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"The world has made spectacular progress in every single measure of

136.37.101.134
Posted on September 14, 2020 at 08:14:52
tinear
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 human well-being." Steven Pinker, from, "Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress."

I heartily recommend this comprehensive study (crammed not so much with arguments as data proving his thesis).

If things indeed have improved so much, why do we all feel this way, today?

"Amos Tversky and Daniel Kahneman have called it loss aversion and more generally it's been called the negativity bias. The syndrome in which bad is stronger than good. As we discussed before this can be amplified by certain journalistic habits and indeed gimmicks such as listing everything that is currently going wrong, if you scoured the news for all of the greatest dangers in any given year in history it would sound rather dire." Pinker

Progress always is interrupted by catastrophic, unforeseen events. That is what we're experiencing with Covid-19. Is it the Black Plague or a wide outburst of Ebola? No. Are these wildfires to be compared to Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Chernobyl?

Perspective, is all.

What I believe IS disheartening is the lack of acknowledgement of problems by some leaders.

 

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this is an old Pinker thesis..., posted on September 14, 2020 at 08:36:11
Jim Pearce
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 Recycled from "Better Angels" in 2011. Pinker is an intellectual whore, plain and simple. While it certainly is true that we are making measurable progress, developments like global warming put the very concept in question.

 

All it means is that we have more STUFF than ever before, posted on September 14, 2020 at 08:37:31
jedrider
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 Even if that includes CAT scans or, whatever. We live longer because we live sheltered uneventful lives, just like domestic cats always outlive feral cats. My niece keeps her cats in a cage often and they outlive their feral counterparts certainly. Isn't that nice?

 

Follow that with "Beginning of Infinity" by Deutsch, and forget all this noise. nt, posted on September 14, 2020 at 09:00:34
free.ranger
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I think so much of "well being", posted on September 14, 2020 at 09:11:07
E-Stat
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 is determined by one's perspective - not their collection of stuff.

You make the choice to be happy. Or miserable.

 

I used to argue with my mom alla time..., posted on September 14, 2020 at 10:03:25
ghost of olddude55
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 Mom: "I don't remember a time when things were this bad!"
Me: "Mom, you lived through the Great Depression and World War II."



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

"why do we all feel this way, today?", posted on September 14, 2020 at 10:11:37
srdavis2000
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 Why does who feel this way today.

I have lived in an uninsulated house heated with burning wood. There was no running water, and the restroom was outside. We raised, shot or caught our meat. We raised our own vegetables, fruit and feed for our animals. I got one pair of shoes a year just as school started. They were worn out by summer, but we went barefoot anyway. We did have electricity, but no phone. We took bathes in a tin tub with water heated on the wood stove.

I'm quite enjoying my well built home with central air and heat and all of the amenities. I slept great on my Sleep Number mattress last night set at my personal softness setting. I have everything I could ever want including great healthcare. I never got any kind of aid to change my life other than some good people who gave me a chance to work hard.

I personally think that things have improved a lot for a lot of people. Some people like to bitch. If that makes them happy, I think that they should be allowed to bitch.

 

If Pinker is, it's in a tradition of thinkers who write, isn't it? It's not like, posted on September 14, 2020 at 10:49:36
tinear
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 he's opining again and again from the same data. If you'd take the time, you'd find the books are very different and both are heavily driven by studies and historical perspective.

He isn't stating a "concept," it's a fact, backed up by data. Now, global warming is indeed a challenge. Is it irreversible? Someone said that during the Cold War the atomic clock was at 2 minutes to midnight for 60 years. Obviously, it was pointed out, something was wrong with the clock. After Chernobyl, it was said nuclear power would destroy continents. Fukushima: horrible, but not exactly the Black Death. Or the all-destructive invasions of the Huns or the tens of millions of deaths of WWII.

Fatalism and apathy are the only real obstacles to our species.

It can take a century to erect a cathedral and only one match and one moment to begin its incineration. Yet, the world is full of those beautiful, amazing human achievements. There is a power to the human spirit that always has overcome entropy.

