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Help needed with cable lengths

47.156.245.173
Posted on March 24, 2017 at 14:47:15
mr.bear
Audiophile

Posts: 4167
Joined: November 13, 2001
 Researching back a couple years, the consensus seemed to favor the shortest possible USB cable and a surprisingly long minimum length for S/PDIF coax, around a couple meters. That's how it's set up now in my system and it sounds pretty darn good.

Is it still generally held that long USB cables are undesirable and should be kept just long enough to get your device away from the EMI coming out of the PC?

The reason for asking is that I'm considering trying a new XMOS-based box to perform the USB to S/PDIF DDC-ing, and am choosing how to cable it and where to locate it.

TIA!

 

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RE: Help needed with cable lengths, posted on March 24, 2017 at 22:05:14
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 I am added a 15'amplified USB cable to my system so I can keep my laptop close to me and it has had no negative impact on the sound of my system at all
Alan

 

RE: Help needed with cable lengths, posted on March 24, 2017 at 22:44:12
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
 I have built 10 to 20 cm Wireworld Starlight (versions 5 or 6) cables withGold Plated Copper plugs, and these, from a Regen or iFi usb3 outperforms twin headed cables such as the iFi and other 'silver' offerings. t is not hard to do but requires patience.

You may also consider also I2S input via hdmi cable but here the variations in cable quality are just as important!

 

do you have a link?, posted on March 25, 2017 at 06:43:03
G Squared
Audiophile

Posts: 8491
Location: Washington, DC Metro Area
Joined: November 16, 2004
Contributor
  Since: May 23, 2023
 Thanks
Gsquared

 

RE: Help needed with cable lengths, posted on March 25, 2017 at 08:55:49
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Is it still generally held that long USB cables are undesirable and should be kept just long enough to get your device away from the EMI coming out of the PC?

Very long USB cables are undesirable but they don't have to be impractically short. Standard lengths like 0.5M - 1.5M or so (for passive cables) are fine.

If you believe that ultra-short is a requirement and practical for your layout, you can try an adapter/coupler like the one supplied with the Uptone Regen.

Or a short ~6-inch cable:

Or you can hack one to desired length a la the school of fmak.


 

Poor Advice, posted on March 25, 2017 at 09:45:42
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
 'Solid' usb couplers are not solid; cut one up to have a look. The way they connect the two sections with wires screw up impedance matching. The Regen one doesn't sound that good when compared to 1m and 0.5m Wireworld Starlights. My 15cm one sounds much better still and as the length is reduced from 0.5m, there appears to be sweet spots after 0.3cm. I tried making up a 'solid' connector using Starlight strands with shielding removed but there was no way of a rational impedance matched method of attachment unless one uses a signal analyser to investigate (which I don't have). The thing didn't sound much good either.

The cheap 15 cm cables that you can buy sound even worse.

 

Good Advice, posted on March 25, 2017 at 10:50:52
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 "there appears to be sweet spots after 0.3cm."

...if you believe this and you're good with a knife, magnifying glass, and have itty-bitty fingers, go for it! It's a tough school. ;-)




 

RE: Help needed with cable lengths, posted on March 25, 2017 at 11:25:42
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 Anecdotal evidence indicates a 1.5 meter S/PDIF digital cable does well to help avoid termination related cable reflections, but this issue tends to be cable dependent and it is said to be primarily a way to avoid using a 1 meter length S/PDIF digital cable that tends to be more prone to cable reflections. A shorter 0.5 meter digital cable that is terminated with a "75 Ohm friendly" rca connector and termination method is the preferred option, IME. A USB cable should be a long as practical within a longest-length limitation, with the shortest possible length being the best option to consider. YMMV

 

RE: Help needed with cable lengths, posted on March 25, 2017 at 14:50:53
Fitzcaraldo215
Audiophile

Posts: 1120
Location: Philadelphia
Joined: September 7, 2008
 My advice is not to listen to anyone else, but to listen for yourself to different cables, if the issue is of concern. It is not that hard to try stuff. Then, you can embrace your own beliefs based on what you, not someone else, claims to have heard.

None of the manufacturer, reviewer, or audiophile forum denizen claims are based on science or on bias-controlled listening. So, it comes down to a matter of belief and what your own ears tell you. It also may be system dependent, so there are no universal, hard/fast rules you can rely on based what other "gurus" give you, as Moses did with the tablets on Mt. Sinai.

Me. I hear no advantage or disadvantage to short USB cables, and I use a 15 footer, myself, though nothing exotic. I also abandoned my Regen awhile ago. And, specific "optimum" lengths for USB, coax, etc. are just whatever you wish to believe.

 

RE: do you have a link?, posted on March 25, 2017 at 17:49:18
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 I believe this is it
Alan

 

Good advice..., posted on March 25, 2017 at 21:01:40
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 I was going to recommend the same thing. Try it both ways and pick the one you like best!

 

So Basically You Stopped Believing, posted on March 26, 2017 at 07:35:06
Dynobot
 Great!

Trusting your ears is very hard for an Audiophile....cost bias, measurements and all...

