just shutting down out of the blue.
For awhile I thought perhaps it was a USB cable problem (e.g. shielding, etc), but the Console system.log seems to indicate otherwise.

Perhaps it is time to move on.

So, I've been shopping M1 minis, Nuclei, or DIY equivalents. I spoke to someone from Roon a few days back about OSX Roon Core s/w. While I know 1.8 will run (albeit under rosetta) on the M1's....we cannot depend upon that forever. I asked about the prospect of any coming M1-native revs....and was told "I wish I had a timeline to share on if and if so when this will be available."

"I wish I had a timeline to share on if and if so when...." Didn't even try to spin the matter. Just 'IF".

Perhaps I am reading too much into this, but I'd hate to invest in another Mini and have Roon abandon their software in a year or so. Yes I know...there are plenty of other options. And they may indeed carry the day when it comes down to it.

But......Which way would YOU go?


....sT

 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
Seeing lots of smallgreencomputer.com recently nt, posted on March 6, 2021 at 19:51:54
Valva Actual
Audiophile

Posts: 183
Location: PNW, USA
Joined: December 19, 2009
 nt no text nt

 

I figured..., posted on March 7, 2021 at 08:21:32
mlsstl
Audiophile

Posts: 1079
Location: Midwest
Joined: September 1, 2015
 ... The Saint would already know the answer!

He always did in the movies. ;-)

 

RE: Mini/Roon/Nucleus/NUC....... A Fork In The Road, posted on March 7, 2021 at 08:23:31
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18285
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 I'd go the Raspberry Pi route.... You can invest less than $100 and it will probably sound better than what you currently are doing.... If you don't have a NAS for your current files, you can get an inexpensive one to run Roon and store your files.

If you like it, you can Tweak it with better Power Supplies, etc.

It's what I use in my Main System... Not looking for a more expensive solution, as it won't improve anything.




 

I wouldn't worry about it as there are so many options..., posted on March 7, 2021 at 13:46:39
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 - A little Intel NUC PC or similar tiny form factor PC from Lenovo or HP will do perfectly fine.... running Windoze or Linux. In other words, run it on any decent PC.

- The M1 Mac Mini will work fine with Roon. If it ever doesn't, repurpose it for daily tasks. It's a real screamer for the price.

- Unless your music library is large, Roon Core runs perfectly fine on a modest Intel/AMD based NAS. All of my music resides on my 2-bay Synology DS-718+ NAS and streams to a couple cheap Raspberry Pi or my Sonore microRendu.

What I wouldn't do:

- Buy into the hype that you need a high-end dedicated music server from an audiophile approved source including the Roon Nucleus and their clones. Yes, I've seen Nucleus clones on Audiogon going for $2500 - $3000. I wouldn't go this route but hey, that's just my opinion.



 

I don't think . . ., posted on March 7, 2021 at 15:00:27
tlea
Audiophile

Posts: 579
Location: New Orleans
Joined: January 20, 2002
Contributor
  Since: October 29, 2006
 . . . you can run Roon Core on a Pi.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

To the OP: I agree with others in this thread that you don't need a single-use appliance like Nucleus or Sonic Orbiter. I use a MacMini dedicated as a music server, knowing that I can repurpose it if I want or need to. Now that the new models are out, the older ones are a bargain.

Once you have that working, you can add endpoints as you need them, such as Raspberry Pi or other streamers. Or you can stream through the same source as you are running the Core on. Roon recommends against that but they are evasive as to why. Works fine for me.





. . . in theory, practice and theory are the same; in practice, they are different . . .

 

RE: I don't think . . ., posted on March 7, 2021 at 15:13:39
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18285
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 I think you're correct, that is why I mentioned a NAS to run Roon and then stream with a RPi.



 

Roon on NAS, posted on March 7, 2021 at 15:45:11
tlea
Audiophile

Posts: 579
Location: New Orleans
Joined: January 20, 2002
Contributor
  Since: October 29, 2006
 Got it. I should read more closely.

I suppose "inexpensive" is a relative thing, but the OP should be aware that Roon will not run on just any garden-variety NAS. Roon Server has a light footprint but does take some muscle, especially if your library is large or complex. I have an older Synology 5 bay NAS DS1512+ with an Intel Atom processor and 4MB RAM. It will run Plex and other media servers but chokes on Roon.



