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Vietnam War. Big Tobacco. Global warming (fossil fuels). Iraq War.

136.37.101.134
Posted on September 22, 2021 at 06:42:41
tinear
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 Covid-19.

Major news organs have (if they aspire to "fairness")an unbreachable firewall between factual reporting, i.e. how many died in a battle, and opinion, whether or not that loss of life was justifiable. These two services are also clearly delineated in the paper--- or on their news programming.

None of the traditionally linked MSM news organs breached this in the above mentioned stories.

Of course, they did report, over time, misinformation given to them by corporate or government figures of authority: false tobacco studies; underreporting of deaths in Vietnam and claimed strategic successes. In both instances, however, the sources were given; later on, when study showed these were tainted, that was reported--- this was found through investigation. There is a problem with news reporting that is unfortunate: news must be timely. When a government source gives an official report, it is the responsibility of the agency to report it, i.e. Iraq has missiles. To present an independent source that may contradict this isn't always possible---- and by the time it could be found, the other report already has been taken by the non-skeptical as "truth." Is this a conspiracy on the part of news?

In looking at this group of major stories from decades ago to the present, I fail to see how a Deep State was at work. Not long after the Vietnam War heated up, in the mid-60s, there was a change in many (not all) MSM opinion pieces, fueled by politicians who took the lead in opposition. Did the WSJ or other conservative news outlets agree?

Please note, I am not making of this a political discussion; the topic is whether or not there is such a thing as corporate/plutocratic coordinated control of our MSM.

There is a huge difference between being skeptical ("Maybe this is true.") and cynical, ("This obviously is false or misleading."). And the MSM I frequent make mistakes--- but they are few-and-far between and ALWAYS retracted or corrected.

Destroy all faith in professional news and journalism and you are really at the mercy of crackpots, small organizations of whackos with social media savvy, and the rumor mill.

 

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Too many big topics! But I'll take a crack a few of them..., posted on September 22, 2021 at 12:54:40
vacuous
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 Yup, news organizations are supposed to separate fact from opinion. Print newspapers & their online counterparts tend to reliably observe these boundaries. But some television news channels have been rather opinion heavy in recent years.

Yup, reporting of news frequently gets bent by prepackaged government pablum. But govt is not the only party with an agenda. Corporations, public advocacy organizations, non-profits, and others often shout quite loudly to push their point of view. It's up to news organizations to sort it all out, and it's never a simple job. Top that off with news organizations being imperfect in the first place. They're often trigger happy when covering a story, not adequately checking their sources, and sometimes they run sensational stories just to grab eyeballs. All that notwithstanding, print journalism in the USA is still mostly upright, while television news is wobbling, and online journalism is often completely unreliable.

There is a good thread yesterday about whether or not a 'deep state' exists in the USA. The general public likes to believe in this sort of thing (they also like flying saucers, big foot, tin foil hats, and ivermectin too). Better sources on this topic include Wikipedia, which tags the 'deep state' as a conspiracy theory. I trust Wikipedia. Most people? Probably not... They've got Facebook!

Is the US media controlled by corporate plutocrats? Not liking to admit this, but it seems that's pretty much the case. Rich billionaires control a large portion of print and televised journalism. Honest journalism pokes through most of the time, but not all of the time. The worst case of bent journalism in my opinion is that of the Murdoch media empire, which is extensive and effective at manipulating public opinion.

I think journalism in the USA is surviving well enough, despite the collapse of print media, despite corporate and plutocratic ownership, and despite the downgrading of the public mind through social media. Journalism is a well established profession, still has a code of ethics, and somehow succeeds in reporting most stories with factual accuracy.

Just my quick opinions, mostly half-baked. I ain't no expert on any of these things.

 

Here's my take on MSM: it's held to a very different standard by those who, posted on September 22, 2021 at 15:01:32
tinear
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 get their "news" from small, politically explicit blogs, social media. ONE mistake by MSM and it's held up to be some sort of conspiracy, as evidence of some evil, nefarious intent to mislead. When talking heads on Youtube and other social media conjure up and repeat lies, as a daily habit, they are never held to account, their followers either double down, convinced fact is fiction (or vice-versa) or just ignore it all. Cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias drive all of this.