 

"negativity bias" - Yup, Schopenhauer pointed this out in the 19th century, posted on September 14, 2020 at 11:35:56
Chris from Lafayette
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 He wasn't known as a "pessimist" philosopher for nothing. There were probably other folks who pointed this out before he did too.

 

The jury's still out on Fukushima - it's still going on [nt], posted on September 14, 2020 at 11:38:35
Chris from Lafayette
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RE: I used to argue with my mom alla time..., posted on September 14, 2020 at 11:50:48
Inmate51
 Millenial: "I don't remember a time when things were this bad!"

Grandparent: "You didn't live through the Great Depression and World War II."

 

RE: If Pinker is, it's in a tradition of thinkers who write, isn't it? It's not like, posted on September 14, 2020 at 12:10:43
Jim Pearce
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 The idea that progress is something that can be inferred from data is just plain sophomoric. But Pinker, like many Canadians and Americans, can't tell the difference between philosophy and science. Progress is an Enlightenment concept, and a very powerful one. Unfortunately, the decimation of species, violent weather and the current pandemic are all signs that this concept needs a thorough reset, one that respects the limits to growth. We are more like a cancer than a successful species at the moment.

 

RE: If Pinker is, it's in a tradition of thinkers who write, isn't it? It's not like, posted on September 14, 2020 at 12:22:39
rivervalley817
 'progress is something that can be inferred from data' + 'sophomoric'

I would posit that if you can't measure 'it' you can't manage it

wholeheartedly agree with your premise though as over population and climate change have been identified as the primary threats that could lead to a mass extinction event decades ago by some very respected intellects

with regards,

 

I'm not stating that progress can't be measured..., posted on September 14, 2020 at 13:06:58
Jim Pearce
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 That is quite a different statement from suggesting that progress can't be derived from the data. Things we don't measure point to the problem: it is so-called "externalities" which we don't measure (or value) in the economic system, that are symptomatic of the transgressed limits.

 

RE: I'm not stating that progress can't be measured..., posted on September 14, 2020 at 13:28:40
rivervalley817
 I read "The idea that progress is something that can be inferred from data is just plain sophomoric" as dismissing the use of deductive reasoning in evaluating progress, when you meant inductive reasoning

thanks for the clarification

regards,



 

Scientists are the reason we know of the climate crisis--- they analyze data. , posted on September 14, 2020 at 13:49:48
tinear
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 Same with species decimation. And the pandemic. Two of those can be solved, though with much effort and with one overwhelming question: who's to say poorer nations must resolve to remain so now that the wealthy have broken the bank?

So, you approve of using data for some deductions. I see, btw, no "philosophy" in Pinker. He looks at wide-ranging, multiple groups of facts and summarizes what they point to. Kind of like a doctor would, no?

I think it's misleading to say Pinker doesn't realize the mega-problems. He's just confronting those who spew gloom and doom, leading to mass apathy and despair. Even if we have a 1-in-a-1000 chance, I'll take it rather than retreat into fatalism.

Back to Pinker: are you sure you're not mixing up philosophy and psychology? Pinker's field is the latter.

 

you don't get science at all... , posted on September 14, 2020 at 14:09:29
Jim Pearce
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 Again, I'm not surprised. Science is not empirical: it starts with the premise that nature is mathematical. Data follows from the theory. Greek physics was much closer to what we observe than any modern physics which starts with mathematically ideal objects and events.

 

RE: you don't get science at all... , posted on September 14, 2020 at 14:28:34
rivervalley817
 'Science is not empirical'

surely you Kant mean that

 

now that is funny rivervalley!, posted on September 14, 2020 at 14:44:42
Jim Pearce
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 Yes, I'm taking a conceptualist approach, if not an explicitly Kantian one. Trump, for instance, thinks that the Dow is the measure of progress. Most of us would find this concept wanting, and I applaud the thinkers who have looked at broadened measures of GDP that "internalize the externalities". Where I depart from Kant is I don't think there is one right answer. Certainly somehow maximizing human freedom is far too anthropocentric, and I suspect that in this sense Pinker is more Kantian.

