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Quote of the day: 'You can't fix stupid'

154.27.112.24
Posted on August 17, 2020 at 11:22:30
SamA
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 That's from Trump trade advisor Peter Navarro, ripping Kodak executives on their handling of a government loan to produce pharma ingredients in the U.S.

Just sayin'.

 

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Your link is broken, posted on August 17, 2020 at 11:36:57
AbeCollins
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It appears that you may have entered the link URL in the Link Title field (instead of the Link URL field).



 

I never liked Ektachrome anyway, posted on August 17, 2020 at 11:40:03
Story
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 Kodachrome on the other hand was quite amazing



 

Thanks, Abe, posted on August 17, 2020 at 11:45:35
SamA
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 Should be good now!

 

RE: I never liked Ektachrome anyway, posted on August 17, 2020 at 12:17:08
Coner
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 But the speed could be "pushed" in low-light conditions.
So, more versatile, anyway. Reliably to 4x, never tried for more.

 

How did you push Ektachrome?, posted on August 17, 2020 at 12:37:31
srdavis2000
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 Did you develop it yourself?

 

RE: I never liked Ektachrome anyway, posted on August 17, 2020 at 12:39:51
srdavis2000
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 Ektachrome and Kadachrome were both Kodak films.

 

RE: How did you push Ektachrome?, posted on August 17, 2020 at 12:59:50
Coner
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 No, was not feasible since it cost little extra. They
just write "push to 800" on the order.

 

RE: I never liked Ektachrome anyway, posted on August 17, 2020 at 13:02:06
pictureguy
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 Ektachrome was E6 process as were most other transparency films form ALL makers.
Kodachrome OTOH used a propriety process and was exclusive to Kodak.

The color balance of these emulsions were different. Koda was good for images of people with good skin tones while I tended to prefer Ekta for outdoor or 'nature'. I'd use High Speed Ektachrome and push to 400, IIRC.

Later I used Velvia which was the equal of Kodachrome in an E6 film while Fuji also make Provia, which came in a variety of 'speeds' up to either 1600 or one stop faster @3200.....That ended up as my go-to slide film. Beautiful and no exaggeration of color or tone while having good detail, even in shadows.
Too much is never enough

 

Yes, but chemistry very different...., posted on August 17, 2020 at 13:03:33
Coner
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 Lots of pro's used Ekta...more forgiving and versatile.
Koda may be better image wise, though.

 

RE: How did you push Ektachrome?, posted on August 17, 2020 at 13:12:05
pictureguy
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 Process E4, the immediate predecessor of E6 had a 'first develop' as step #3.
After a wash and stop, Step #6 was the color develop. Another stop / wash then bleach followed by fixer, and yet MORE washing. You'd finish with a stabilier. than dry.

E6 should be pretty much the same. ONE of the develop steps or maybe both are extended for push processing.

Doing that at home was a REAL PIA with both time and temp being important to the point of critical.
Kodak even says to take 10 seconds to drain the 'small tank' (common among home processors) and ADD that to the total time. Temps like 83.87f are listed and I suspect impossible for the home processor.

You'll see an effect with enlarged grain and somewhat less resolution.

My old Kodak Color Dataguide was printed prior to the E6 process.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: How did you push Ektachrome?, posted on August 17, 2020 at 13:28:47
Coner
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 Sure, the tradeoffs are somewhat grainy images, but hey,
I got the image. Perfect example is sitting in the spectator
area at a horse show (far away). Flash does little at that distance
and I used F1's with fast tele's.

You know much more about film than I do, for sure.

 

Flash, posted on August 17, 2020 at 13:53:48
Inmate51
 Something which I always found amusing was when someone would take a picture of, say, fireworks or a solar eclipse or a large-scale concert event or whatever, and use their flash. We've all seen large-scale sporting events or concerts where there's flash sparkles all over the stands.

 

"You know much more about film than I do, for sure" me 2 thx /nt, posted on August 17, 2020 at 13:55:50
Story
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even moreso were class trips...., posted on August 17, 2020 at 14:01:31
Story
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 where everyone would take pics of scenery with a flash inside the bus.

what a marvelous picture of Greyhound interior glass...



 

Yeah, but don't quote me on that!. :) NT, posted on August 17, 2020 at 14:49:49
Coner
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 NT

 

I processed about 10 rolls of ektachrome once to save money., posted on August 17, 2020 at 17:29:45
srdavis2000
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 I was poor back then. Very bad decision. I did a lot of black and white, and thought I could do it. I ended up with slides with color shifts all over the place. The slides were of my first backpacking trip in the Tetons. It was a stupid bad decision.