These unaccountable rumor spreaders never have to name a source--- and that's a very different situation from an established news agency that says it has a source that is "a government source that requests anonymity." The difference is an editor that holds the reporter responsible; that person's career is on the line for that story--- and he or she must have corroborative reports before publishing.

Ivermectin is a classic example: how many times have guys who foreswear MSM posted misinformation on this site, obviously crap they've read on social media? They still, even after many fellow inmates have corrected them, and sometimes they've even acknowledged they're mistakes, continue to parrot other equally bogus claims, "Okay, I was wrong about this and that--- but THIS is true!" (same source)

 

Of course, there is, posted on September 22, 2021 at 15:50:51
jedrider
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 You think news media wants to be shunned like the Dixie Chicks were?

That's why one should always have some alternative news outlets that have a chance of telling the truth, and the whole truth at that, not leaving out important details, such as that there never was any evidence that Sadam Hussein was stockpiling WMD.

 

So the question is, which news sources are the most reliable?, posted on September 22, 2021 at 15:56:26
vacuous
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 Traditional print media newspapers and their online venues appear to be the most trustworthy. That being true despite the fact of their corporate ownership. Some people here (Comrade Chris screams loudly) claim that corporate ownership entirely undermines the integrity of these publications. That's a legitimate concern, putting a question to the independence of these publications. What redeems traditional print news journalism is that it is an established profession with a long history, does have clear ethical standards, and is subject to the oversight of the Federal Communications Commission.

The internet has certainly upset this apple cart. The proliferation online news, blogs, and social media has become more of a hindrance than a gateway for public information & enlightenment. The most obvious problem is that Facebook, Google, Twitter, and other social media are not subject to any oversight from an organization such as the FCC. That's why disinformation and conspiracy spreads so readily today. There are almost no rules in place to restrain the glut of nonsense that circulates on these social media platforms.

The solution is to subject the internet, especially the internet giants Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Netflix, and Google, to the same sort of rules that print newspapers have to follow. The internet needs its own version of the FCC.

 

RE: Vietnam War. Big Tobacco. Global warming (fossil fuels). Iraq War. , posted on September 22, 2021 at 22:08:41
beach cruiser
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 I take a simple approach , using the known historical facts as my guide. A free press is essential for a free people, that is why dictators shut down the press as the first order of business.

There is a great difference between someone selling information as a useful product , verses someone getting paid millions to generate income selling fear distrust and grievance .

Attacks on a free press are the first warning signs of a free society in trouble, as history has recorded when someone says to ignore every source except for what I tell you, you are either listening to a cult leader or someone with a political agenda that doesn't include democracy.

The deep state is just a fiction with a bumper sticker name. Our government has been persistent since the 1700's it is not a secret society of evil doers.

Governments are formed to provide for the common good, to do things that an individual cannot, like build a road , fund a military or enforce food safety.. We used to be an example of democracy and freedom for the entire world, but have fallen under attack lately at ever turn, by people using the flag as a fetish object.

Since government is the only institution powerful enough to resist the extremely wealthy , it is always under attack by those who would profit with less government. Personally I like going to the beach, or visiting a national park. Without a government for the people, those areas would be private and only seen by the few who could afford to have a house there.

 

The problem is confusing opinion with news., posted on September 23, 2021 at 04:40:19
ghost of olddude55
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 And news outlets often blur the line as much as possible, usually to satisfy ownership.
If you avoid opinion, they're all about the same when it comes to news.



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

That's a whole lot different than deliberate dissemination of disinformation., posted on September 23, 2021 at 11:25:23
vacuous
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 A good example: "Stop the Steal!" A slogan alleging that Trump actually won the US presidential election, but that Biden stole it. Deliberate, fabricated, and false.

This isn't just a matter of separating opinion from fact. Huge numbers of people believed in this bogus post-campaign propaganda. And it's exactly the kind of thing that's divides and undermines our democracy in the USA.

How else to stop this gross conning of the public other than through regulation and law? I wanna see a legal clamp down on the cons, cheats, and bad actors that spread damaging public falsehoods.

 

That would be ideal, but that genie is probably out of the bottle..., posted on September 23, 2021 at 12:03:13
MWE
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 permanently, to our society's great detriment.


Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

But that's opinion. It's propaganda., posted on September 23, 2021 at 12:51:11
ghost of olddude55
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 It's not news, and it's easy to tell the difference. The problem is that there are too many people who either can't or don't want to tell the difference.
The government can't clamp down because you can't use the law to force people not to be willfully ignorant.