 

RE: "why do we all feel this way, today?", posted on September 14, 2020 at 15:18:37
LtMandella
 " I never got any kind of aid to change my life"

The only way that could possibly be true is if you lived on an island with no gov't, no infrastructure, no community.

Just because the aid is not singularly addressed with your personal name on it, doesn't mean that there is not PLENTY of assistance going to your community for everything from water to roads to firefighters, police, etc. etc. etc.

Why is it that Americans can't understand they live in a community and resources are shared and distributed around the community and that certainly benefits ALL it's members.

 

RE: now that is funny rivervalley!, posted on September 14, 2020 at 15:21:27
rivervalley817
 I only stopped comparing relativity to 'shadows in the cave' in my early 20's. after a brief stint working the Poconos I returned to making wholly inappropriate metaphysical mash-ups in an attempt to work the bigger stages found in LV ... off the strip of course ... but soon found that audiences were too jaded by the comedic stylings of Linus Pauling to make a connection with anymore ... so there I was, CV in hand trying to make the cast of Hee Haw, then Second City etc. until Fourteenth City hired me

try the roast beef and be sure to tip your waitress!

regards,

 

Interesting but..., posted on September 14, 2020 at 17:23:04
rwiley
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 It's hard not to be negatively biased when you've got a Cat 2 hurricane bearing down.

 

the salient (if lone) thing being turn of a positive leaf, good on ya' keep it up , posted on September 14, 2020 at 18:56:59
bjh
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View YouTube Video




 

You're a philosophy major who never got over science. Deductive logic, posted on September 15, 2020 at 06:17:40
tinear
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 is bunk in evaluating humanity. "How many angel..." blah blah blah. The great philosophers were just exalted essayists. You appear to be somewhat of a flat-earth fellow who profoundly does not understand Science. It is rigorous, peer reviewed. Not infallible, but it goes where the evidence AT THE TIME points.

 

RE: "why do we all feel this way, today?", posted on September 15, 2020 at 07:37:02
srdavis2000
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 You must have missed the part about where I grew up. There was no community. There were no street lights. The road was dirt. They did grade that once in a while if it got washed out. Water was rain water off of the roof channeled into a cistern. I guess we did have school, a school bus, and a library and post office in town. Mail wasn't delivered. You had to go to town and pick it up. We had electricity, but we got a bill for that, and they would cut you off if you didn't pay. We paid state and federal taxes providing stuff for somebody somewhere.

There is a lot more aid today. Due to the virus, there are food giveaways several times a week with long lines. There are food stamp equivalents. A huge number of able bodied people are on disability.

 

RE: "why do we all feel this way, today?", posted on September 15, 2020 at 07:40:26
LtMandella
 Well I won't continue to belabor the points with you.

You have convinced yourself that all you enjoy in this country is from your own individual efforts, and there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise because that is not a rational point of view, just emotion and ego.

 

And i wont continue to argue with you about then..., posted on September 15, 2020 at 08:12:14
srdavis2000
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 when you are talking about now. Yes I enjoy many things not of my own doing today. Hell, I'm retired.

 

RE: "why do we all feel this way, today?", posted on September 15, 2020 at 09:14:53
dee eye why
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 Excellent post.
You completely nailed it.


.
Freak out...Far out...In out....

 

RE: "why do we all feel this way, today?", posted on September 15, 2020 at 10:06:08
rivervalley817
 'Why is it that Americans can't understand they live in a community and resources are shared and distributed around the community'

because that 'smells' like socialism and in the lexicon of American capitalism that's a dirty word ... all governments redistribute 'wealth'
in the form of taxes spent on budgets created by whichever 'party' gets their shot ... there's nearly 'tribal' disagreements on spending priorities, so children go hungry, schools close, roads crumble, bridges fail, yet bombers still bomb, drones drone, and oil still flows ...

pretty damn sad

with regards,


 

RE: "why do we all feel this way, today?", posted on September 15, 2020 at 10:09:19
LtMandella
 But it's perfectly OK to subsidize billion dollar multi national corporations with bail outs and grants whenever they claim they need it.

That's not socialism LOL.

