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First Fischer Mahler 3rd Rave Review. Fool me 4 times....

98.208.117.121
Posted on May 9, 2017 at 19:30:10
jdaniel@jps.net
 "(The first mov't is) not for those who prefer a darker or turbulent approach...."

What are long swaths of the 1st mov't other than dark and turbulent???

Edit: Well, I downloaded the 1st movt and will listen later tonight. And Chris, I chose double super doooper DSD 128, which of course will make the interpretation better.


 

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Interesting - yeah, I saw that review - the guy was impressed, posted on May 9, 2017 at 20:57:31
Chris from Lafayette
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 Regarding the download format, I'll have to check if my soon-to-be-shipped Exasound E38 DAC will support DSD 256 - LOL! But if I'm reading the review correctly, it seems as if the MWI reviewer downloaded and listened to it in DXD (as you know, a PCM format) - strange, when the master is indeed DSD. BTW, I thought Fischer's Mahler Ninth was one of the best (perhaps THE best?) DSD-originated recordings I've heard.

I just checked and DSD 256 (quad DSD) is supported on the E38. WooHoo! So which site do you use for your Channel Classics downloads?

 

RE: Interesting - yeah, I saw that review - the guy was impressed, posted on May 9, 2017 at 21:38:53
jdaniel@jps.net
 My God -- the recording. Channel's come a long way since their Mahler 4 and Rite of Spring, and they were remarkable. Sounds like they finally bought a good bass drum too. Get your kleenex out.

Regarding the 1st movt:

First the good news. Fischer's great when it comes to any comings and goings above ground. But below ground, so to speak, where the wild things are, the conductor just doesn't seem to capture the phantasmagoria as well as others, especially you know who: Adler. Take the sarcastic trombone solo, or the big, yawning brass glissandi, or the endless woodwind trills and tremoli: nothing much is made of these moments. Though anyone new to the symphony won't likely notice.

But, my God--the recording.

 

RE: First Fischer Mahler 3rd Rave Review. Fool me 4 times...., posted on May 10, 2017 at 06:46:03
srl1
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Posts: 1339
Location: Florida Panhandle
Joined: September 2, 2003
 My SACD copy will arrive today. While I agree that his recordings are mostly state-of-the-art, I have been less excited about his recent performances. I'm hoping for the best on this one, but I'm somewhat wary.

 

If you found Fischer's 4th convincing enough...., posted on May 10, 2017 at 07:09:31
jdaniel@jps.net
 IMHO the conductor surpasses himself in this new 3rd, at least in the 1st movt: adequately capturing more of Mahler's emotional moods than ever.

I look forward to downloading the rest tonight. Will his 5th movt touch the heavens?

 

RE: "DXD = 32/352.8k PCM - 8X Redbook [file type is .wav and sometimes .flac]", posted on May 10, 2017 at 07:31:07
Ivan303
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Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
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 I think my multi-bit DAC will handle that if I can figure out some way to play it (no DSD in the house worth listening to).

Or I could just buy the SACD.

Rather try a download of one of Jared's recordings but...

Might become a habit that I just can't break.


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: "DXD = 32/352.8k PCM - 8X Redbook [file type is .wav and sometimes .flac]", posted on May 10, 2017 at 07:58:43
jdaniel@jps.net
 One advantage: you can at least try a single movt.

 

I would bet that the "DXD = 32/352.8k PCM" file they are selling would be pretty good..., posted on May 10, 2017 at 13:44:51
Ivan303
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Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 As that is the file type that the use for mixing.

"The recording was originally digitized using the Grimm AD1, which operates at DSD64. The original session tracks were edited and rebalanced (which meant going through the mixer) in the only available format for that purpose; the Pyramix 352.8KHz/24bit PCM (DXD)."

If that's the file they sell and it's the file they use to then produce the DSD 64 and up files for selling, I should be good.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Is it me, or does it seem he's trudging through the first movement of #6 a bit?, posted on May 10, 2017 at 15:51:29
Ivan303
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Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
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 Fast but at a monotonous pace? I understand it's a marching through whatever Mahler thinks needs to be marched through, and who am I to question when Mahler decides to march?





First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Well, I really like 5/6 of it..., posted on May 10, 2017 at 19:04:23
srl1
Audiophile

Posts: 1339
Location: Florida Panhandle
Joined: September 2, 2003
 First, the sound quality (stereo) is awesome. It was a real test for my new Parasound Halo Integrated Amplifier. Top to bottom frequency spectrum, left to right and front to back stereo imaging pin-point.

The last five movements performance-wise are stunning. I found them lively, intimate, moving and engaged. However, the first movement seemed to be a letdown. It's just too nice, too smooth, too rounded, too laid-back. Part of the problem may be that I learned the Mahler symphonies in the '60s with the Bernstein/NYPhil recordings which are a lot more animated and bombastic than anything around now.

