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Which Mahler 2 to start with?

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Posted on April 12, 2017 at 17:33:53
hesson11
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I'm getting ready for next month's performance of the "Resurrection" by our local orchestra. I haven't really listened to the work in quite a while. Just for fun, I thought I'd run these candidates by you to get opinions on which one to start my listening prep with. They're what I've got on hand in physical media:

Bernstein
Kubelik
Sinopoli
Walter

What do you say?
-Bob

 

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RE: Which Mahler 2 to start with?, posted on April 12, 2017 at 17:53:29
merlinus
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 Bernstein. No one does Mahler like Lenny!

 

Yeah., posted on April 12, 2017 at 17:58:38
Kal Rubinson
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 Lenny's LSO is a good choice. His NYPO might raise too much expectation. ;-)

 

Bernstein's last on DGG. Best. Entrance. Of. Organ. Ever. nt, posted on April 12, 2017 at 18:35:08
jdaniel@jps.net
 .

 

My faves: Abbado (Lucerne 2004); Boulez (Vienna Phil.); and Tennstedt (London PO 1989), posted on April 12, 2017 at 18:43:53
John Marks
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Here are three semi- off-the-beaten-path recommendations. What they share in common is attention to fine details and a willingness to let the music unfold organically.

The real sleeper here is Abbado with a summer festival pickup orchestra. Amazing.

You can hear the music on Tidal and watch the video on Medici.

Best of luck,

jm

 

Depends On Whether You Want The Real Mahler or Polite Suburban Sedan Mahler, posted on April 12, 2017 at 19:07:17
Newey
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 The Walter's pretty good.

But, if you want all of the raw energy of Mahler - if you want the power with which Mahler himself wouldn've brought to his music - then there's only one - SOLTI/LSO on Decca London.

See that sketch of Mahler conducting? That's just one of many that Mahler inspired.

Now -- think for a moment. Think. Why would Mahler inspire such drawings? Such caricatures? And, who so many in the same vein?

Why? Was because he was gentle, kind, placid conductor?

Was because he conducted music the way listeners these days like to hear post-Beethoven repertoire - restrained, underplayed, stifled, underpowered, polite, reticent?

Or, because HE WAS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF THAT??

You decide.
Severius! Supremus Invictus

 

Sorry, not to rile you up, but Solti barely scratches the surface in either London or Chicago, though I prefer, posted on April 12, 2017 at 19:19:52
jdaniel@jps.net
 London for the more appropriate brass sound.

A conductor can be appropriately fiery yet still manage Mahler's more inward moments and passages with sensitivity.

More often than not, Solti doesn't have the right feel for Mahler or the Central European sound Mahler knew.

 

OK - but you beg questions in your reply, posted on April 12, 2017 at 19:43:40
Chris from Lafayette
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 Solti "barely scratches the surface"? Perhaps you should elaborate to help us discover what we should be listening for in order to know if a given conductor has "scratched the surface".

And, pray tell, what is the "right feel" for Mahler? Is it somehow tied up with the entrance of the organ, as suggested by your post below?

I used to have the Solti/LSO album in my LP days (I think it was my imprint version) - I liked it, but I still felt that Solti's approach was, in general, over energized.

 

"Over energized." You answered you own question. , posted on April 12, 2017 at 20:20:01
jdaniel@jps.net
 The Bernstein organ reply was a bit of light-hearted irony, though your black hole of a thread above surely sucked up everyone's patience for irony and jokes on this forum lately, include your own, apparently! : )

Honestly: the entrance of the organ is stunning. That said, Bernstein's first movt is a bit wayward, the second not as rustic as it could be (see Walter) but he comes into his own by the 3rd movt. The 5th is as apocalyptic and transcendent as one could want and--to bring us back to your request--compare the NYPO brass playing of the chorale leading up to the "Opening of the Graves" with Chicago's: the NYPO's burnished, yet powerful sound is a balm compared to the CSO's brass, which sound downright synthesized. I used to like the Herseth/Solti sound. Not anymore, sorry.

Anyway, yes, you put it best: Solti's over-energized. "Shock and awe" is certainly a must in Mahler, but my goodness, there's a lot of poetry between the lines too, that Solti, IMHO skates over. Take the ascending horn solo in the 1st movt: don't you wish Solti would allow the section to breathe a little? The only metaphor I can come up with off the top of my head is a leaf lofted by the wind: the best conductors let it float naturally. With Solti the lyrical sections remind me more of someone tugging on a kite. In a word: Solti has problems turning a phrase.