 

You see that all the time., posted on August 17, 2020 at 17:34:24
srdavis2000
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 Their flash has about a 20' (maybe) reach. I've always wondered what would happen if all the flashes were syncted.

 

RE: I never liked Ektachrome anyway, posted on August 17, 2020 at 17:40:15
srdavis2000
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 It was amazing under the right lighting conditions. It was contrasty under others. Flat light, it was something else with reds and yellows, high noon with dark shadows, it was contrasts.

 

RE: I processed about 10 rolls of ektachrome once to save money., posted on August 17, 2020 at 18:00:06
pictureguy
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 Transparencies are difficult to process.

Later E6 process was at a more controlable 100f. And eliminated one REALLY toxic chemical.
So it was both a better and safer process for the home guy.

But still and all? Not for the faint of heart.

I'd use Panalure paper to get B&W prints from color negatives.
I also tried whatever it was to get B&W negatives from COLOR (C41) processing. I can't remember the Kodak Film....but I haven't seen it in years. Maybe some other film makers tried this, too?
They HATED me and put my stuff off until last. I only did that 2x.

The rule is to NEVER experiment on critical stuff. Or, for that matter, go on a critical trip with NEW equipment. Asking for problems.......ask me how I know.
Too much is never enough

 

slide film really only had/has a 1/2 stop +/- push before reciprocity failure , posted on August 17, 2020 at 18:00:08
Green Lantern
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 any gain in exposure usually resulted in noticeable color shifts.









 

Experimenting, posted on August 18, 2020 at 04:58:00
Inmate51
 "The rule is to NEVER experiment on critical stuff. Or, for that matter, go on a critical trip with NEW equipment."

10-4 on that. A person might get lucky and it works out, but if you've got a client who wants results, it's not the time to experiment. Well, unless you're willing to do multiple shots with different settings and various things - all on your own time and your own dime.

With regard to new equipment on a critical trip...

I've been to Switzerland many times. BUT, a few years ago was the first time the whole family went (our youngest hadn't ever been there), and, I had just bought a new Canon digital SLR camera the week before, specifically for this trip. Ha! I literally was reading the manual and exploring menus while on the plane! Fortunately, it worked out and I have about 650 well-exposed shots. The next challenge was to decide what to do with them! Clearly, I wasn't going to print 650 images!

 

RE: Experimenting, posted on August 18, 2020 at 11:15:07
pictureguy
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 I shot a Biker Wedding many years ago. Using FILM....I think an EOS 1n and associated glass.
I had a good flash and I would rent a battery pack good for a thousand or more full power flashes AND carry 2 sets of spare batteries. That's covered.

But they wanted the formals outdoors AT NITE. Clearly not enough light. So I RENTED a pair of strobes, stands, umbrellas AND a flash meter. But I didn't go in cold. I went home and shot a roll right in my house. THAN made sure it was properly exposed. Wedding came out great. Sigh of Relief.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: I never liked Ektachrome anyway, posted on August 18, 2020 at 11:59:54
pictureguy
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 Transparency film is very picky as to exposure.
When you saw it was 'contrasty', you may have tested by shooting the SAME shot 3x
First at listed ASA. Second -2/3 of a stop (ASA 100 @ASA64) or +2/3 stop. (ASA100 @160)

Cameras and film vary in ASA setting / sensitivity. I would routinely shoot Velvia which came as ASA50 at 1/3 stop slower ASA40. Saturation was better and no chance to blow highlights.
Even your meter could be slightly off. Try metering a grey card or use an external incident meter.
Too much is never enough

 

I know that you bill yourself as pictureguy,, posted on August 18, 2020 at 17:36:59
srdavis2000
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 and I know that you know a lot about photography. You could do well to not assume that the entire rest of the world is unaware. I have tested films and had them read with a densitometer. I have developed film and tested prints to zone VIII. I used and measured the scenes with a 1 degree spot meter modified with UV filtration invented by the guy who listens for signals from the universe from other places for signs of life. His hobby was photography. I have shown my prints in gallery's and sold many prints. I have won awards. Please don't talk down to me. Frankly, I'm not into the technical parts as much as you are. I still have valid opinions. They won't be about digital. You can do that.