Anyway, it's a keeper but not totally satisfying.

 

RE: Well, I really like 5/6 of it..., posted on May 10, 2017 at 19:22:53
jdaniel@jps.net
 Thanks for the report. I'm relieved you liked the last movt. Hopefully Fischer doesn't rush the final chorale? Mahler asks for a little forward motion but many conductors press it too hard. Glorious stuff to rush.

As for the 1st movt, I actually thought it was rough and colorful by Fischer standards. I enjoyed it, but could have been influenced by sound.

I'll be downloading the 3rd and last movt tonight. If I like, I'll acquire the rest.

 

I don't know his 6th. I do know that conductors and Mahlerians fall into "fast" and "slow" camps. , posted on May 10, 2017 at 19:24:45
jdaniel@jps.net
 .

 

Blah. FWIW, I'm unimpressed overall; I likely wont listen to it again. , posted on May 11, 2017 at 08:08:51
jdaniel@jps.net
 The 3rd movt's climax isn't terrifying, awesome or raucous enough for my tastes, and the posthorn bit is too soft.

The finale didn't move me at all. IMHO it's too fast for all Mahler's Parsifalian string polyphony to register. Before climaxes, Fischer doesn't linger over the Dominant to savor the moment and tease before release. It's a personal taste thing, but for me, home runs are far more exciting and satisfying when played back in slow motion.

Sound and warts aside, Adler still reigns supreme, in my book.

 

So if the original "digitalization" was DSD 64. . . , posted on May 11, 2017 at 11:13:43
Chris from Lafayette
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 . . . why would we need to spend the extra bucks on DSD 128 or DSD 256? And from what you quote, maybe the DXD download WOULD be the preferred format! To me, this is yet another instance of DSD worshippers not realizing that their precious DSD recordings have been "contaminated" (in the balancing and editing stages) with PCM - or else maybe they're living in denial? ;-)

 

Guilty as charged. I assumed that DSD could be edited at this point. Give me Adler at DSD .0001 any day, posted on May 11, 2017 at 12:07:27
jdaniel@jps.net
 Still more exciting.

Back to Channel, I thought they recorded the thing in 264.

Not DSD extremist, btw.

 

What, it's in 5/6 ? Where's One?, posted on May 11, 2017 at 12:38:05
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10583
Joined: April 12, 2002
 sorry, just kidding!

 

RE: So if the original "digitalization" was DSD 64. . . , posted on May 11, 2017 at 12:50:00
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10583
Joined: April 12, 2002
 I think you need some Ears-On experience with DSD.
In my experience, anything converted to DSD sounds better.
That being said, Jussi from HQ said to get whatever Version has the least processing, then convert That to DSD.
It works great, you'll be trying it soon!

 

If your Sony has these Audio Settings, you'll be , posted on May 11, 2017 at 13:02:43
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10583
Joined: April 12, 2002
 getting the most out of it, all in DSD 128, no matter what File Format you play!
I use: Remastering Engine On, DSEE Auto, Gapless Auto, Precision Upsampling, and Volume Normalization Off ( doesn't apply to DSD anyway).

I have 3 DACs , all do DSD, The Sony is better,
and it's not subject to the various USB Noise problems, etc.

I think the Stand-Alone Player idea is great, no connection to Computer at all,
only Ethernet Cable for File Transfer and Internet radio,
and it can be disconnected when listening to Files, just in case...

Not everyone appreciates DSD, but they don't have the Sony!
Of course it's not the Only Way, but it's really good, IMO!

I really can't wait for the next-gen version. Their Portable gear has DSD 256 and some other improvements that would trickle-up to the ( I hope) Z2.

 

RE: If your Sony has these Audio Settings, you'll be , posted on May 11, 2017 at 13:38:56
jdaniel@jps.net
 Yes, I love mine and can't thank you enough for the recommendation. My gripe is with Channel advertising/offering Quad DSD when it's really only 64. But I didn't stop to read the fine print. Moot point though, Fischer just doesn't have a feel for Mahler, though most of the world thinks otherwise.

 

In the case of Channel Classics..., posted on May 11, 2017 at 15:38:38
Ivan303
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Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 that would appear to be "DXD = 32/352.8k PCM" as that's what Jared coverts the DSD 64 he records in order to master?

And he sells it as well.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: "offering Quad DSD when it's really only 64", posted on May 11, 2017 at 16:32:09
Ivan303
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Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 It wasn't DSD 64 for long as he converts that to DXD which is 32/352.8k PCM in order to master it.

THEN he converts the PCM to DSD 64 or whatever for sale.

The only question is whether the "DXD = 32/352.8k PCM" he sells on his web site is the same file that he ends up with after mastering.






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: In the case of Channel Classics..., posted on May 11, 2017 at 16:34:44
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10583
Joined: April 12, 2002
 I read that he records in Multi Channel DSD 256.
I've bought some recent DSD Downloads that were actual DSD Recordings.
I'll see what they are, and post.