Compare Solti's 8th to Morris'. I imprinted on the former, but there's so much more material that Morris reveals, both lyrical and textural, that Solti flattens with his pile-driving approach. If you want real-world example, compare their orchestral interludes in Part II.

I suspect Newey will accuse me of preferring plush, limo Mahler but all I'm saying is that when attention paid to the more "mature" elements of Mahler's sound world, the shock and awe becomes even more powerful.


 

Thanks, posted on April 12, 2017 at 21:53:29
hesson11
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 Thank you for all the responses so far—even the ones that stray from my pictured nominees. :-)

Glad to also have stirred up a bit of a controversy along the way!
-Bob

 

Agreed on the Morris 8th... , posted on April 12, 2017 at 23:08:47
Jim Treanor
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 first heard on an Independent World Releases LP I picked up in 1975 at Garland Audio (along with an SP-3A, D-76, and Tympani 1C's that, unlike the LP, I no longer have).

Morris' ensemble, the "Symphonica of London", is itself a "pickup" group. But he and his producer picked well, not least in the vocal soloists they were able to round up. An expansive interpretation done well.


Jim

 

No - depends on whether you want the music itself or just histrionics, posted on April 13, 2017 at 00:53:21
andy evans
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 You don't have to buy into the histrionics in Mahler. You don't need a Bernstein swooning over the orchestra like he's saving the world. Mahler's music itself is plenty good enough to be played simply as music.

If you want to hear the music in Symphony 2, listen to Boulez or Gielen, or Klemperer for that matter. Intelligent, musical..... you don't need more than that. It's quite enough.

 

RE: Which Mahler 2 to start with?, posted on April 13, 2017 at 04:43:03
vahe
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 And, if you have a playback system that can reproduce high dynamics with minimal compression the Channel Classics SACD of Fischer/BFO is worth a try, it is a decent performance for a change.

 

Klemperer..., posted on April 13, 2017 at 06:05:49
Paul_A
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 ...does it for me. He imparts a sense of grandeur that when you hear it, sounds like the only way to play it. Although, of course there are other ways. But Walter just doesn't do it for me.

 

RE: Which Mahler 2 to start with?, posted on April 13, 2017 at 06:23:45
Kas
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 Of those four, I'd start with Walter. I think that Kubelik's studio Mahler pales beside the live recordings available on Audite. As for Bernstein, I think that recording is the worst of his three recordings of the work.

Among recent recordings, I am impressed by Paavo Jarvi's on Virgin.

 

Ahh, poor Solti, posted on April 13, 2017 at 07:05:50
rbolaw
 I think in the sharp hindsight of history, he was let down a bit by Decca's producers and recording engineers by the "juiced up" sonics of much of that Mahler set. It may have been state of the art at the time, or appropriate for the lesser speakers and playback equipment that was then common (my Dad didn't even get a stereo system until 1968) but today we know better, and even the "juicing up" is more subtle and sophisticated.
I was lucky to hear Solti and the CSO in the concert hall many times, and that's what I think of when I think of him.
Still, Newey, you'll be glad to know, I like that set.

 

His Mahler 2nd was my first. , posted on April 13, 2017 at 07:31:07
jdaniel@jps.net
 But then Kubelik revealed the irony and Bavarian brass sound to me.
Klemperer. the rustic heart.
Bernstein, the "spirituality."
Walter, the folksy pair-bonding fun.

But then, all of the above come up short elsewhere:

Kubelik is a bit too expedient, much like Solti.
Shock and Awe just wasn't part of Walter's bag of tricks.
Bernstein doesn't press forward enough.
Klemperer....

 

Isn't it amazing how Morris can take Part 1 at a slower speed yet it has more propulsion? nt, posted on April 13, 2017 at 07:47:01
jdaniel@jps.net
 In Part II, one can actually hear those three piano/harp rolled chords (!) right before the mandolin entrance.

 

"Bernstein doesn't press forward enough", posted on April 13, 2017 at 08:01:13
Chris from Lafayette
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 That's because Bernstein is too busy gilding the lily and over-emphasizing that organ entrance! ;-)

BTW, as you may remember, I've heard YOUR very copy of the Bernstein Resurrection Symphony (a bit of it anyway) when we were over at Robert C. Lang's house with Jared Sacks in 2010. (Wow - has it been that long?)