The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

Nope (as I see it.) Opinion, however warped, is tolerable. Outright lies should never be tolerated. (nt), posted on September 23, 2021 at 13:11:54
vacuous
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 .

 

RE: Nope (as I see it.) Opinion, however warped, is tolerable. Outright lies should never be tolerated. (nt), posted on September 23, 2021 at 13:26:42
nilknarf
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 Right. And that leads right back to the start. Who decides what is true. It really should be each individual gets to decide their own truth. Anything less is tyranny.

 

Now, THAT would be interesting. And likely the end of human society. nt. , posted on September 23, 2021 at 13:34:00
MWE
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Posts: 2202
Location: Burlington, NC
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 Nt.


Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

But who watches the watchmen?, posted on September 23, 2021 at 13:38:45
ghost of olddude55
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 Imagine the previous attorney general deciding what is and what isn't propaganda. What could possibly go wrong?
In my opinion, what's really happening is that people are being told what they want to hear. They already believe in nonsense; as long as there's money in giving them more of it, there's no way to stop it.




The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

We're already there., posted on September 23, 2021 at 13:42:23
ghost of olddude55
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 My brother-in-law refused to accept my definition of "xenophobia" until I sent him a picture of the page from a 1972 edition of Webster's.
It was word-for-word the same as the definition from Wikipedia, but he claims that Wikipedia is part of a Marxist conspiracy to change the meanings of words and would not accept anything from Wikipedia.




The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

Who watches the watchmen? A free press does that job! It's the best way to hold govt to account., posted on September 23, 2021 at 13:55:35
vacuous
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 The blurb below is taken from an ACLU web page (linked).

"The freedom of the press, protected by the First Amendment, is critical to a democracy in which the government is accountable to the people. A free media functions as a watchdog that can investigate and report on government wrongdoing. It is also a vibrant marketplace of ideas, a vehicle for ordinary citizens to express themselves and gain exposure to a wide range of information and opinions."

 

RE: Who watches the watchmen? A free press does that job! It's the best way to hold govt to account., posted on September 23, 2021 at 14:09:32
nilknarf
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 problem solved!

It would be an interesting experiment to punish people that interfere with Freedom of the Press. And the First Amendment too.

 

But the problem is that people who eat up propaganda don't believe in the press is free., posted on September 23, 2021 at 14:47:29
ghost of olddude55
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 They think the free press is propaganda and they look for somebody who'll tell them what they want to hear even if what they want to hear is harmful bullshit that can get them killed.
And again, who is the arbiter of what is and what isn't free press? If we aren't going to tolerate the OANs and Infowars of this world, who has the authority to shut them down? You can't possibly do it with a flurry of investigative articles in the NYT for obvious reasons.
You can't give government that power either, or you'll end up with RT.



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

Yup. Can't stop a nation of dolts from drinking from a poisoned well..., posted on September 23, 2021 at 15:22:42
vacuous
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 But them dolts and their opinions are in a minority. I think... Well, not really sure about that either. Anyways, the rest of us can sip from better quality new sources. I pledge my allegiance to the NYT, Washington Post, Guardian, BBC, Financial Times, PBS News Hour, and a few other less demented media outlets. I think our mass media ain't yet completely broken, but sure could use a tune-up on the internet side of things. Already extremist crap is being voluntarily deleted by Google, Twitter, Facebook, and that's at least some janitorial control of human waste. But those are token fixes by them internet giants, and I'm not convinced. I want federal level regulation of the internet, just like the FCC has oversight over print, radio, and TV. The internet is relatively new technology and the law just hasn't caught up with it. Yet. Without proper oversight, disinformation is becoming mainstream and public IQ continues to plummet. I'm all for more law and order on the internet side of things. Them's my opinions, to be updated as I figure this stuff out.

 

RE: But the problem is that people who eat up propaganda don't believe in the press is free., posted on September 23, 2021 at 15:28:47
rivervalley817
 experience, skepticism, and deductive reasoning are pretty good protections against BS as propaganda uses inductive reasoning as grist

once the lowest common denominators are sussed out the rest usually falls into place

it's the skeptical angle that trips up the inexperienced via Dunning-Kruger

they mistake being jaded for skepticism while not being experienced enough to be truly jaded ... sort of a 'Black Swan' dynamic

with regards,

 

RE: Yup. Can't stop a nation of dolts from drinking from a poisoned well..., posted on September 23, 2021 at 15:30:48
rivervalley817
 'Can't stop a nation of dolts from drinking from a poisoned well'

so we'll charge them for it and tell them it's ambrosia!

brilliant!