 

RE: I know that you bill yourself as pictureguy,, posted on August 18, 2020 at 18:37:16
Inmate51
 If I may play referee for a moment, I don't think Pictureguy intended to insult or talk down to you. I think he was just offering some advice to a person he doesn't know and whose expertise he isn't aware of. (Of which he isn't aware, of.)

:)

 

I agree completely, FWIW (nt), posted on August 18, 2020 at 19:15:26
mhardy6647
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 nt

all the best,
mrh

 

RE: I know that you bill yourself as pictureguy,, posted on August 18, 2020 at 20:30:58
pictureguy
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 Than you should KNOW how touchy transparency film is.
You DO have quite a base. My handheld meter is a Sekonic, but not a 1degree meter.
I used incident, not reflected technique.

I don't 'argue' about digital. What I observe is that it has come a long way from the early equipment.
I worked for Statek who had an R/D department. Keeping in mind I left them in about '76, I saw some early experimental prints made with a CCD sensor we made in-house.

Digital, at least my early EOS camera kind of reminded me of film. Or at least Transparencies. Very touchy exposure and difficult contrast. I shot a wedding with Kodak NC film and it was beautiful when processed right. You could see the creases in the black slacks worn by the groomsmen.

I enjoy the technical parts. I had ACCESS to a McBeth years ago but never used it for film. We used it for processing in our wafer fab where I worked as a photo tech. 1:1 contact printers for semiconductors at that time.

Sure, YOUR experience and what you noted is what happened to YOU. I know Ektachrome was not the most user friendly film, but still some people had luck with altering the exposure a little and than playing around in the darkroom. I NEVER processed any color Anything. I couldn't imagine how to control the temp of the baths, for just a start. And what I noted for Velvia was not just me, but a lot of people who led me into that idea. I didn't just experiment.....

The name I most associate with Zone Sytem is Adams. My GF had a book of his work in which he participated in the production. Just amazing tonality and composition. I was never able to work with this lacking patients, usually, and the darkroom ability to see some of the changes.
I have used a grey card many times for substitute metering.....that seems to be a pretty good solution in hard situations.

Have a site where I can see some of your stuff?
Too much is never enough

 

RE: I know that you bill yourself as pictureguy,, posted on August 18, 2020 at 23:45:12
pictureguy
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 I wish you had PM'd me so we could talk about some stuff offline. I want to pick your brain cell.

First? Anger does NO good. Anger is fear of a loss, which means, I suspect, I an 'lessening' you in some fashion. I had NO idea somebody on these pages had such a cool background. You are certainly in the upper %age. I have a lot of memory about what I did years ago, but certainly not 'systematic' in any way. When I had an Argus C3 (look THAT one up!) my dad bought me a yellow filter for B&W which I experimented with. He'd been a photo hobbyist in WWII and I inherited his darkroom stuff, including porcelain trays and all sorts of goodies.

Now? My question. What do you KNOW about zone system? I looked it up since all I remember was Ansel Adams and 18% grey. Not much else.
But I went to the Ken Rockwell site and just scanned thru it. I'll PRINT a copy tomorrow so I can read and underline. It seems you can apply the 'system' to digital and even a point / shoot. I may give that a try and break out the old Sedonic. Like I don't tote enough stuff around now!

The other thing I remember is that a camera meter is assuming an 18% grey AVERAGE scene brightness. Objects like SNOW or a BLACK wall can confuse things.

Have fun......break out that old film camera and get some Velvia. Good stuff with a slightly higher latitude than the Ekta.
Too much is never enough

 

I am truly sorry for the way I responded to you., posted on August 19, 2020 at 03:38:34
srdavis2000
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 I had been drinking a bit last night and should not have been posting anything. Please except my apology. I'm not sure why I posted what I did.

 

You are right., posted on August 19, 2020 at 03:45:18
srdavis2000
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 I should not have posted what I did. I wish I could have deleted my post, but it was too late. I apologized to Pictureguy.

 

I used the zone system with film., posted on August 19, 2020 at 08:52:14
srdavis2000
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It's one of the most misunderstood things in photography. I have heard people talk about the system that didn't have a clue. For instance, "I placed the tree trunks on zone III and I placed the clouds on zone VII", etc. you only get one exposure. You only get to place one thing, everything else falls on whatever. Once you get used to the system, it is very easy to use.

