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Comparisons of Cellists

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Posted on March 26, 2017 at 10:56:05
Frihed89
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 I don't know if this is actually true or not, but I sometimes sense that comparisons among cellists are often based on their performances of J.S. Bach's Unaccompanied Cello Suites. Is this because they are hard to play, or because they leave a lot of room for interpretation and this allows strong personal preferences of listeners to come into play a great deal, or because... they are so easy to play?

 

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Interesting question, posted on March 26, 2017 at 11:23:58
Chris from Lafayette
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 I can only say that my own comparisons of cellists are actually NOT based so much on the Bach Suites - which, as you say, leave a lot of room for interpretation. I did play cello in elementary and middle school, but I never had a private teacher and never advanced very far, so I can't entirely assess how difficult these suites are. I will say however that some of the movements do appear in the early Suzuki books, so that would lead me to believe that these particular movements can't be that hard. So in these cases (e.g., the Bouree in the Third Suite), you're probably hearing exactly what the performer wants to convey musically, unconstrained by technical difficulties.

For a while, I was getting worried that I was getting "stuck in time" (a state which I often accuse my vinyl friends of getting into) in my preferences for Fournier's DG and Starker's Mercury recordings of the Bach Suites. However, I've added a new favorite to those classic recordings: cellist and Elle model Nina Kotova's set from 2014. So now I feel more up to date!

The markers I use for comparisons of cellists are pretty standard: intonation, tone quality, bow control, etc. And of course, musical interpretation and taste enter into the equation too. Preferences are always bound to be a very personal thing.


Not too shabby looking for someone in her 40's!

 

The Bach Suites seem to be the "Stairway" of cellists..., posted on March 26, 2017 at 12:14:07
musetap
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 wether some novice in a BART station or a master like Starker who chose to reinterpret it several times.

They offer a wonderful canvas for interpretation/mood/beauty/tonality/breadth of the instrument
which is why I have some two dozen versions.

I believe that is where their strength and appeal reside.

I imagine they are as easy or difficult to play as one wants to indulge in.

Technically there are much more difficult 'cello pieces to explore.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure




 

I love that comparison., posted on March 26, 2017 at 13:17:51
rbolaw
 Of course, that train station player could be very far from a novice. And your comments could be applied to much of Bach's music. It can withstand a whole lot of reshaping, unusual adaptations and interpretive freedom. It's no accident Wendy Carlos and Jacques Loussier used it.
I play much of the Bach unaccompanied violin and cello music on the flute, and there's one sonata originally written for the flute too. It never gets old.
I can't agree that it isn't difficult technically, though. It's a real workout and takes a lot of concentration, slow movements very much included.

 

RE: I love that comparison., posted on March 26, 2017 at 13:33:23
musetap
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 I don't imagine the Suites are easy to play. If you compare, say Casals groundbreaking recordings with, say, Matt Hamovitz', the technical progress/prowess over the intervening 60 plus years is staggering - and that's coming from someone that appreciates such implementations but doesn't have the knowledge to discuss them technically.

So, in that sense the Suites remain either difficult (depending on how far you want/can take that) or "easy" to play, in that you can play them ... or not.

Wellness of such is where the magic lays.

Hell, just attempting to memorizing them would do me in.

The basic construction of all Bach's works makes for the most marvelous of interpretations - it's an entire universe of invention and reinvention without loosing the core values.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: I love that comparison., posted on March 26, 2017 at 17:29:59
ahendler
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 I play a lot of Bach on classical guitar. None of it is easy
Alan

 

True, I'm no flutist so can't say for a "classical player, but.... , posted on March 26, 2017 at 17:54:03
Rick W
 the few violin/cello pieces I had were a bitch for me on flute. I don't have the kind of air stream control that a real flute player has. Thing is, they're so beautiful, pure and enjoyable to play.

This reminded me to look for that music - haven't shed it for quite a while. I liked (shudder) playing it on alto/soprano saxophone in a jazz style too, improvising at different spots as the mood struck, then returning to written notes.

I only have the Casals Bach suites and don't really dig his version that much. Too damn stiff and I don't care for his time. To me, a lotta classical soloists have lame rhythmic conceptions.

 

You just summed up the Casals very well..., posted on March 26, 2017 at 18:02:42
musetap
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 progress HAS been made over the decades!

You might dig the Haimovitz, there's some nice improv and a certain... swing... to sections.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

Constant playing w/ no rests is really hard on WW's. That being said , posted on March 26, 2017 at 18:11:31
oldmkvi
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 I heard a clarinet player playing a Choro on You Tube a few years ago, that went on for 5 min with NO breaks.
Circular Breathing, and a couple of squeaks, Very impressive.

 

RE: Comparisons of Cellists, posted on March 26, 2017 at 20:42:25
Mike K
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 Do you know the difference between and cello and a double bass? The
cello burns more quickly.

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

Who are the masters at this?, posted on March 27, 2017 at 03:00:53
Frihed89
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 I have a number of Bream and Williams albums. Who are the others?

A week ago, I was at a bookshop in Copenhagen to hear Christian Sievert perform, a local guitarist who is far from the top of the heap, but still intriguing, with his own style, and lovely to listen to.

