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UpTone new ISO REGEN ($325) "borrows" concept from Intona ?

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Posted on April 24, 2017 at 21:21:16
AbeCollins
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Hmm, a new and improved (and almost 2x the price) "ISO" REGEN from UpTone uses a semiconductor chip for USB galvanic isolation. While they use a different chip than the Intona the concept is the same.... USB isolation via silicon chip.

I sold my original UpTone REGEN long ago when I decided the Intona produced a more significant sonic improvement in my system. It looks like the folks at UpTone may have read about the benefits of the Intona for USB galvanic isolation and decided to roll their own in the new and improved "ISO REGEN" ??

UpTone ISO REGEN, USB galvanic isolation - including the "split" input/output PCB


Intona, USB galvanic isolation - input/output "split" PCB




 

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RE: UpTone new ISO REGEN ($325) "borrows" concept from Intona ?, posted on April 24, 2017 at 23:07:19
fmak
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 Get this right for once. The concept has not been borrowed; it is well established practice for noisy computers attached to the mains and downstream equipment.

Just because yopu use a noisy computer system with a fan doesn't make the Regen useless for others. It may be the case for you whereby the Itona's isolation helps to improve your system.

The pictures you posted are already on the web and you can help AA financially by not wasting storage space and bandwidth and by posting some elements of truth rather than speculation and repitation.




 

As usual, you missed the point again....., posted on April 24, 2017 at 23:51:42
AbeCollins
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 "The concept has not been borrowed; it is well established practice for noisy computers attached to the mains and downstream equipment."

The point was that UpTone decided to use a silicon chip for the isolation design. A design choice that Intona made years ago. Comprende? Probably not.

"Just because yopu use a noisy computer system with a fan doesn't make the Regen useless for others."

What's a "yopu"? No I don't use a noisy computer system, not compared to your 39-Lb Dell beast with massive blowers anyway!

And I never said the REGEN was useless for others. I said I found the Intona to be more effective in my system. And some others here in the Asylum have experienced the same in their systems when switching from the REGEN to the Intona.

"The pictures you posted are already on the web and you can help AA financially by not wasting storage space and bandwidth..."

I've been helping AA financially for well over a decade. You haven't contributed a dime.

No kidding those pictures are already "on the web" because I put them there! But they do not waste storage space or have any financial impact to the Asylum. Those photos are stored on MY webhosting server and are simply "embedded" in the Asylum webpage.

Hint: Right-Click on the image, now "copy image address" or "copy image location". Paste it into your web browser URL field. Where is the imaging coming from? It's not taking up storage space on AA.

Comprende? Probably not.



 

RE: As usual, you betray, posted on April 24, 2017 at 23:54:23
fmak
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 ignorance of audio computing

 

RE: As usual, you betray, posted on April 25, 2017 at 00:01:30
AbeCollins
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ignorance of all computing.


 

RE: As usual, you betray, posted on April 25, 2017 at 05:35:27
E-Stat
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 He wouldn't recognize an imgsrc if it fmaked him in the face. :)

 

do you have pics of the other side of the boards? nt, posted on April 25, 2017 at 06:41:41
G Squared
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 .
Gsquared

 

:-) /n, posted on April 25, 2017 at 08:02:01
Ivan303
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 n


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: do you have pics of the other side of the boards? nt, posted on April 25, 2017 at 08:06:30
AbeCollins
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I do not.

- The Intona PCB photo was taken with the top cover off but with the board still mounted to the bottom half of the enclosure.

- I grabbed the ISO REGEN photo from the UpTone website and resized it before FTP-ing it up to my webhosting server.


 

:-) /n, posted on April 25, 2017 at 08:07:07
AbeCollins
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 .

 

RE: do you have pics of the other side of the boards? nt, posted on April 25, 2017 at 11:24:17
G Squared
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 I was wondering if the same ground plane is on both sides of the barrier.
Gsquared

 

UltraCap™ LPS-1 ($395) + ISO REGEN ($325) + USB/Power Cords = )$1K, posted on April 25, 2017 at 14:47:45
Dynobot
 And thats just on peripherals.

Can't use a lowly $40 RPi with all that...so might as well get the mRu for another $650!!

Pushing $2k

Heavy price to listen to mp3 over the Internet.

 

RE: UltraCap™ LPS-1 ($395) + ISO REGEN ($325) + USB/Power Cords = )$1K, posted on April 25, 2017 at 15:08:31
Cut-Throat
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 And I can admit, that I probably could not hear a difference in Power Supplies. IOW - I would not put up any of MY MONEY in a Controlled Blind Test of Power Supplies.