 

I read WaPo..., posted on September 23, 2021 at 15:48:50
ghost of olddude55
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 ...because my wife has a subscription. Don't care for the NYT. We've got two formerly print outfits in Pittsburgh, one is the allegedly liberal Post-Gazette (which is actually owned by a hard right Trump supporter) and the Tribune-Review (which no longer publishes a print edition at all and was founded by notorious right wing loony Richard Mellon Scaife).
The Trib is actually a better source for news. We had major flooding here in the wake of Hurricane Ida and the PG didn't update its website with any news about it until after the fact.
The opinion stuff in the Trib though is toxic.



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

You really think Congress is going to repeal the 1996 Telecommunications Act?, posted on September 23, 2021 at 16:01:08
ghost of olddude55
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 That's what it would take. Lobbyists for the telecom industry and Silicon Valley will never allow it to happen.
And again, people don't believe what they believe because they read it on Infowars or heard Tucker Carlson say on TV.
They believed it before there ever was an Infowars or a Fox News. Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson tell the audience what the audience wants to hear because there's a lot of money in it.
But the key is, the audience wants to hear it. Those people already believed that stuff.



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

Well, there used to be something called the Fairness Doctrine. Lasted for decades., posted on September 23, 2021 at 16:57:25
vacuous
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 From Wikipedia:

"Required the holders of broadcast licenses both to present controversial issues of public importance and to do so in a manner that was honest, equitable, and balanced."

But that got repealed a few years back. Attempts at reinstating the Fairness Doctrine in Congress have repeatedly failed. Yup, you are right Ghost. The system is rigged and we are doomed to a dystopian media landscape.

 

RE: Well, there used to be something called the Fairness Doctrine. Lasted for decades., posted on September 23, 2021 at 17:26:29
nilknarf
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 It was the same problem and always comes back to who gets to decide. I wouldn't want to be the decider. Either everybody decides for themselves or we task aoc with that. At least she would relish the job.

 

We DO need the Fairness Doctrine back, but no way that's going to happen. nt. , posted on September 23, 2021 at 18:36:40
MWE
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 Nt.


Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

EVERYONE has decisions made for them, often without being aware of it. It's an intrinsic part of life. nt. , posted on September 23, 2021 at 18:40:55
MWE
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Posts: 2202
Location: Burlington, NC
Joined: June 8, 2000
 Nt.


Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

RE: Vietnam War. Big Tobacco. Global warming (fossil fuels). Iraq War. , posted on September 23, 2021 at 18:43:20
pictureguy
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 You bet a free press is important.....Vital, even.

too bad ALL facets of the current 4th Estate, all of 'em. are so incompetent. No 'digging' from most of 'em while a large group parrots and reprints talking points. Take your pick as from 'which side'...
Not my idea of news. I'd LOVE to see a real semi-free for all INTERVIEW.

I can think of half a dozen issues / items from BOTH sides of the Aisle which could use a good 'dig'....
Who were those 2 guys from years ago? Siskel and Ebert? Mutt and Jeff? Who ever they were, we could use 'em today. A couple young people with GUTS.

Follow the money was NEVER more true than it is today. Just more arrogantly displayed....
Too much is never enough

 

so true that. nt, posted on September 23, 2021 at 18:50:33
nilknarf
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 so true that.

 

I agree... opinion is "tolerable", but should be advertised as such..., posted on September 24, 2021 at 04:49:22
dark_dave56
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 I'll read a lot of "heavily biased" articles, just to see the perspective presented. Agree or not, it's out there, so let's see what others are thinking/spewing. BUT, most of the ones that I read state that the author is an "opinion editor" or the article is an "opinion piece" on whatever topic. It may appear under the header of a recognized news-source, but is advertised appropriately as an opinion article.

Some of this other BS, is just that, but advertised as "fact".


"And today is for sale and it's all you can afford. Buy your own admission. The whole things got you bored. Well the Lord chooses the good ones, and the bad ones use the Lord"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP

 

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