 

RE: "why do we all feel this way, today?", posted on September 15, 2020 at 10:17:32
Inmate51
 Interesting point. Could you cite some examples?

 

RE: "why do we all feel this way, today?", posted on September 15, 2020 at 10:25:37
LtMandella
 google is your friend sir.

Here is one result from a search phrase "corporate bail outs 2020". It's quite a list.

https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list

p.s. where have you been the last 20 years? you have to be the only person left in the U.S. who doesn't know that taxpayers have been bailing out billion dollar corporations with interest free loans and outright grants right up to this month!



 

RE: "why do we all feel this way, today?", posted on September 15, 2020 at 10:44:52
rivervalley817
 it's not OK with everyone

 

RE: "why do we all feel this way, today?", posted on September 15, 2020 at 11:03:30
LtMandella
 It sure as heck is OK with those CEO and ultra rich capitalists, who are the first ones and loudest ones constantly screaming about the horrors of "socialism".

Biggest hypocrites on the planet, and laughing all the way to their swiss bank accounts...

 

RE: "why do we all feel this way, today?", posted on September 15, 2020 at 11:12:27
rivervalley817
 that goes without saying

who cries when dams are built? the ones upstream or downstream?

at least 'we' have electricity now

or the family property is under water and agrarian lifestyle destroyed

what you'll see inevitably are cracks in the dam that no one wants to pay to fix ... of course you see where that metaphor is going

best regards,

 

You never went to public school. Drove on a public road. Enjoyed relative, posted on September 15, 2020 at 11:58:37
tinear
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 safety because of the police/firefighters. Singlehandedly, your fathers would have fought off the Japanese and Germans. I'll stop there. This rugged individualism is fine for little boys drunk on the Western fables of gunfighters. Even then, though, the government actually built forts that made any settlement or town possible. Sheesh.

 

And i wont continue to argue with you about then..., posted on September 15, 2020 at 12:02:20
srdavis2000
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 when you are talking about now. Yes I enjoy many things not of my own doing today. Hell, I'm retired.

 

nothing could be further from the truth tin..., posted on September 15, 2020 at 12:12:04
Jim Pearce
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 The core of my interest in philosophy is in the disciplines surrounding AI and cognitive science. But the notion that the claims that Pinker is making here are supported by a consensus of his peers is laughable. Maybe you should put more thought into your ripostes.

 

RE: "why do we all feel this way, today?", posted on September 15, 2020 at 14:04:23
rivervalley817
 there's a reason it smells like it

capitalism always strives to privatize profits and socialize risk

the risk is what you get a whiff of

regards,

 

RE: "why do we all feel this way, today?", posted on September 15, 2020 at 15:06:39
LtMandella
 a whiff?

More like a 2x4 swung by Barry Bonds to the face

 

RE: Yo 2000, posted on September 15, 2020 at 17:01:01
tweaker456
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 Ya ever go out for 'possum sushi for a bit of atavist pleasure?


Why do Opossums play dead?


So let us stop talkin' falsely now, the hour's getting late --
Robert Allen Zimmerman

 

RE: "why do we all feel this way, today?", posted on September 16, 2020 at 04:15:35
Krav Maga
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 I would not equate the provision and consumption of public goods ("infrastructure", "water to roads", etc) with the kind of "aid" which srdavis2000 was talking about.
"All thoughts are prey to some beast" - Bill Callahan

"I'll be your mirror
Reflect what you are" - Lou Reed

"Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth." - Albert Einstein

 

I have eaten possum and racoon., posted on September 16, 2020 at 05:22:56
srdavis2000
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 I was a kid and don't remember how either tasted. My dad would shoot and cook just about anything with meat on it.

 

Why Do You Feel That Way?, posted on September 16, 2020 at 05:48:22
Inmate51
 Either through misunderstanding or intentionally, you completely missed srdavis2000's point.

He grew up poor, made something of his life, now lives a nice comfortable life, and did it through his own efforts. No government "handouts", no "at-risk" programs, no "under-priviledged" programs. Just a guy who decided to make his way in the world, and living in a country where any person can do that.

What part of that don't you get?!