 

Don't know if you saw my DC cord post?, posted on April 25, 2017 at 15:32:07
E-Stat
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 John Swenson posted a truly inexpensive recipe for the DC side over at CA.

Here's the post that contains a link.

I spent $2.87 on 8' of Canare cable shipped free - Amazon had ten pack of the terminal based plugs JS used for another three bucks.

 

RE: UpTone new ISO REGEN ($325) "borrows" concept from Intona ?, posted on April 25, 2017 at 23:27:15
internethandle
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Posts: 42
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 Well, a few things:

1) Before the Intona, or, for that matter, any of these USB re-clockers/hubs/what have you, galvanic isolation was commonly achieved via ADuM4160 chip-based dongles, which fell out of favor because they could not handle full speed USB 2.0 audio and therefore would not work with most DACs with an asynchronous protocol (meaning the vast majority post-2010 or so, as far as I know).

2) My understanding was that the Intona achieved isolation not from a single chip but from a combination of a FPGA and what Intona calls "RF type isolators," which basically means a few pieces of silicon, as far as I can tell, so technically chips, I suppose.

That being said, yes, I think the popularity of the Intona spurred Uptone to search for a way to incorporate galvanic isolation into their re-design/upgrade of the Regen. The same appears to be true for iFi with the upcoming "iGalvanic 3.0" (and, I'm sure, a host of other devices as of yet unannounced).

 

RE: UpTone new ISO REGEN ($325) "borrows" concept from Intona ?, posted on April 26, 2017 at 03:35:09
fmak
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 This is a post that summarises the situation rather than having the aim of discrediting those offering a new product either thru ignorance or as a deliberate act (as in the first post which is purely based on personal experience that neglects posts by many others to the contrary)

 

RE: UpTone new ISO REGEN ($325) "borrows" concept from Intona ?, posted on April 26, 2017 at 07:58:55
AbeCollins
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 According to Digi-Key the Si866x (used by Intona) are General Purpose Digital Isolators. Theory of operation involves RF modulation over a silicon barrier.

Per Silicon Labs literature:

Silicon Lab's family of ultra-low-power digital isolators are CMOS devices offering substantial data rate, propagation delay, power, size, reliability, and external BOM advantages over legacy isolation technologies. The operating parameters of these products remain stable across wide temperature ranges and throughout device service life for ease of design and highly uniform performance. All device versions have Schmitt trigger inputs for high noise immunity and only require VDD bypass capacitors. Data rates up to 150 Mbps are supported, and all devices achieve propagation delays of less than 10 ns. Ordering options include a choice of isolation ratings (2.5, 3.75 and 5 kV) and a selectable fail-safe operating mode to control the default output state during power loss. All products >1 kV RMS are safety certified by UL, CSA, VDE, and CQC, and products in wide-body packages support reinforced insulation withstanding up to 5 kV RMS.

I couldn't find any information on the Silanna ICE08USB chip used by UpTone except for a press release by Silanna dated October 2015. So this chip wasn't available when Intona designed their USB isolator. The chip in the UpTone doesn't appear to be readily available through the usual component distributors. Perhaps its still too new and only available in smaller quantities. I don't know.

"I think the popularity of the Intona spurred Uptone to search for a way to incorporate galvanic isolation into their re-design/upgrade of the Regen."

I agree. And now that a single chip is available making it easier to accomplish USB isolation at higher data rates, we should see more of these USB isolation devices hit the market from the usual small audio companies.



 

RE: UpTone new ISO REGEN ($325) "borrows" concept from Intona ?, posted on April 26, 2017 at 10:21:45
el34eh@yahoo.com
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Posts: 1933
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I can't say which direction I'll be going with these types of devices?, as I'm still awaiting the iFi Audio iGalvanic 3.0 to make it onto the market.

But for the money, I think that both are going to turn heads with their overall preformance used solely, or in tandem with my JCAT USB Isolator........, let the party begin.

 

RE: UpTone new ISO REGEN ($325) "borrows" concept from Intona ?, posted on April 26, 2017 at 16:03:05
AbeCollins
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It's going to be interesting. I wonder if iFi will be using the same single chip USB galvanic isolation solution as UpTone. Isn't JCAT just a repackaging of the Intona in a nicer case? Maybe there's more to it.



 

RE: UpTone new ISO REGEN ($325) "borrows" concept from Intona ?, posted on April 26, 2017 at 17:00:08
Maxxwire1
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Yes Abe, the JCAT USB Isolator is indeed the industrial version of the Intona housed in an aluminum casing. For the last 6 months the JCAT USB Isolator placed between my mid 2016 i7 3.0G Hz, 16GB RAM, 256GB PCIe SSD MAC Mini and a SOtM DX USB DDC has, in my opinion and hopefully not to overstate, done an exemplary job of raising the sound quality of my all digital audio system to new heights of fidelity that I never previously even suspected were possible.