. . . in theory, practice and theory are the same; in practice, they are different . . .

 

Yes, I don't know much about Roon .................., posted on March 7, 2021 at 15:49:42
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18285
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 I just tried a few times running on my Powerful Windows PC......It worked OK, but it wasn't for me...



 

RE: Mini/Roon/Nucleus/NUC....... A Fork In The Road, posted on March 8, 2021 at 05:34:27
zacster
Audiophile

Posts: 2179
Location: NYC
Joined: November 22, 2003
 I would think an M1 Mini would be total overkill for the application. These things outperform Mac Pros in some tasks. Apple should still have some of the prior Intel versions of these for cheap that'll serve the purpose.

That said, I still don't get Roon. I don't have a large library, tiny in fact, but use Qobuz for all of my music. I don't need a piece of expensive proprietary software running to play that. I never stored my CDs on a server nor tried to digitize my LPs so maybe that's why I never thought Roon was useful. At this point though I've basically bypassed all that with streaming in hi-res. Roon is just needlessly complex for that.

 

RE: Roon on NAS, posted on March 8, 2021 at 07:26:58
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 - I've been running Roon Core on my 2-bay Synology DS718+ NAS for a couple years now. It has a modest Intel Celeron quad-core CPU and 6 GB of RAM with 2 4TB spinning disks - and no SSDs. Pretty much a CPU/Disk configuration that Roon warns against.

- Prior to the NAS I had Roon on my 2012 Mac Mini 2.6GHz i7 quad-core with two SSD and 16GB of RAM.

If I were running heavy duty DSP and had a large library I would place Roon back on the Mac Mini. I don't run DSP except for the very occasional parametric EQ and my library is about 1000 albums. In this case, Roon runs fine on the low end NAS.



 

RE: Mini/Roon/Nucleus/NUC....... A Fork In The Road, posted on March 8, 2021 at 07:52:30
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 I think the concern here is if Apple drops support for Rosetta 2 in the future the M1 chip will not run Intel based apps at all. And will Roon Labs port Roon to run natively on M1 ??

With Apple's Rosetta 2 emulation software, apps compiled for Intel are swiftly translated to run on the ARM based M1 chip. But Rosetta is meant to be a temporary solution giving serious developers time to port their code to run natively on M1.

Benchmarks and real world apps for the Intel CPU tested under Rosetta 2 emulation on M1 have proven to run faster on M1 vs natively on Intel chips. M1 is THAT fast!

Apple used Rosetta emulation technology 15 years ago when they made the transition from Power PC to Intel. Now Rosetta 2 is helping with the transition from Intel to Apple's M1.

P.S. Apple still sells Intel based Macs along side their M1 but the Intel versions are more expensive and less performant.



 

I Could Not Have Re-stated The Matter Better Myself.......plus...., posted on March 8, 2021 at 14:17:29
Simon Templar
Audiophile

Posts: 605
Location: Infinite Rider On The Big Dogma
Joined: November 9, 1999
 Abe has precisely re-stated the question.

And, for those who have forgotten (or weren't involved enough in such things) when Rosetta 1 came along 15 or 20 years ago.... Apple supported it for barely 2 years and then dropped support for it so quickly that many of us were left out in the cold and scrambling. There is precious little indication that they will not do the same again this time around. Especially with Timmy shut-up-and-buy-an-iPhone Cook now at the helm.

As for the remaining Intel machines.... first, compatibility works both ways. You may get a real deal on it, but part of the reason for that is that software (and updates) will very soon all become M1 native and your nice cheap Intel machine will be abandoned sooner than you think. (So...is it really such a deal?)

Second..... the 2018 Intel (current model) Minis are fairly loud in very quiet rooms such as my music room, whereas the M1's have much quieter mag-lev fans and are of significantly lower power consumption which therefore reduces the heat generated and need for the fan in the first place.