 

Mastering? I don't know. , posted on May 11, 2017 at 16:36:43
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10583
Joined: April 12, 2002
 Can't they Master on a Sonoma thingie?

 

RE: Mastering? I don't know. , posted on May 11, 2017 at 16:58:54
Ivan303
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Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 "The original session tracks were edited and rebalanced (which meant going through the mixer) in the only available format for that purpose; the Pyramix 352.8KHz/24bit PCM (DXD)."

To my knowledge, Sony had but never released the gear they developed which would allow mixing, editing, re-balancing and etc. in DSD.

Recall overhearing conversations with an engineer who used to work for SONY on just such a project, even recall he may have been discussing it with the same Jared Sacks.

But my lips are sealed. ;-)




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Mastering? I don't know. , posted on May 11, 2017 at 17:07:24
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10583
Joined: April 12, 2002
 Right, Pyramix, Blue Coast uses it.
I really thought it did multi rate DSD, tho.
That's how they use it, but maybe not comparable to what Jared is doing.

BTW, I had a nice experience today listening to my Clarinet Quartet recorded in DSD 64, played back in DSD 128.
Recorded here Tues night in my Dining Room, played in my Living Room w/HAP Z1.

Amazing sound from Consumer-Level Gear.
Excuse me, I have to go Worship at the DSD Alter.
DSD.
Not LSD.
Tho...

 

Dang, I have to wait till November and all I needed was an invite to dinner?, posted on May 11, 2017 at 17:19:47
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 November is a LONG time to wait, at my age. ;-)





First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Well, in any case, a very impressive recording. If it's on its way, I'd love to hear what you think compared , posted on May 11, 2017 at 19:17:18
jdaniel@jps.net
 to Adler.

 

If and when I can figure out how to play back 32/352.8k PCM, posted on May 11, 2017 at 21:14:46
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 which I ma pretty sure my DAC can handle (even if in truth it's likely only handles 16-18 bits even with 4 PCM1704's per channel).

If iTunes with Bit Perfect won't handle it (which it should) I'm pretty sure VLC Media Player will.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

The current Big Thing with HQ is DSD512. There , posted on May 11, 2017 at 23:03:25
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10583
Joined: April 12, 2002
 aren't any DSD 512 recordings, but what people just don't get is that Up sampling to DSD 128 and above sounds Great, no matter what file you start with.

 

I have a DSD 512 capable DAC..., posted on May 12, 2017 at 07:04:57
Ivan303
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Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001

Unfortunately, it's not very capable as a DAC. :-(

SMSL M8 pictured above sounds REALLY bad compared to my Audio-GD MAster-11 on 44.1 and up PCM.

The guy at HQPlayer (Jussi Laako?) seems to think that my iMac i7 is capable of upsampling to DSD 512 but I don't think that the SMSL would justify the effort.

As soon as I get my 'headless' Mac Mini and broken Thunderbold hard drive back from the shop, I may download the Channel Classics Mahler 3 in DXD/32/352.8k PCM just to try it. If it's exactly in the file format he uses when he masters, it might be something to hear.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Lebrecht's Reaction the Reverse. , posted on May 12, 2017 at 07:51:44
jdaniel@jps.net
 Interesting.

 

RE: I have a DSD 512 capable DAC..., posted on May 12, 2017 at 08:54:01
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10583
Joined: April 12, 2002
 I read at Computeraudiophle.com/HQ Thread that Macs Don't have DSD 512, only Windows.
I have no knowledge beyond that.
I doubt very strongly I'll move past what I've already got, ( DSD 128) unless Sony updates the Z1 (soon...!?).

 

You are correct..., posted on May 12, 2017 at 20:55:39
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 The original plan was to convert to DSD 512 using the iMac then send it over ethernet to a uRendu in my main system and then to a DSD 512 capable DAC.

Still haven't sprung for the uRendu because the Raspberry Pi just sounds too darned good!

OK, PCM only and limited to 24/192 via S/PDIF, but still...

I'm not using the Raspberry Pi in the main system, still MacMini which with iTunes and Bit Perfect should do 32/352.8k PCM so that might be the limit of my 'high sample rate' audio for now.

If I end up with a NAS drive with music on it I may get the uRendu for the main system and keep the Raspberry Pi at my living room easy chair headphone listing station, which gets the most use anyway. Wife uses the loft where the main system sits for watching TV and movies anyway.







First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Egads..., posted on May 15, 2017 at 10:10:19
srl1
Audiophile

Posts: 1339
Location: Florida Panhandle
Joined: September 2, 2003
 It worries me that my reaction is the same as Mr. Lebrecht's. As I said in my post, I found the last five movements to be near-great, but the first movement was bland, careful, smooth, etc. Thanks for the link, though.

 

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