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Classics Today reviews a HIP Ravel Daphnis et Chlo�

216.144.236.43
Posted on May 12, 2017 at 09:24:08
Chris from Lafayette
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 Jee-zuz!

Fortunately, Dave tells it like it is:
The false premise mentioned above stems from the idea that by using "instruments of the period," the interpretation can lay claim to some degree of "authenticity." Daphnis premiered in 1912. There was nothing about orchestral performance in 1912 so different from, say, 1950, or 2000, that it would have superseded the audible differences between orchestras and interpreters from one performance to the next. Nothing. The period instrument crowd can whinge all it likes about vibrato, or string portamento, or small bore brass, or catgut and what have you, but all they are doing is exaggerating the significance of trivial details and exalting mechanism over artistry.
I might also note Roth's studied "academician" pose on the booklet cover:



HIPsters getting their claws into this kind of repertoire is the musical equivalent of fake news! Link to the whole review:

 

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RE: Classics Today reviews a HIP Ravel Daphnis et Chloé, posted on May 12, 2017 at 09:31:58
jdaniel@jps.net



I had a feeling you'd appreciate that review. : ) At least conductors don't rule the world.

 

LOL! - Very good! But at least I'm not a lone voice in the wilderness! [nt] ;-), posted on May 12, 2017 at 12:42:28
Chris from Lafayette
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Grade Inflation, posted on May 12, 2017 at 19:00:38
Paul_A
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 Artistic Quality: 7. Presumably this means that the interpretation is well above average.

The review ends with "Why waste your time with it when Monteux is readily available and you can still enjoy the real thing?" Sounds like a 2 to me.

Maybe every new recording gets a 5 just for showing up, or maybe they hand out five points for having survived the Conservatoire National Supérieur de Musique.

 

I've never liked the famous Monteux., posted on May 12, 2017 at 19:06:19
jdaniel@jps.net
 His LSO had a terrible French accent, IMHO.

A personal thing,but I also like a bit more of a languorous Sunrise. Monteux's is pretty bleached and squeaky-clean IIRC.

 

I've never even liked Daphnis and Chloe....., posted on May 12, 2017 at 21:07:34
andy evans
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 I probably haven't listened to Daphnis more than Bolero, and that's a very small number of listens.

It's a bit like Debussy's Jeux. There are undeniably good things in it but I just have no desire to listen to the music. I find it sprawling and rather shapeless and I find the content fairly uninteresting.

This coming from a bit of a Ravel addict. Love the Piano Concerto in G, adore L'Enfant et les Sortileges, often listen to Tombeau de Couperin, Ma Mere L'Oie, Rhapsodie Espagnole, Pavane, Valses Nobles, piano trio and a lot of the piano music.

But again I don't like the Left Hand PC and I can't take La Valse more than the odd listen. At times Ravel can be repetitive and over-emphatic for all his brilliance as an orchestrator.

 

"I find the content fairly uninteresting" - What?, posted on May 13, 2017 at 00:10:03
Chris from Lafayette
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 You don't like stories about nymphs?

 

RE: Classics Today reviews a HIP Ravel Daphnis et Chlo�, posted on May 13, 2017 at 00:19:08
PAR
 Yes, well, that's one view.

Here are links to some others :

https://www.europadisc.co.uk/images/April%202017%20List.pdf


My view: irrespective of any other considerations this is one of the best performances of Daphnis and Chloe on disc.

Chris have you actually heard it in order to form an opinion?







 

No - My opinion is a priori at this point! ;-), posted on May 13, 2017 at 01:09:57
Chris from Lafayette
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 But your Europadisc link is not so much to a review, but rather to publicity about the disc, including self-serving quote from the conductor himself. The brief Guardian review indicates that the Roth performance is a "guide" to the music. Nothing to get too excited about as I read it. In addition, I see from a MWI review that the recording was patched together from performances at no less than SIX different locations, and I just don't see how one is going to get a coherent recording with the engineering team's use of a multi-environmental approach like this.