 

The circular breathing king, posted on March 27, 2017 at 09:19:36
rbolaw
 on the flute is Robert Dick, without question. I've heard him use it in classical music but he usually uses it with his contemporary stuff. I've heard it successfully used on the clarinet, too.

 

You're right about that., posted on March 27, 2017 at 09:44:11
rbolaw
 I would like to have heard Casals when he was younger than he was in his Bach suites recording, and he did lead the way, but I must agree that progress has been made, as you say.

 

RE: The circular breathing king, posted on March 27, 2017 at 11:36:43
oldmkvi
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 Where does Robt Dick play? I recognize the name.
Carey Bell, Prin Cl in SFS can do it.
There was a R. Strauss Couperain Suite we played in SF Ballet, all upper register Clarinet part, fast, tounged, he nailed w/C.B.! ( before he was in SFS)

 

Guess using it for certain parts may be good, but I'm not a fan of circular breathing. , posted on March 27, 2017 at 12:22:18
Rick W
 Sounds like what it is to me - an unnatural effect. Space is good. Wish pianists and string players had to breath. I never liked jazz pianists whose solos are an endless stream of notes without pause.

 

RE: The circular breathing king, posted on March 27, 2017 at 15:25:15
rbolaw
 Robert Dick is a Yale School of Music alum who studied flute with Julius Baker and composition with Jacob Druckman and has had an active solo career for a long time and many CDs. He's most famous for his new music and extended techniques such as circular breathing, multiphonics, glissandos and whisper tones, and he literally wrote the book on extended techniques for the flute: The Other Flute, published by Oxford University Press. He plays a lot in the hip clubs of Brooklyn, where he now lives, but he lived in Europe for years and has performed all over the world.
An interesting guy who works in many styles, classical, jazz, rock, world music, improvisation, you name it.
I have to agree with Rick, circular breathing isn't right for everything, but Robert sure can put on an amazing show with it.

 

"Wish pianists and string players had to breath[e]", posted on March 27, 2017 at 16:57:24
Chris from Lafayette
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 Some of us (pianists) play with singers and wind/brass players, and we get schooled! ;-)

 

RE: True, I'm no flutist so can't say for a "classical player, but.... , posted on March 27, 2017 at 18:43:51
Travis
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 I so agree with you about classical folks and time. Their concept does not relate at all to jazz, time or conceptually. Only clarinetist I've ever heard who could cut both is Eddie Daniels.

I will never forget that gawdawful CD that Richard Stolzman made with Woody's band after he passed. Ever hear it? Oh, boy.

I also agree about CB. Seems like an excuse NOT to phrase. Except, of course, Rahsaan, but I think it wound up killing him.






"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

 

So would you say that she's an 8?, posted on March 29, 2017 at 13:38:20
Paul_A
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 or maybe a 9? Incidentally, I always got Playboy for the articles.

 

Given her age, she's pretty remarkable, no matter what!, posted on March 31, 2017 at 00:50:57
Chris from Lafayette
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 I'm talking about her PLAYING of course!

 

RE: Guess using it for certain parts may be good, but I'm not a fan of circular breathing. , posted on April 1, 2017 at 19:34:49
goldenthal
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 Re breathing strings, hear the Yale Quartet play Mozart K 421!


Jeremy

 

RE: Casals's Age, posted on April 1, 2017 at 19:40:50
goldenthal
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 I wonder if it is more a matter of his Bach-interpretation era than of his age. He was a good deal older (than when he recorded the Bach) when he conducted an extraordinarily muscular and energetic Mozart 40th at, I seem to recall, Glyndebourne.


Jeremy

 

RE: Interesting question -- Remember what Schanbel said . . ., posted on April 1, 2017 at 19:45:00
goldenthal
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 about Mozart -- easy for children; difficult for adults.


Jeremy

 

Schnabel's saying is true only if the adults are growing demented [nt] ;-), posted on April 2, 2017 at 00:18:22
Chris from Lafayette
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RE: Comparisons of Cellists, posted on April 6, 2017 at 12:31:22
bald2
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 There are a number of other fantastic cellists to consider, many of whom made wonderful recordings of the Bach suites. Here are a few I particularly like:

Andre Navarra: Bach is available on SACD
Paul Tortelier: recorded the full repertoire over a long career, with the Bach suites twice ( I prefer the first set)

Maurice Gendron: Perhaps my very favorite of the old school players. Gendron, Fournier and Navarra all had the same teacher at the French Conservatory and were all great virtuosi.

Danil Shafran: only recorded a few of the suites but he was an incredible player

And then there are HIP players (sorry Chris) worth considering, such as Anner Bylsma and Jordi Savall (Bach sonatas with keyboard)

All that being said, I adore the Bach cello suites on Theorbo and the recording of Bach and De Visee by Pascal Montelheit has demonstration sonics and beautiful performances:

https://www.amazon.com/Suites-Theorbo-Pascal-Monteilhet/dp/B00080JDOQ

Harry

 

Shafran..., posted on April 7, 2017 at 06:46:44
Kas
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 ...actually recorded all of the suites, although 2 through 5 have been issued more frequently. There are several issues of the complete set on Amazon, including the one I have linked below.

 

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