 

RE: So Basically You Stopped Believing, posted on March 26, 2017 at 09:08:51
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
 Trusting yours ears is not difficult for committed audiophiles. However, whether the judgements are valid depends on whether systematic trials, based on knowhow and knowledge, have actually been carried out.

A statement like 'I use a 15ft usb cable that doesn't hurt SQ' is only valid in that instance of usage; it does not reflect truth that is applicable to other installations. Reasons:-plenty and improper setup is just one of them.

There is plenty of evidence that stock usb cables, not properly terminated, hurts SQ and statements like 'there is no science' are simply based on prejudicial convictions.

 

RE: So Basically You Stopped Believing, posted on March 26, 2017 at 09:29:38
Dynobot
 Yes sometimes a general method of usage will not provide optimal results in all situations.

Which is why its important to trust your ears.

"Committed Audiophile"...this probably means different things to different people.

IMO, Audiophiles tend to trust that a product of higher cost, produces better sound...for a variety of reasons, some valid, some not.

With this said, from my experience Audiophiles tend to trust measurements, public sentiment and branding more than their ears.





 

Absurd Advice, posted on March 26, 2017 at 10:00:49
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 The notion that well-informed advice is meaningless since personal belief is the determining factor goes against the nature of seeking audiophile advice. Listeners may as well ignore anything said about any device in question, which would make participation in an audiophile forum a pointless endeavor to explore.

 

RE: Absurd Advice, posted on March 26, 2017 at 10:16:42
Dynobot
 I agree.

Forums can be a good 'and valid' source of information. As long as the reader is able to filter out 'group think' and 'bias'.

Either way, all print is useful as ref information if nothing else.

 

RE: Absurd Advice, posted on March 26, 2017 at 10:26:56
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 As long as we remember that almost all of the information here is subjective. The asylum is good for suggesting paths to take or equipment to try or music to listen too but it still comes down to personal preference.
Alan

 

RE: Help needed with cable lengths, posted on March 26, 2017 at 10:32:08
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 Of course all this info is dependent on if cable reflections are actually audible to the user of the cable. In measurements it always comes down to the audibility of the measurement.
Alan

 

RE: Help needed with cable lengths, posted on March 26, 2017 at 10:37:31
Mike B.
Audiophile

Posts: 26356
Location: OR
Joined: September 27, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 1, 1999
 Good move using XMOS converter IMO. 1.5 meters has been kicked around with respect to Toslink and Spdif cables for years. 15 meters is the supposed limit for USB runs, and 20 meters for Spdif. I have not noticed any deterioration in sonic quality between .5 meter to 1.5 meter USB cables.


 

RE: Absurd Advice, posted on March 26, 2017 at 10:40:04
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 Subjective evaluation is the end result, yet there can be very credible insights that are based on a level of consensus, the prevailing wisdom of all things considered to a degree, with an agreement to disagree. A number of audiophiles provide keen insights about various topics and issues with a similar perspective that make this hobby an aesthetic and intellectual resource, as well as a social experience in the process.

 

RE: Help needed with cable lengths, posted on March 26, 2017 at 10:46:21
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 It's true that keen hearing and listening skills are often developed over a course of many years of experience. Cable reflections are audible based on my own experiences.

 

I've had good luck with this "Plugable", posted on March 26, 2017 at 11:26:12
mr.bear
Audiophile

Posts: 4167
Joined: November 13, 2001
 Sounded fine, works well, well made. Worth trying .

 

Got it..., posted on March 26, 2017 at 11:42:38
mr.bear
Audiophile

Posts: 4167
Joined: November 13, 2001
 Of course I will try the 2 cabling scenarios but I have limited money and closet-space (to retain the reject cables) and was hoping for a broad idea of what's worked best for folks.

My take-away from the discussion here is that the differences are quite system-dependent and there are not necessarily 'consensus' recommendations.

I've found the differences in digital cabling to be very subtle and reveal themselves perhaps annually, when a cable gets swapped and/or replaced. They don't jump right out at you like swapping cartridges! Ive just experienced that by adding new "universal' disc player to my system and now have 'upgrade-itis' re. my computer audio playback

 

Thanks, posted on March 26, 2017 at 11:59:45
G Squared
Audiophile

Posts: 8491
Location: Washington, DC Metro Area
Joined: November 16, 2004
Contributor
  Since: May 23, 2023
 That looks suitable and the price is right. I like to have my laptop on my lap in my listening position sometimes.
Gsquared

 

I agree.....................and, posted on March 26, 2017 at 12:11:50
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 Once you've put together a great system and are still looking for improvements, the changes you are chasing maybe inaudible.

Or if the changes do sound different, deciding which one sounds better may depend on the music or mood of the listener.



 

RE: Absurd Advice, posted on March 26, 2017 at 12:14:43
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
 You are right but this kind of dismissal of advice in response to request happens far too often in AA of late. This stops any kind of meaningful discussion which seems to be the modus operandi of a few posters (for whatever reason).

Why would anyone pay attention to posts from guys who find the Regen unworthy of use when perhaps a thousand others do use it to improve sound quality from usb attached devices?