OTOH, I do respect your own opinion - which means I'll probably have to acquire this release if only to confirm my a priori opinion about it! ;-)

BTW, regarding the references to the Monteux/LSO recording in Dave's review and in a couple of posts on this thread, Music Web International claims that the reissue on the Praga label (I guess derived from a commercial open reel tape - somewhat like HDTT does) is actually (and amazingly) superior to Decca's own reissues of this performance. Hard to believe, but they claim that the Czech remastering snake oil works so well that the performance itself seems up on a higher plane. So I guess that's another one I'll have to investigate! ;-)

 

RE: No - My opinion is a priori at this point! ;-), posted on May 13, 2017 at 03:14:03
PAR
 Thank you for your kind words about my opinion. I am, of course just a know nothing but am most flattered.

Yes the assemblage of the recording from 6 performances does have a downside but the performance seems seamless and the orchestra/chorus maintain consistent sound and focus. However on one or two occasions the acoustic does change.

There are many things to give pleasure. The first of them is the standard of the small chorus which blends so well with the orchestra that there are points where I had to think " Is this the strings or singing ?". So different from the huge orchestral choruses usually used which almost drown out the band.

But it is the artistry of the performance that grabs attention. As an example, immediately after the pirates episode there is a nocturn. However what is not apparent from most record track listings is that Ravel does not just mark it Nocturn but " Nocturn ( Une lumiere ireelle enveloppe le paysage)". With Roth that magical light of enchantment is somehow conjured up.

BTW, I do have some Decca Monteux on Praga (SACD) and the sound is superb.

Sorry I didn't manage to respond as quickly as I like to but I was trapped on the computer buying my tickets for the forthcoming Proms season. An annual penance as I try to buy immediately the online box office opens to find today that I was number 4994 in the queue to get onto the actual booking page.

One other OT matter which I hope that you will allow: Yuja Wang and Antony Pappano with the Orchestra dell'Academia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia at the RFH on Thursday evening. Tchaik 1 PC and Fountains and Pines of Rome. A really spectacular concert bringing several encores from Yuja and later the orchestra. As I understand that you are a keen follower of fashion I could let you know what Yuja wore if you are interested :-)

 

Part I contains a bit of fly-over country, but still...., posted on May 13, 2017 at 06:34:43
jdaniel@jps.net
 Sorry the Left Hand PC doesn't grab you. I like it beginning to end. If you do Lp's, the Dela Rocha/Burgos on Decca/London is a fantastic performance and remarkable recording.

 

I LOVE Daphnes., posted on May 13, 2017 at 06:41:36
oldmkvi
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 And Chloe too, for that matter.
I listened to the Cleveland/Szell LP in College, that orch was at its peak,
Marc Livshay and Robert Marcellus were Gods then.
Checkout Mozart #39 with them...

 

Well, it's DSD..., posted on May 13, 2017 at 07:22:45
Ivan303
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And seems to be produced in Austria and distributed by 'hm', so that's a good start.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: "a keen follower of fashion"..., posted on May 13, 2017 at 07:40:38
Ivan303
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 An apt description! :-


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

"Stories about nymphs" with suitable illustrations would work.... (nt), posted on May 13, 2017 at 08:52:46
andy evans
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 .

 

+1 on the Roth Daphnis.... nt, posted on May 13, 2017 at 08:58:30
srl1
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 nt

 

Yes - I guess that's part of the "snake oil"! [nt] ;-), posted on May 13, 2017 at 09:13:27
Chris from Lafayette
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Of course I'd like to know about Yuja's fashion statement at RFH, posted on May 13, 2017 at 09:22:08
Chris from Lafayette
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 Pictures would be even better! ;-)

 

The choir seemed awfully upfront in sample. Nt, posted on May 13, 2017 at 09:22:36
jdaniel@jps.net
 B

 

RE: The choir seemed awfully upfront in sample. Nt, posted on May 13, 2017 at 10:37:09
PAR
 As you can see from my comments below this is most certainly not the case ( I have a 24/96 file of it). The chorus is small in size too. There are parts where the blend between chorus and strings is melded together so well I had to think hard about which was which.

 

RE: Of course I'd like to know about Yuja's fashion statement at RFH, posted on May 13, 2017 at 10:42:43
PAR
 I'm afraid that taking pictures is strictly verboten at the RFH.

She wore a very elegant red floor length silk gown with a short train that swirled on the stage behind her has she walked. Lovely.

Oh, I forgot to mention that the front was slashed to several inches above the knee :-)

 

I guess I'm just lucky..., posted on May 13, 2017 at 12:25:56
Ivan303
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I don't know enough about 'music' to get involved in the politics much.