 

RE: UpTone new ISO REGEN ($325) "borrows" concept from Intona ?, posted on April 26, 2017 at 18:33:28
el34eh@yahoo.com
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Yes....., it's getting quite interesting. Yet I can't speak on the chipsets being used in either in so much as how each implements what they use. And yes......, the JCAT is indeed a dressed up Intona as I mentioned here awhile back upon buying one and enjoying it a great deal I should add, but still seem to keep my eyes peeled upon said advancements in this key area of interest.

Finger-crossed Mercman shall be reviewing both in the months to come.

 

RE: UpTone new ISO REGEN ($325) "borrows" concept from Intona ?, posted on April 27, 2017 at 04:00:12
Mercman
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 I ordered an ISO REGEN.

 

RE: UpTone new ISO REGEN ($325) "borrows" concept from Intona ?, posted on April 27, 2017 at 09:46:36
el34eh@yahoo.com
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That's great news. As I intend to follow suit.....

 

So, this could replace a urendu., posted on April 29, 2017 at 19:23:22
PaulN
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 It seems to be an alternative to a renderer. Will be interesting to read comparisons. Are you buying one?

 

RE: As usual, you missed the point again....., posted on May 3, 2017 at 08:10:39
GStew
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Posts: 633
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 It seems like before one guesses on what motivated Uptone to pursue this path, one MIGHT want to read their posts about the device:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31589-iso-regen-launch-thread-product-web-page-up-photos-etc/?do=findComment&comment=655017

Where Alex posted:

"A somewhat shy reader just sent us a question via PM and asked that we answer it here on the forum. Here are the questions copied from his letter:

Like most I am trying to get the best bang for my audio dollar. So why didn't you and John simply wait longer and build the Iso Regen to begin with? This is my question.

I hope instead of responding to me that you will post your answer @ CA for everyone to see. My belief is that your answer will help create additional trust from your customers as they decide why and whether to spend another $300 for a product you have supposedly improved in a short time since you asked for $200 for the original Regen.

The answer has two simple parts:
1) The Silanna high-speed USB isolator chip did not exist when we first developed the original USB REGEN (I found out about it in December 2015, about 2 months after the chip's first announcement);
[And while John and I discussed early on what it would take to offer galvanic isolation--an FPGA and bunch of development time; (this was 7 months before the Intona--which takes that approach--was ever announced), we decided against that.]

2) When we were designing the first USB REGEN at the end of 2014, even the Linear Technology LT3042 ultra-ultra-low-noise regulators had not yet been announced (they became available in April 2015);

3) While we knew that a quality, low-phase-noise clock would be helpful for the REGEN, it was not until much later that we considered that using a world-class clock would be significant.

As for it being a short time from the USB REGEN at $175 to the ISO REGEN (with 4x the parts cost) at basically $290 (if you subtract out the $35 retail USPCB being included with the ISO REGEN), I would hardly consider two years between product introductions (April 2015 - April 2017) as being a short time.

I hope the above forthright answers are helpful to you Shaun. And please, do join up here at CA and feel free to ask anybody anything. CA members are a friendly bunch--especially to "newbies" and we don't bite! :)

--Alex C."

So yes they did consider the same scheme as the Intona (before it was released)... and ultimately the Iso uses an entirely different isolator mechanism and chip.

I don't have a dog in the USB audio hunt as I don't use USB in any of my computer audio setups. BUT I have a lot of respect for what John & Alex are doing with their Uptone Audio products and those that fit in my setups (like the LPS-1) have been very beneficial.

Greg in Mississippi


Everything matters!

 

RE: As usual, you missed the point again....., posted on May 4, 2017 at 10:04:37
AbeCollins
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I didn't have to read posts by UpTone to arrive at the same conclusion.... but thanks for posting comments that support what I determined through my own research.... and already posted in this thread.

The single-chip solution that simplified the implementation of a silicon barrier based USB galvanic isolator was not available when UpTone released the first REGEN. I already stated that in this thread. It wasn't available when Intona created their USB isolator years prior.

Intona created a silicon barrier USB isolator years prior through a lot of their own R&D and by using more components. The 'chip' Intona used wasn't much more than the silicon barrier itself. They had to create and program their own supporting logic (via Xilinx FPGAs) for USB protocol conversion then reconstruction back to USB. The new chip that UpTone uses has all of this capability built-in.

But the resulting concept is the same... USB galvanic isolation over a silicon barrier. Now that the single-chip device is on the market, we will see more of these USB isolators as they are easier to implement.