Also BTW, what is "folksy pair-bonding fun" and what does it have to do with the Mahler Second? ;-)

 

LOL. Only 10..........so far. But wait, more inmates may reply and the list will get longer. , posted on April 13, 2017 at 08:11:41
Rick W
 The results are predictably all over the map, just like asking "Which monitor speakers should I check out?" on Speakers, or "Which dac sounds the most natural?" on Digital, or "Which under $1,000 cartridge do you recommend?" on Vinyl etc.

Do a Search for Mahler 2nd Symphony in the archives and you'll find plenty more versions rec'd. Hopefully you'll be able to narrow it down to a mere 30 or so solid AA rec's for conductors who "really understand Mahler". By the time you get done checking them out you may find a fave, but you'll never want to hear the piece again. Happy listening :-)

 

RE: LOL. Only 10..........so far. But wait, more inmates may reply and the list will get longer. , posted on April 13, 2017 at 08:45:18
hesson11
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Posts: 2281
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 Haha! I pretty much knew that, Rick, but thought this might be fun and, perhaps, informative. Thanks.
-Bob

 

Sticking with your nominees..., posted on April 13, 2017 at 08:50:27
Doktor Brahms
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 I would choose Bernstein. Those Columbia LPs were my entry point to the Resurrection Symphony and to other Mahler symphonies as well. Then I tried Solti...better sonics, but not as satisfying somehow.

 

If you get the chance before the concert watch this performance, posted on April 13, 2017 at 08:54:16
Sibelius
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 Here is a Youtube video of the second with Dudamel and his SBYSO (well, not so much the youth part) with Anna Larsen and Miah Persson. BBC Proms performance. I always enjoy watching and listening. I wish I could find a hard copy of the performance, no luck so far.

 

I was tempted to throw in a couple more - but I restrained myself! ;-), posted on April 13, 2017 at 08:56:26
Chris from Lafayette
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 We're all like blind men trying to describe an elephant based on what part of the animal they've touched (or, in our case, the subset of recordings of a given work we've actually heard!). As I've mentioned before, the closest I've come to hearing every available recording of a given standard repertoire work is with the Mahler Fifth, where I have (or have had) over 80 different recordings - but even in this work, I think that number represents only about half the total recordings that have been issued. And the more recordings of a given work I've heard, the less I've become convinced that there even is such a thing as "the best" one. Sure, I've got some favorites, but that's not the same, since each person's criteria include so many personal, subjective elements.

 

RE: "Bernstein doesn't press forward enough", posted on April 13, 2017 at 09:07:42
jdaniel@jps.net
 No no no. : ) Bernstein gilds the lily too much in the 1st mov't. As for the choral finale, Mahler saved so many surprises from his toy box for the end, why rush it? We've got:

"Langsam" at fig. 46, later the directive is "somewhat" pressing, then somewhat cautious right before fig 47. "More motion" at fig 47. A four measure ritard before fig 48 and the Pesante indication, and, significantly: a great *unfolding* of power. We're also back to 4/4 from 2/2; symbolic?

Personally, I think Bernstein is more in the ball park than Solti, and others who take the finale at a relatively breezy tempo. Mahler doesn't warn the conductor about dragging, unless I missed the indication.

The Finale is a risk that pays-off, IMHO. He keeps it going with carefully graded crescendi. Gets me every time, and that's a rarity these days.

As for pair-bonding fun, the 2nd mov't is a landler after all.

 

Just giving you a hard time!, posted on April 13, 2017 at 11:16:20
Chris from Lafayette
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 But one thing that does strike me whenever I listen to symphonic works with a score is how often various conductors will ignore various indications (dynamics, speed adjustments, articulation specifications, etc.). Chamber and solo performances seem to me to be more scrupulous in this regard.

 

Chris, if you've really owned 80 recordings of ANY piece......., posted on April 13, 2017 at 12:06:36
Rick W
 either you desperately need me to send you a shipment of drugs or I desperately need the drugs you ingest.

Holy Gustav, JHC, OMG and a screaming Yowza!!!

 

I think there are people on this board who have. . . , posted on April 13, 2017 at 12:38:58
Chris from Lafayette
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 . . . more recordings of other individual works than I do of the Mahler Fifth - I'm thinking of Amphissa perhaps with certain works of Rachmaninoff, and there was one poster a few years ago who, I think, mentioned that he had over a hundred recordings of the Sibelius Second Symphony!