 

RE: Absurd Advice, posted on March 26, 2017 at 12:47:45
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 Very well said.
Alan

 

RE: Absurd Advice, posted on March 26, 2017 at 12:55:56
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 The only thing a researcher can do is to consider the source of information and perhaps whether it is credible based on research gathered from other sources. It can be easy to write-off good advice or take-up bad advice if there is no personal effort put into the learning curve of any technical topic. A plug-and-play mentality tends to take the easiest path of resolve, rather than gaining insight from other folk's boots on the ground efforts. It's their own loss if taking the easy way out is the preferable audiophile path.

 

RE: Got it..., posted on March 26, 2017 at 13:29:02
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 > My take-away from the discussion here is that the differences are quite system-dependent and there are not necessarily 'consensus' recommendations.

That's par for the course in audio. That's why you really need to try it both ways and decide for yourself.

> I've found the differences in digital cabling to be very subtle and reveal themselves perhaps annually, when a cable gets swapped and/or replaced.

In that case, why worry about it? Set up your system the way that's most convenient for you and concentrate on the music. After all, the common statement from most audio enthusiasts is: "It's all about the music!" If this is really true, why worry about a possible subtle difference that can hardly be heard?

I like Monster Cable interconnects and I use them exclusively in my system. I buy top-of-the-line Monster Cable at discount prices on eBay and I couldn't be happier with the sound of my system. Most of my friends who spend thousands of dollars on audiophile interconnects never seem to be happy with the sound of their systems. Therefore, you probably need to get back to the music and quit worrying about whether a shorter or longer USB cable might make a subtle difference that's nearly impossible to hear anyway. Simply buy the length cable that fits your needs and be done with it.

Good luck,
John Elison

 

Thinking outside the box..., posted on March 26, 2017 at 13:32:47
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 An interesting issue I've not very posted much about in AA is the use of audiophile cables and power cords for the extreme front end of a streaming audio application. This means the choice of coaxial cable connected from the wall, the choice of power cord for a modem/router, and the Ethernet cable connected from a modem/router to a computer Ethernet port making a profound impact on the sound of a computer audio system for streaming audio purposes. Since a topic such as this can be considered a topic for ridicule by those who have no interest in experimenting for themselves, I tend to watch and wait for the topic to arise in this forum with seemingly little attention to AC delivery and audiophile cabling as corollary interests.

 

Excellent Advice, posted on March 26, 2017 at 13:47:50
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
Your level headed comment makes perfect sense to me:

My advice is not to listen to anyone else, but to listen for yourself to different cables, if the issue is of concern.

But I'm sure your advice goes against what certain self-proclaimed experts know to be best for everyone's system.



 

+1 Agree....., posted on March 26, 2017 at 13:49:57
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 ...but that's not to say longer cables are necessarily bad. I happen to run 0.5 - 1.5M because those are the lengths I need.

 

RE: Thinking outside the box..., posted on March 26, 2017 at 13:54:40
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 And what criteria do you use for selecting "Audiophile Cabling". Price? Or do you just listen every cable you can get your hands on?



 

+1(5x8)-40, posted on March 26, 2017 at 14:04:29
Dynobot
 For some reason people equate digital length of 1.5 meter (spdif) with USB digital.

Its great for manufactures as they can limit runs to 1.5 meter and make more profit on a spool.

Wait a minute, companies don't care about profits...its all for the good of our listening pleasure.

 

Not my intent (nt), posted on March 26, 2017 at 14:05:12
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 nt

 

Cable Selection Criteria, posted on March 26, 2017 at 15:14:57
Dynobot
 Well I DO have selection criteria!!!!

Digital Cable must be solid core.
No silver plating.
No bare wire.
Must be cheap!

 

Touché (nt), posted on March 26, 2017 at 16:36:42
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 nt

 

Zero....................., posted on March 26, 2017 at 18:18:28
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 That's what I get.



 

RE: Zero.....................Correct!, posted on March 26, 2017 at 19:43:53
Dynobot
 A big fat ZERO

This thread is making much to do about nothing.

 

RE: Thinking outside the box..., posted on March 26, 2017 at 22:15:45
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
 The issue to me has been the trait of not wanting to know what is inside the box. For any system, the box has a transfer function relationship between input and output but some inmates assume perfect relationships and call these 'science' or whatever.

The fact is simply that there is no perfect black box and cabling affects transfer functions. The scientific way to consider the effects is to write down the functional relationships that can affect sound quality and look at each in turn. Since there are too many of them in audio reproduction, the shorter route can be 'trial and error' which is a perfectly acceptable approach in science.

If some inmates don't, or don't want to, find out what I have written about, don't bother responding.

 

RE: Cable Selection Criteria, posted on March 27, 2017 at 12:30:34
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
Why no silver? Just curious.



 

RE: Cable Selection Criteria, posted on March 27, 2017 at 18:45:31
Dynobot
 I like silver, just not silver plated copper.

Silver plated copper does not seem to be coherent to me...solid silver sounds great and solid copper sounds great.

 

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