My Dad did a similar thing. He grew up on a small family farm in a small town. Worked hard, studied hard, got an Associate degree in business, worked his way up, became the office manager for the local branch of a large company, had a new home built for us, was able buy reasonably nice cars (mostly Buicks), put his two kids through college, saved enough for my Mom to live comfortably, and died at 66 from cancer. Not a penny of welfare.

Are you starting to get it now?

 

RE: Why Do You Feel That Way?, posted on September 16, 2020 at 06:53:37
LtMandella
 Who paid for your Dad's elementary school education?
Who paid for the buses and school buildings?
Who paid for the elementary school education of all those folks that worked in the company office your dad managed?
Who paid for all the roads and bridges all of you used to get to and from work every day?

Just ONE example: For 40 years I worked my ass off and paid taxes, and I had NO CHILDREN IN SCHOOL. In that time, I was paying for YOUR KIDS TO GO.

I could go on and on. But you want to live in your ego world and pretend that you and your family paid for eveything themselves, and the facts are not going to interfere with your ego.

 

RE: "why do we all feel this way, today?", posted on September 16, 2020 at 07:28:49
LtMandella
 I would.

 

RE: "The world has made spectacular progress in every single measure of, posted on September 16, 2020 at 12:14:18
pictureguy
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 Without regard to the feel-good guy,
People KNOW the end is near. too much conflict and stupid people killing / looting / rioting for little or no good reason.
Water and other resources are getting scarce. And while in the 50s, a single wager earner could keep a household going, today, even BOTH parents working is getting dicey......

No, as some point humanity WILL teeter over the edge.....


Too much is never enough

 

RE: "The world has made spectacular progress in every single measure of, posted on September 16, 2020 at 13:09:46
rivervalley817
 'humanity WILL teeter over the edge'

only if you're a 'flat earther'

 

RE: "The world has made spectacular progress in every single measure of, posted on September 16, 2020 at 17:32:37
pictureguy
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 A metaphorical edge.


Too much is never enough

 

RE: "The world has made spectacular progress in every single measure of, posted on September 16, 2020 at 17:46:38
rivervalley817
 of course ...

 

RE: "The world has made spectacular progress in every single measure of, posted on September 16, 2020 at 18:33:00
pictureguy
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 Nonetheless, if man doesn't PLAN for a soft-landing, the result will be awful.
And I'm talking Multiple-Billions of deaths.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: "The world has made spectacular progress in every single measure of, posted on September 16, 2020 at 19:05:29
rivervalley817
 man will not plan ... there is neither a long view nor the discipline to execute it anyway ... look around, you know it's true

population earth can't even get it together to beat back a pandemic with the simple act of wearing masks in public, or distancing, especially in the US ... you've seen the commentary on this site ... it's much worse on other sites that cater to such mindsets

sorry

 

RE: "The world has made spectacular progress in every single measure of, posted on September 16, 2020 at 19:49:08
pictureguy
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 Ordinarily I'd agree with your viewpoint.
However, there ARE a few who are both forward looking and active.
I have yet to decide on the final list, however, included would be members of the following groups::

1. Permanent members of the Bilderberg Group.
And INTERLOCKING membership from:
2. Council on Foreign relations
3. TriLateral Commission

You may include a few members BY ACCIDENT from a few other groups.....but by and large the 3 named above are working for a soft landing.

right now? Population growth on the planet is very low, but still a positive number with a doubling time of maybe 50 to 60 years (<1%) while for long term survival, far fewer people are desired.

If the plan were part of a democratic or republican process? It would indeed, never happen.

