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Ronald Brautigam's Beethoven Sonatas via the fortepiano

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Posted on June 15, 2017 at 00:05:07
John C. - Aussie
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Posts: 5146
Location: Northern Tasmania
Joined: November 9, 1999
 These nine discs arrived today and are now in the Server feeding music via Roon. A couple of surprises about them to post about.

First listening was done on the high end rig using the Focal Utopia headphones. I've previously been prejudiced against the sound of the fortepiano as "clunky" and unappealing but am changing my mind with a caveat, more of that in a moment. Broutigam's playing came though the headphones with an unexpected precision of sound. It was more like the precision one hears on the harpsichord, something unsurprising as it is a derivation of that instrument. Each note sounded with less associated resonance that accompanies music played on the modern instrument.and the impact was impressive.

So I moved to the office here to continue listening as this post is typed. The set up here is a different DAC (a modded Benchmark DAC1) fed into Sennheiser HD800S headphones. And the sound is entirely different!!!. Much less precise and, very oddly there is a resonance with it that was absent in the other system. Most unexpected. The fortepiano on this system is sounding much more like the modern piano.

Of course the artistry is the same BUT it is going to make a difference to my enjoyment of it when it is not as detailed and the playing does not come through with the precision of the other system.

But this is a forum about music, not the hardware so I'll say no more. Bottom line I'm looking forward to listening to more sonatas and will be interested to hear from others what they think of the forte instrument. Maybe someone here has actiually played on one?


What can be more subjective than music? It reflects our personal tastes and preferences.

 

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"Maybe someone here has actually played on one?", posted on June 15, 2017 at 00:49:09
Chris from Lafayette
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  Since: February 6, 2012
 Ahem. . . yes I have. I've played on a Broadwood from Beethoven's time and another one from Mozart's time. (I don't remember the builder - it may have been one by Anton Walter, but I'm not sure.) The one from Mozart's time had knee levers instead of pedals. I've also played on an Erard piano from Beethoven's time - this last instance was at a (very wealthy) friend's house, and I played on it quite extensively: many Haydn Sonatas and Beethoven's Pathétique Sonata.

As for the sound of these instruments, I believe I've made my opinions on this subject known over the years in previous posts. ;-)

 

RE: Ronald Brautigam's Beethoven Sonatas via the fortepiano, posted on June 15, 2017 at 02:53:22
PAR
 I bought this set volume by volume as they were originally released.

I think that Brautigam has an inherent understanding of the shape of the pieces ( by which I mean that he is never self indulgent or adopts excessive tempi or engages in unexpected gear changes), the form and intent are always clear. But I am a mere amateur of such matters.

As for the sound of the instrument the fact that it is a fortepiano is clear to me but it is a very good fortepiano and not excessively "clangy" , at least to my ears. Maybe I have just got used to it? I think that may be the case as I never liked an early " original instrument" (as it used to be known) recording of the " Moonlight" by Malcolm Binns due the the fortepiano's sound. However I played it a few weeks ago and found myself rather enjoying it.

So, a very good transition of the set of works IMO unless even the very thought of a fortepiano brings out a skin rash.

 

I'm glad you had a bit of an epiphany, I have not. The whole set was 1/2-off a couple of months ago and very , posted on June 15, 2017 at 06:46:49
jdaniel@jps.net
 tempting.

I like the sound of a well-chosen harpsichord, but alas not fortepiano.

Melnikov plays on a forte-piano quite a bit when recording for Harmonia Mundi. If you want to check out more, his Beethoven and Schumann Chamber music with (Faust on violin) is very well-recorded and I love their musicianship. I've avoided these releases however because I just can't warm up to the instrument.

 

I now suspect the fortepiano is not easy to reproduce well, posted on June 15, 2017 at 16:31:05
John C. - Aussie
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Posts: 5146
Location: Northern Tasmania
Joined: November 9, 1999
 I completely understand where you are coming from and would have agreed with you previously. I would not have changed my mind had I only been exposed to its sound on a good, rather than excepional, system.

And I'm still surprised at the difference in audio quality from the two systems here, and it is due to the DAC/amp, not the headphones.

On the top system the notes on the fortepiano sound more precise than with the regular piano and, to me, do give new insight into the music. Please note I'm not saying I prefer one to the other but the differences have been more "chalk and cheese" than expected. And Chris, please repeat your feelings on the fortepiano as I have missed those past comments.

And, BTW, I also love harpsichord music but have found its reproduction is not straightforward either and can be messed up by average electronics.

So I must confess that the quality of music reproduction is a very important aspect of my music enjoyment so few historical recordings are enjoyable althought the talent of Callas is an exception. From this viewpoint assembling a top system can be a curse as it detracts enjoyment from lesser systems, something I appreciate is of less concern to trained musicians who can "see through" the audio.
What can be more subjective than music? It reflects our personal tastes and preferences.