And living in California, and especially San Francisco, there's politics involved in EVERYTHING.

Even food. On the plus side, I've finally been able to get my weight under control because there is so much food I am no longer allowed to eat, not because it's bad for me but because it's got political problems.

Thankfully, not so with music, at least for me. Heck, I've even softened on the old nazi, HvK since his passing. OK, mostly his earlier stuff before he became "THE H V K !!!".

As far as the Daphnis et Chlo� above, I found it quite charming and enjoyable!

Oh, and I rarely if ever read reviews on stuff I can actually listen to, and with the new streaming service offering CD quality, that's not so difficult.






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Actually, that's an interesting point with so many recordings available via streaming these days, posted on May 13, 2017 at 18:10:34
Chris from Lafayette
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 Maybe critics are becoming less and less necessary - why rely on what the critic thinks when you can listen and decide for yourself in ways that were undreamed of not so long ago. Then again, maybe critics were never really necessary! ;-)

OTOH, perhaps Virgil Thomson was right - music criticism is a literary endeaver, rather than a musical one. ;-)

 

RE: Classics Today reviews a HIP Ravel Daphnis et Chloé, posted on May 13, 2017 at 20:42:38
pbarach
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 I haven't heard this performance, but I have heard numerous Roth/Les Siecles recordings, and I think they are fine performances regardless of what instruments they are using.

FYI, Roth was appointed principal guest conductor of the LSO, replacing Daniel Harding.

 

Interesting stuff..., posted on May 13, 2017 at 22:11:33
Ivan303
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Little outside my listing range, but interesting none the less.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

And thanks to the internet..., posted on May 14, 2017 at 07:23:30
Ivan303
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 We've got YOU! :-)


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

A dubious advantage! [nt] ;-), posted on May 14, 2017 at 09:17:51
Chris from Lafayette
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Seemed perfectly balanced on both headphones and my main system..., posted on May 14, 2017 at 10:37:04
Ivan303
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 albeit my main system is horns. ;-)

That streaming QOBUZ 16/44.1 Lossless FLAC.


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Incidentally, I never heard back from eClassical about the upsampled-to-96/24 download of this recording..., posted on May 15, 2017 at 14:57:10
Russell
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 Wrote them back in March about this (thread linked below) and received a nice reply from George Olvik, eClassical's head honcho (after Robert von Bahr), who said he would take the matter up with Harmonia Mundi. He said he'd let me know what they said, but I've not heard anything...

Still like the performance, tho (and it's not especially HIP-sounding).....

Russell

 

Thanks, Russell - only upsampled 44.1, huh? - Sad!, posted on May 15, 2017 at 17:10:38
Chris from Lafayette
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 The latest Mac OS update broke the spectrograph SW I'd been using (i.e., Spek - I liked it because it did that function and that function only), and I haven't had sufficient will so far to learn the nuances (i.e., setting up the spectrographs to look the way I like to see them - all colorful and everything - LOL!) of any alternative SW (where spectrographs are only a part of the total package).

 

"There was nothing about orchestral performance in 1912 so different from, say, 1950, or 2000, , posted on May 17, 2017 at 22:07:09
Timbo in Oz
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 that it would have superseded the audible differences between orchestras and interpreters from one performance to the next. Nothing. ...."

I can remember MacKerras being interviewed on ABC Classic FM commenting that the VPO didn't now sound anything like it did under Mahler, even when it is playing Mahler.

Every Australian (State/Capital) orchestra I've heard and we have seven, have changed their sound, with differing conductors and over time, since the 1960s until now. I get to hear them on tour, and on ABC Classic FM, a lot.

Even the ACO sounds quite different now to what it did when it started out.

Mostly for the better, IMO.

And I will leave it at that.


Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

Agreed, not bad at all! (If you love the sound of the intruments; I do.), posted on June 14, 2017 at 13:50:01
jdaniel@jps.net
 Hurwitz argument seems like a bit of a non-sequitur: Monteux "knows how the music should sound." OK. But he also knows how Petrushka should (literally) sound, yet his PCO Petrushka sounds very different than his Boston.

10 bucks well-spent. Just a touch more "sultriness" would have been nice, but still. Loved it from beginning to end. And the transparency!

 

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