You start out by testing your film to find the point at which it first begins to respond to light. This is your true ASA for your camera, meter, film and development. This is zone I. It is hardly distinguishable to black. Moving up the zones (f-stops), you first see detail in shadows at zone III. You lose detail at Zone VIII. If you don't push or pull development, that's it. You only get one development to, so you have to treat the whole roll the same. Adams used sheet film and so developed each negative individually. About the only reason I saw to push or pull development was maybe on a cloudy dull day, or an extremely bright day. I found that printing on a grade higher or lower paper was equivalent. I don't think that Adams had variable contrast paper when he devised his system.

Simplified, I would usually use my spot meter and read the lightest thing in the scene that I wanted to retain detail in. I would placed that on zone VII. I would then meter darker areas to see where other things might fall. My spot meter has a zone wheel. You take a reading say of clouds. The meter says 12 or whatever. I turn the wheel to align 12 with zone VII. I then read my exposure choices, set shutter speed and f-stop and take the picture.

 

RE: I used the zone system with film., posted on August 19, 2020 at 11:34:36
pictureguy
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 Years ago the Minolta Spot Meter (or was it Pentax?) was an aspirational item.
Cameras began to be equipped with several meter patterns.....from area / averaging to a couple more...restricted area settings. I know the meter in my Canon could NOT be trusted in Spot. I experimented with metering something very dark or very bright and reading the 'range' than setting the camera maybe 2/3 the way between. I never got satisfacory results.

Now that I have digital I'll look into it's narrowest metering pattern and try again.

What is important in digital is to have a MONITOR you can trust. Doesn't have to be calibrated, though that helps.

Let me read the Rockwell article and see if I can make sense of it. Not that I have any complaints with my camera as it works now. The Nikon 'matrix' metering system works well for normal stuff which is what it's designed for, I guess. I think it'll also assign priority exposure to whatever focus point is selected. Or the camera selects when in THAT mode.
Camera is good at locking onto faces and Eyes....even the eyes of PETS now after a FW update.

Could you work the sytem 'on the fly'.....say at a sporting event? Set up once and as long as the light stays the same, you should be OK? Or doesn't it work that way?
Too much is never enough

 

RE: I used the zone system with film., posted on August 19, 2020 at 12:29:33
srdavis2000
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 I have an 18% gray card in all of my bags. You can always meter a gray card held in the same light as what you are photographing. Easier yet is that Caucasian skin is typically Zone VI, so meter your hand and stop down one stop. You can test this by metering a card and then your hand so that you will know for yourself.

There are exceptions. Say it's a partly cloudy day and you are in the shade temporarily, but the sun is hitting what you want to photograph. That's when a spot meter really comes in handy. You have to have some idea of what zone the area you are spot metering would fall on. The meter will give you a reading for middle gray. So a spot meter pointed at something lighter like clouds or darker like a tree trunk in shade won't work for you unless you adjust exposure by stopping 2 stops for the clouds and open up two stops for the tree trunk. That's the reason for my zone dial. If you meter white clouds, you set the reading to zone VII. If you meter a tree trunk in shade, you dial the reading to zone III. If you meter a light skinned person, you dial it to zone VI.

Once you take a reading, it should be good as long as you are facing the same direction and the light doesn't change. I wasn't usually shooting sports. If I did I was using 35mm. I shot medium format Pentax 6x7, Hasselblad 6x6, and a 4x5 inch Zone VI view camera. All are manual. I have a Nikon 35mm that has a meter, but is also manual.

I have a Canon EOS digital and a digital range finder and of course phone and pad. They get pretty good exposures, but God knows what they are doing.

 

RE: I used the zone system with film., posted on August 19, 2020 at 14:30:53
Inmate51
 "You can test this by metering a card and then your hand so that you will know for yourself."

THAT is an excellent tip! Thanks!

"Easier yet is that Caucasian skin is typically Zone VI, so meter your hand and stop down one stop."

Well, that's pretty much stereotyping! It varies depending on the amount of tanning that the 5'8" 130 Lb. 36-C hottie has been doing. KIDDING!!

Not to go all O.T., but, on the subject of skin tone, I once had to photograph a very dark-skinned Negro person, and I bracketed that shot six ways to Sunday, 'cause I really wasn't sure how to do it and get some decent amount of detail and contrast. Even though I don't do portraiture/wedding photography anymore, I'd be interested in your thoughts on photographing dark-skinned people.

Lastly, I've previously posted about using some readily available surface to approximate a gray card. Concrete in shade. Weather-worn picket fence. Etc. This type of thing can be useful. Just look for something which looks like a gray card!