As for all my recordings of the Mahler Fifth, I was actually encouraged in this pursuit by my wife, who was on a quest for the perfect recording of that work (at least for her!), and she finally decided on a recording on the Acousence label by Jonathan Darling and the Duisberg Philharmonic. It's interesting that she ended up choosing an audiophile (2-channel) recording, even though she professes not to care about audiophile matters at all! ;-)

 

That's why I said to go with the biggest organ entry. Nt, posted on April 13, 2017 at 12:41:41
jdaniel@jps.net
 K

 

No worries, it's not as if I responded with veiled death threats. : ) nt, posted on April 13, 2017 at 12:53:37
jdaniel@jps.net
 O

 

RE: A sleeper stumbled over, posted on April 13, 2017 at 13:25:19
kitch29
 Friend and I were going through the stacks at a Portland warehouse type store and I came across this:


Great dynamics, thunder when appropriate, delicate where delicate needs to be and a credible job by the instrumental soloists. The Utah Symphony won't be mistaken for any of the great orchestras but the ambience of the Mormon Tabernacle hall helps.

Sills and Kopleff are superb.

 

RE: Which Mahler 2 to start with?, posted on April 13, 2017 at 13:26:59
fstein
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 Why has no one mentioned Mehta?

 

aargh. nt, posted on April 13, 2017 at 13:52:33
Rick W
 nt

 

RE: I think there are people on this board who have. . . , posted on April 13, 2017 at 14:08:31
Rick W
 All I can say is........

 

Yeah - and, BTW, which Mehta? , posted on April 13, 2017 at 14:16:47
Chris from Lafayette
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 I'm assuming you mean the Decca/London recording with the VPO, but I used to have his Teldec DVD-Audio with the Israel Philharmonic - it was good too. AND it was in multi-channel! ;-)

 

Oh! You mean like some people here? [nt] ;-), posted on April 13, 2017 at 14:19:02
Chris from Lafayette
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Solti LSO, posted on April 13, 2017 at 14:54:26
pbarach
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 I like the performance, but it always seems to me that the recording engineer jacked up the volume of the basses at the very beginning. Not an appealing effect; the music speaks for itself.

I want to put in a vote for Tennstedt/LPO on LPO Live; it's an exciting and well-recorded performance. Mehta/Vienna is another good one.

 

Well, it's an important moment to get right. Mahler said he was so tempted to employ it earlier , posted on April 13, 2017 at 17:36:33
jdaniel@jps.net
 in the symphony, but didn't want to dilute the impact at the end.

 

The aargh was 'cause I thought it was a double entendre :-) nt nt, posted on April 13, 2017 at 22:55:24
Rick W
 nt

 

RE: Agreed on the Morris 8th... , posted on April 14, 2017 at 07:50:37
johngladneyproffitt
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 Morris Mahler 8 and 10 now remastered and released on HDTT download and physical disc.
John Proffitt

 

I thought that's what you thought! nt, posted on April 14, 2017 at 11:27:04
D Harvey
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 he he
dh

 

OK, "grandest" organ entry. : ) nt, posted on April 14, 2017 at 11:35:59
jdaniel@jps.net
 N

 

If only the Soprano 1 hadn't gone flat on her soft, floated high Bb in the end. McConnell w/Tennstedt perfect, posted on April 14, 2017 at 11:40:15
jdaniel@jps.net
 N

 

RE: Which Mahler 2 to start with?, posted on April 15, 2017 at 21:48:20
learsfool
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Posts: 1001
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 I see someone else has already mentioned the Abbado Lucerne recordings, which are fantastic performances. His recording of it with the Chicago Symphony done in the 80s is also a fantastic performance - he gets a whole lot more color out of the CSO than Solti did.

 

Yes! I hear similar engineering mischief in other Solti/Mahler recordings too! [nt], posted on April 16, 2017 at 00:30:40
Chris from Lafayette
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RE: Which Mahler 2 to start with -- Kubelik, Levine (nt), posted on April 17, 2017 at 11:33:31
goldenthal
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 n

 

Agreed., posted on April 17, 2017 at 13:11:55
Kal Rubinson
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 The entire Abbado/Lucerne series in multichannel (with or without the video) is a treasure.

 

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