I wish I could come up with the quote about the 'game' being played OVER the heads of the masses.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: "The world has made spectacular progress in every single measure of, posted on September 16, 2020 at 20:29:56
rivervalley817
 just to effect any meaningful change of direction there would need to be a bi-partisan plan carried out through several election cycles and administrations ... so the whole concept is simply DOA ... the political climate has become too tribal on a curve that will not unbend soon

on one side spending priorities tend towards nepotism so pockets are lined and on the other on current problems that require tremendous expenditures [with some hands in the cookie jar too] let alone funding for any altruistic, humanist plans for the future. on top of that to coordinate the US direction with the other major powers where their govt systems are at least as dysfunctional is just too huge of an ask

it's heartening that you've some ideas and vision though

I just can't help having a nihilistic forecast knowing the nature of the beast with climate change breathing down 'our' necks ... the progress you point to though substantial is not self perpetuating

best regards,




 

RE: "The world has made spectacular progress in every single measure of, posted on September 17, 2020 at 11:22:28
pictureguy
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 The groups I cite are MASSIVELY influential. If you look at membership, you won't recognize many names....but ALL are 'players'.
these groups influence law, policy and society in general. Do not underestimate their power.
The population at large is reactive, not proactive.

Now, this is not a guarantee. I still give it maybe 50:50 but not better. So many moving parts!

OH! Add the BIS....Bank for International Settlements to the list. This is THE main creditor on the planet. And SWISS.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: "The world has made spectacular progress in every single measure of, posted on September 17, 2020 at 11:34:30
rivervalley817
 'you won't recognize many names'

why would you assume that?

anyway, my bad for spreading all that sunshine but I disagree with your odds ... anything's worth a try I guess; contact those entities and see if they're willing to form your proposed coalition, maybe we'll both have a laugh over the response ...

I know, there you go again! [w/ Reagan voice over]

best regards,

 

RE: "The world has made spectacular progress in every single measure of, posted on September 17, 2020 at 13:27:50
pictureguy
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 Unless you are into corporate and government minutia, you probably won't recognize many names.
Like all the relatives of the Red Shields....known as the Rothschillds. Many family members are part of corporate and government.....but you RARELY hear the names.
Lots of players are not the first string guys IN THE NEWS....but rather are a layer down......

An example from American Politics? Look at how Congress is organized. Various committee assignaments and you work your way UP the ladder to committee chair, maybe. But you have STAFF nobody or few ever hear about. Staff do the work and the Congressman or Senator is the Front Man.

Look at Greta Thunberg. A total tool. I'd like to ask her about how weather works or some question that if she wasn't a parrot, she'd know. Very Telegenic, however, and terrific on camera.

Maybe 50:50 IS a little pessimistic. Maybe.

I'm not an optimist in this regard. Certainly not better than 3:2 Nobody is going to give ground on this. Even to our destruction. What group will VOLUNTARILY cap their population? Or restrict resource use until such time as a better balanced is achieved?
Too much is never enough

 

RE: "The world has made spectacular progress in every single measure of, posted on September 17, 2020 at 14:35:15
rivervalley817
 I've got a venn diagram of old European $$ in American politics I'll share if I can find it again on my scattered collection of thumb drives ... can't seem to find it on-line anymore

'What group will VOLUNTARILY cap their population?'

the Chinese, but you already knew that

best regards,

 

RE: "The world has made spectacular progress in every single measure of, posted on September 17, 2020 at 15:24:52
Inmate51
 "I've got a venn diagram of old European $$ in American politics I'll share if I can find it again on my scattered collection of thumb drives ... can't seem to find it on-line anymore"

At least you said that it might be somewhere, so, we should believe it anyway?

Idiocy.

Until you "find it", ...

 

RE: "The world has made spectacular progress in every single measure of, posted on September 17, 2020 at 15:58:35
rivervalley817
 **piffle**

 

RE: "The world has made spectacular progress in every single measure of, posted on September 17, 2020 at 21:54:29
pictureguy
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 I know that the 'One Child' policy is both hotly debated AND controversial.

Personally, I doubt it worked well.....or enough to justify the dislocation it engendered.

Don't forget that when Ultrasound became ubiquitous that in INDIA so many female fetuses were aborted that it substantially tipped the natural male / female child balance and an entire generation of Indian Men grew up with little chance of landing a wife, let alone a date.

Unintended consequences RULE.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: "The world has made spectacular progress in every single measure of, posted on September 18, 2020 at 07:41:35
rivervalley817
 focused sound waves aren't healthy for whales either

SAVE THE WHALES!

collect the whole set!

regards,

 

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