 

RE: I used the zone system with film., posted on August 19, 2020 at 14:44:58
pictureguy
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 BOTH are good advice for 'substitute metering'. My Kodak COLOR dataguide had both a grey card on a full sheet but a color control patch chart with Grey Scale.

If I included this in a shot, I think I could probably color / exposure correct to a high degree.

One problem not addressed with casual digital users is one of MONITOR. If I took a good shot and corrected it on MY monitor, no assuraces that it IS corrected on a calibrated monitor.

Once in a museum I saw the Pros who were taking photos of art do the SAME thing. They had color charts and grey scale in EACH image. And enough strobe to put a dent in Yankee Stadium.

My stuff on the shelf includes an old Polaroid 95 which needs some bellows help and a Yashica 635 which will take EITHER 120 or 35mm. It has the kit which includes a film gate for 35 along with little stubs for the 35mm can AND a reel with shoulders 1" apart in 120 format for the take up reel. It included provisions for REWIND, something not normally done for 120. You need to be a watchmaker to get all that stuff in correctly. But? You end up with an 85mm lens for 35mm which makes for a wonderful portrait camera. You're using the center of the lens which should be the best optical characteristics, too. The finder has a 35mm rectangle for framing / composition.

Let me read the Rockwell article and see what I make of it. As soon as the heat breaks I may make a trip somewhere and take CAREFUL NOTES.....
My old Canon EOS1d mk II had a audio funciton so I could record short audio clips to EACH file as taken. It was handy at weddings to remember names associated with some images. Made the customer feel better......

My Nikon Mirrorless (game changer for me) has 4 inbuilt meters. Nikon Matrix is where I leave it.
Center weighted Averaging....real old school A 4mm spot, which they say is 1.5% of the frame. This angle varies as a function of focal length. and lastly what they call 'Highlight Weighted Metering' which they claim is useful for stage events to prvent blowing the highlight.
I suppose the spot function with a long enough lens COULD be construed to be a 1degree pattern.
Time to Do The Math!
Too much is never enough

 

RE: I used the zone system with film., posted on August 19, 2020 at 16:12:49
pictureguy
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 The general rule is that a meter is calibrated for 18% grey. If your scene is darker, it should OVER expose. At least that's the way I understand it.

So for a black person, you may want to underexpose some.......You might want to meter the persons face close up....than an 18% grey card OR your palm and adjust based on THAT.

Yes, bracketing is a good idea. But I'd try to run a TEST first. Try at whatever the meter says than 2 over and 2 under exposures.

Don't forget that while people may be tanned, they SELDOM have tan palms. I've got a SLIGHT summer tan but my palms are still bleached looking. Think of the Coppertone girl.....
Too much is never enough

 

I should have said the palm of your hand., posted on August 19, 2020 at 16:42:06
srdavis2000
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 Palms are rarely tanned or at least mine isn't. Even tanned a Caucasian person is closer to zone VI than zone V an 18% gray card. Compare your tan to a gray card, squint and you'll see. You might be 1/2 stop off for a really tanned person, but you should be able to see that.

 

RE: I used the zone system with film., posted on August 19, 2020 at 17:09:12
srdavis2000
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 A black person is somewhere between zone IV and VI, usually around zone V. There is more variance than with whites. Look at the person and judge how dark they are compared to a gray card. I have only photographed a few black people. In theory they should be easy, zone V, a gray card, which meters are set for. The problem is that detail goes south as things get darker, so they are about a stop down from whites and detail is going south. I have seen good photos of black people under the right lighting. It's usually nice flat lighting which keeps detail in the shaded areas. If you can get spot meter zones III (darkest) through IV and V, you will be good. Below zone III, detail is gone.

 

RE: I should have said the palm of your hand., posted on August 19, 2020 at 18:55:58
pictureguy
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 Got it.
I'll check tomorrow during daylight hours. I'll bring my grey card, too.

I had success with INCIDENT metering. Broad area of acceptance, the opposite of a spot meter measures the light falling on a subject. My Sekonic has a 2-position translucent dome for diffusion and 2 different angles of acceptance. I'll see if I have a battery.....I should....and go outside and try the works and see if I get any or much agreement.


Too much is never enough

 

I should have said the palm of your hand., posted on September 19, 2020 at 05:07:42
srdavis2000
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 Palms are rarely tanned or at least mine isn't. Even tanned a Caucasian person is closer to zone VI than zone V an 18% gray card. Compare your tan to a gray card, squint and you'll see. You might be 1/2 stop off for a really tanned person, but you should be able to see that.

 

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