 

RE: As usual, you missed the point again....., posted on May 6, 2017 at 18:13:26
jkeny
Manufacturer

Posts: 502
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 "Now that the single-chip device is on the market, we will see more of these USB isolators as they are easier to implement."

Indeed, yes - I have an isolated USB hub (ISO-HUB) on tour. This is different insofar as it is powered directly by battery, no voltage regulators in between - this makes a great difference as anybody who has heard the prototype can attest (and my thread here on bypassing the voltage reg of the Regen with direct battery power) & I termed it optimised isolation

An isolated power supply (ISO-PS) is also part of the new offerings as is an isolated DAC (ISO-DAC) & isolated SPDIF converter (ISO-SPDIF) - all battery powered & all using optimised isolation. These last two products are world firsts - isolated high speed DAC & converter

More about my approach can be read here https://sites.google.com/site/jkciunas/usb-isolation-devices

And more info on the products here:

 

RE: As usual, you missed the point again....., posted on May 8, 2017 at 18:34:13
jkeny
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Posts: 502
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 First impressions coming in here http://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4240&p=83516&sid=d3647ccb7aac6afa0c7c9164d56ce25f#p83515

"Straight away yesterday I could hear the difference, the 2 words that come to mind are a fuller and natural sounding presentation.
There is definitely more body to music and a very natural sound, dare I say it very analogue but with all the detail and more.
Not sure how many hours you have on the units but it sounds even better today, maybe the batteries are now fully charged but even with them charged it sounds like it is still improving.

It is definitely a step forward from the prototype we have heard on several occasions over the last year."

 

RE: As usual, you missed the point again....., posted on May 19, 2017 at 18:14:13
jkeny
Manufacturer

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 http://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=83591#p83642

"Very happy now with the sweetness and the way notes hang that much better in the air with the ISO Hub so I will be handing it back to John at the weekend for next in line."

 

Also "borrowed" W4S's Fempto Clock, posted on July 2, 2017 at 22:11:04
emailtim
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It looks like they also "borrowed" the Femto clock that W4S uses in its Recovery reclocker and W4S's upgraded DACs.

What is that saying about the "sincerest form of flattery" ?


.

2022/03/30 Historical Records CENSORED

 

The fact is, posted on July 3, 2017 at 07:05:00
fmak
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Posts: 13158
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 nobody borrows anything from anyone; they are just applying principles that they believe in and use components that they see fit for the price that they think they can command.

The way that some see this 'borrowing' can simply be put down to ignorance of basic principles in the isolation and regeneration of waveform propagation ie signal conditioning in the subject of Mesurement and Control in electronics.

 

RE: The fact is, posted on July 3, 2017 at 09:59:43
emailtim
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Posts: 5480
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 As Abe already said, "As usual, you missed the point again....".

Your assessment falls apart when a competitor buys another competitor's product on discounted initial product launch, opens it up and dissects what makes it successful (even publishes their dissection) while they are designing their competing product. Then, the heart of the competitor's product (exact part number) "mysteriously" appears in their subsequent product.

Timing of purchase and purchase of competitor's product is pretty telling wouldn't you say ?

Companies have been doing this for ever, just some are not so obvious and public about doing it.

P.S. The irony of the story is the competitor then refuses to sell their new product to an independent that wants to measure it and publish the results for all to read. It is OK for the competitor to publicly dissect his competitor's product, but it is not OK for someone to measure his product.
.

2022/03/30 Historical Records CENSORED

 

The point is simple, posted on July 3, 2017 at 11:34:53
fmak
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Posts: 13158
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 usb isolation requirements are well known, well before Itona implemented it's version. To say that John Swenson lifted this off Itona is simply a slur.

There is a difference between good practice from first principles in setting up audio and bean counting based on pictures of chips and circuit boards.

 

Look, Squirrel, posted on July 3, 2017 at 12:46:55
emailtim
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Posts: 5480
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 What does USB isolation have to do with a Femto clock selection ?
.

2022/03/30 Historical Records CENSORED

 

Read the first post, posted on July 4, 2017 at 00:05:03
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
 But clocking and isolation are linked to jitter reduction/elevation. All isolation chips add to jiiter, not reduce it.

Therefore when discussing the subject of who is copying who, it is necessary to look at the principles behind an implementation and the success or otherwise of it; and not look at a circuit board picture with chip designations to infer what may be better or worse, or if A and copying B.

Incidentally, Fempto clocks may not be that good on Phase Noise below 10 Hz or at 1 Hz, which is what counts. The power supply quality to the chip is also important, which is where the JS design is different from the WS design.

 

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