 

"Chris, please repeat your feelings on the fortepiano", posted on June 15, 2017 at 18:33:54
Chris from Lafayette
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 Well, John, as you know, I'm very sensitive to the feelings of others around here on AA, and, over the years, I've noticed that some inmates here just don't like to be exposed to my opinions about fortepianos (even though I have actual experience playing on them!). ;-)

But because YOU specially requested it, I'm dredging up my post from a decade ago on this topic. The context was CB's recommendation of a certain recording of the Trout Quintet:
"To pick Simon Standage once again, I find that the recordings he made of Mozart and Schubert quartets with the Salomon Quartet (Hyperion), or especially the recording he made of the Trout Quintet with [forte]pianist Steven Lubin (gasp--playing a lovely-sounding Graf [forte]piano of about 1830) on L'Oiseau Lyre to be very close to my ideal in terms of tasteful, expressive violin playing."
To which I responded:
"That's one of SS's recordings I've actually heard - but here I wasn't so bothered by his playing as by the tone of the fortepiano - a kind of desiccated cross between a toy piano and strung-together rubber bands!"
I would only add that, on the one Sonata I heard from Brautigam's cycle (thanks to the kindness of BIS Boss Robert von Bahr), the piano also had an unpleasant, percussive, metallic sound (which I blame on the piano itself, not at all on the engineering) - just IMHO. Other than the instrument itself, I thought the performance was well played.

 

Have you heard this one?, posted on June 15, 2017 at 19:38:40
kuma
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Posts: 10273
Location: IN
Joined: July 8, 2001
 Not that I have many piano forte recordings but one I like a lot is Andreas Steier's Schubert's Impromptus played on a 1996 Christopher Clarke Fortepiano copy of 1827 instrument by the Viennese maker Graf.

Certainly it's not a modern Steinway, but warm and atmospheric, this is a nice intimate recording. Slightly closed down and veiled but very little distortion through the frequency range and I think it has a realistic tonal colours and in-room presence to my ears. I was surprising that period instrument has this much bottom end. ( but then this is a replica so maybe they've improved some constructions here and there.)

P.S. I just googled and Graf was Beethoven's last piano.

 

"the precision one hears on the harpsichord, ... as it is a derivation of that instrument" WRONG!!! , posted on June 16, 2017 at 04:00:33
Timbo in Oz
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Posts: 23221
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
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 The Viennese Action forte-piano - an example of of which being what Brautigam plays - is a very successful attempt at producing a much louder clavichord, while retaining the clavichord's tonal simplicity or purity, clarity, and ability to play very quietly.

The double-action piano, and its iron framed successors _are_ the successors to the loud clangorous, jangly (Just ask Chris!) harpsichord.

Bullshit still baffles brains, and ears!

John, I suggest that you search here on fortepianos and my moniker, first.
Before replying.


Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

Ignorance once AGAIN!!!! , posted on June 16, 2017 at 04:05:53
Timbo in Oz
Audiophile

Posts: 23221
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
Joined: January 30, 2002
 Broadwood only ever made Double-Action pianos. Like you LOVE but with iron frames.

And so, the Walter should have sounded VERY different from the Broadwood.

One is forced to ask if either piano was in good working condition, which I doubt.

Prejudice? LOL!


Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

"the fortepiano" do you mean late 18C/early 19c Double-Action, posted on June 16, 2017 at 04:14:10
Timbo in Oz
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Posts: 23221
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
Joined: January 30, 2002
 wood frame 'forte'-pianos or Viennese Action forte-pianos? How are Brautigam's recordings miked? This is important.

No instrument is hard to record if you don't get too close and maybe, even! shock-horror! use a stereo pair of mikes.

If you are used to multiple-mono miked pianos - which you almost certainly are - you might find a modern iron-frame DA piano - when recorded with a stereo pair - difficult to like, too!

How often have you been to a live concert with a VA piano-forte?

Never, I'd be betting. .......






Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

"some inmates here just don't like to be exposed to my opinions about fortepianos", posted on June 16, 2017 at 07:03:35
jec01
Audiophile

Posts: 1462
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Joined: September 22, 2004
 Chris,

You and I have discussed fortepianos before, and we see (and hear!) things differently. But I for one always enjoy your opinions, even if they're wrong :). Please don't ever hold back.

Happy listening,

Jim

"The passage of my life is measured out in shirts."
- Brian Eno

 

Not ignorance - YOU'RE making assumptions!, posted on June 16, 2017 at 10:33:23
Chris from Lafayette
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  Since: February 6, 2012
 I never said they sounded the same. Yes, one sounded like a toy piano and the other sounded like strung-together rubber bands. I'll never understand how people can listen to these instruments (other than to get a sense of the severely limited expressive possibilities which the keyboard composers of those times had at their disposal), and even take pleasure in their primitive sounds. But far be it from me to dictate what people should listen to! ;-)

As for their working condition, they were locked away in a holy-of-holies special room (almost a shrine!) and were only available to be played as part of a general class (as in my case - where you had to prostrate yourself before being allowed access - just kidding!) or to be used only by the one or two specialist keyboard players who were majoring in fortepiano playing. I do not know what regular maintenance they received, but, in general, the faculty worshipped these instruments, so I'm sure they were well cared for.

 

Yes - that was a funny exchange!, posted on June 16, 2017 at 10:43:29
Chris from Lafayette
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  Since: February 6, 2012
 Actually, I was just having a bit of fun with my previous post, But I'm glad that you, Timbo, jdaniel (and others) always stick to your guns! We should all be passionate about what we like - and I appreciate your comment!

 

You like the sound of a fortepiano much more than I do, posted on June 17, 2017 at 07:56:57
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 They sound like broken pianos to me. It baffles me that there is any interest in them other than their historical significance.

 

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