And, for those who mentioned library size....I'm currently running somewhere in the neighbourhood of 7000-9000 titles. (haven't counted lately)

.....sT

 

RE: Mini/Roon/Nucleus/NUC....... A Fork In The Road, posted on March 8, 2021 at 19:26:23
triodesteve
Audiophile

Posts: 803
Location: Walla Walla Washington
Joined: September 4, 2001
 I've use a small green computer for roon for what seems like forever. Its small and quiet and Roon is all it does. I am turning a cheap used NUC into a Roon ROCK server now and its even cheaper and smaller. I am no computer engineer and have used the many how-to's to do it pretty easily.

Any Mac computer is overkill. And there is no reason to use an OS that is built to do many things when all your need is a simple appliance to do one thing.

 

RE: I Could Not Have Re-stated The Matter Better Myself.......plus...., posted on March 8, 2021 at 19:31:11
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 "when Rosetta 1 came along 15 or 20 years ago.... Apple supported it for barely 2 years and then dropped support for it so quickly that many of us were left out in the cold and scrambling."

Two years warning isn't exactly abrupt. Serious developers who intend to support the transition will get their code ported. Laggards will procrastinate, scream bloody murder and unjustly blame Apple for their customer's predicament.

Your final question in your original post was,

"But......Which way would YOU go?"

- Personally, I would buy a new M1 Mac Mini knowing that it is far superior to anything available today in it's price class. Enjoy Roon on it now and see how this plays out.

- Buy a small form factor Intel PC later IF Roon decides not to port their software to run natively on M1. Then repurpose the M1 Mini for something else. That would be my choice.

- If budget is an issue you can save by configuring certain Intel NUC boxes to your needs.

As for small form factor PC's, there are several available. I happen to like Lenovo and HP.... but don't expect bargain prices. Many people don't realize that these machines cost as much as the Intel based Mac Mini once they're optioned up to match what you get standard in the Mini. With the new M1 Mini, it's no contest. There's no Intel PC in the same price class that comes close to the M1 Mini in performance.


 

RE: Mini/Roon/Nucleus/NUC....... A Fork In The Road, posted on March 10, 2021 at 02:21:05
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6581
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
 Exactly! Well stated.

 

RE: Mini/Roon/Nucleus/NUC....... A Fork In The Road, posted on March 10, 2021 at 08:16:47
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 "And there is no reason to use an OS that is built to do many things when all your need is a simple appliance to do one thing."

No reason to but no detrimental effects in doing so with minor optimization.

However, if you believe in a minimalist OS, just stream to a network end-point like the Raspberry Pi or commercial network streamer running a minimalist OS.

I run DietPi on my DIY Raspberry Pi streamers. It is extremely lightweight and highly optimized for audio. Similarly, Sonic Orbiter OS on the microRendu is dedicated to audio.




 

Roon ROCK NUC Info, posted on March 17, 2021 at 13:45:57
creativepart
Audiophile

Posts: 1898
Location: Spring Branch, Texas
Joined: March 1, 2004
 John Darko recently did a video and blog post on getting a cheap Intel NUC and setting up a Roon ROCK server. He compared it to his Roon Nucleus and said there was no difference in sound or usability. Just $1,700 cheaper.

Darko Video and Blog post

Which was followed by:

Darko's Followup Video and Blog post


ROON ROCK install guide


READ THIS BEFORE BUYING A NUC for ROON ROCK

Intel NUC Kit NUC8i5BEH


Crucial DDR4 16GB RAM


Samsung MZ-V7S500BW SSD 970 EVO Plus 500GB M.2 Internal NVMe SSD


THESE ARE NOT AFFILIATE LINKS

 

UPDATE ...a solution to the problem , posted on March 25, 2021 at 00:13:12
Simon Templar
Audiophile

Posts: 605
Location: Infinite Rider On The Big Dogma
Joined: November 9, 1999
 My phantom Shutdown problem has been solved. I'll not elaborate on the matter as my pride prevents such confessions.

SO....the 2011 Mini lives on!

.....And *I* can sit back and wait to see if Roon will realize their need to embrace the ARM M1 world.



....and so it goes.



....sT

 

Please.... Curious minds want to know...., posted on April 7, 2021 at 10:58:32
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 ...to benefit others. We've all been there.

Was it a scheduled shutdown issue, energy saver setting, something even stupid-er ;-) No shame.


 

Page processed in 0.030 seconds.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]