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Modified Edgarhorn Titan II's Update

162.207.20.19

Posted on October 13, 2021 at 16:10:33
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 816
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007



My old friend and retired builder with an Architect Degree constructed the A frame so I would mount and TIME ALIGN the Salad Bowls to woofer well within 1/4 wave at 500 Hz. About 1 inch vs. the required +/-6.78 inches. the tweeter is in the same plane also.

So after 2 coats of Oil Based Spar Urethane over the last few months, I finally installed this 2.1 setup in my workout room in the basement about 10.5 feet apart in corners. I could not find a Tweeter to match the unobtanium one that Dr. Edgar used, so I used the best tweeter I know of, which I had a hand in developing. A custom machined Crotch Walnut Tractrix Tweeter Horn by Dave Ault with B&C DE-120 (neo magnet) driver is doing the job. Only the Seismic Subwoofer remains unmodified.

Updating the woofer driver to a 4 ohm Eminence Kappa 15C, allowed for and additional 2 db of output with the same drive voltage as the JBL 2220 cited in his 2007 schematic, which was the latest I could find. Turns out that modeling both in HornResp, I got the same rolloff at 500 hz. WITHOUT the 2.5 mH choke that the good Dr. needed on the JBL. So I left it out for the Eminence. This was a real bonus, so now only 2 capacitors and 2 resistors are used. the subsequent measurements proved the simulations correct.

I used a -6 db L-pad instead of a -6.8 db one that he called for on the JBL 2441, for which I purchased brand new Aluminum Diaphragms.

After curving/measurments, I ended up with a larger capacitor on the Tweeter because it's about 6 db less sensitive than the Fane Tweeter he used, 106 vs 112. I use a Yamaha CX-A 5000 Pre Pro to drive a Class D chip amplifier with 75 Watts per channel. The YPAO room EQ does about a 4.5 db boost at the high end to compensate and make it FLAT to 16 Khz.while the rising resoponse of the driver to 20K takes care of the rest. From a total systems perspective, I'm very close to what he had in 2007, even though mine were built in 2003.

It's the most Micro Detailed, most revealing system I've ever heard in that room, but I think the wider dispersion of that tweeter does a "side wall splash" of the highs, which may require some absorption temporarily.

But instead of that, I had a Eureka moment yesterday, just found ordered a pair of new bullet tweeters on Ebay, made by Ciare in Italy, that have 110 db sensitivity. This brings me closer to the original and I hope they eliminate the need for Digital PEQ boost and the need for wall absorbers. We will see what happens in a few weeks, as my goal is to have a narrower dispersion in the Horizontal while raising the sensitivity, as to NOT require as much PEQ from the Room Correction in that range. So basically, I'm 95% there with my design goal.

In the meantime, I'm listening to all my test music. It sounds absolutely GLORIOUS as is in the sweet spot and I'm very glad I made the investment in money and time!

But like all my fellow audio geeks, if I can "shave and grow" a little here and a little there to make it as good as I can without EQ, then I'll do it.

 

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RE: Modified Edgarhorn Titan II's Update, posted on October 13, 2021 at 21:10:55
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2515
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
I believe you'll have better results with bullet tweeters. Those you are using now spread wider than the midrange which isn't a good thing IMHO. For best results, directivity should be similar. Bullets will also help avoiding those side reflections. Also, aiming for a flat response WITHOUT EQ usually sounds best :) higher sensitivity tweeters will allow you to just pad them down in line with the rest. Of course, you already know all this, I'm just saying: go for it! ;-)
Great system you have :-)

 

RE: Modified Edgarhorn Titan II's Update, posted on October 14, 2021 at 05:28:20
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 816
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
Thank you for the nudge.

 

RE: Modified Edgarhorn Titan II's Update, posted on October 14, 2021 at 08:22:16
Don Reid
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Posts: 886
Location: Rural NW Georgia
Joined: February 2, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
April 1, 2010
You have obviously done great work, claudej1. I too have a DIY fully horn loaded system. I continued to make changes and tweaks on it for over ten years before I got it right.
I use Fostex t900a bullet tweeters and really like them a lot.
I dream of an America where a chicken can cross the road without having it's motives questioned.

 

+1 on the Fostex T900A..., posted on October 14, 2021 at 11:30:41
Rod M
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Posts: 16200
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
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  Since:
March 1, 1999
All it needed was a capacitor and blends perfectly with the 2441s.

-Rod

 

Nice!, posted on October 14, 2021 at 11:37:52
Rod M
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My only comment would be to move the bass bins up a bit. For my Titans, my brother and I added a 4" skirt which also hides the casters to move them since they are too big and too heavy to move otherwise.





I should try moving the 2441s back to be closer to the D130. My thought was that it would get a lot of reflection from the bass horn being back further. Whether precise time alignment or reflections are worse is the conundrum.

-Rod

 

RE: Modified Edgarhorn Titan II's Update, posted on October 14, 2021 at 12:05:48
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 816
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
I don't want to spend over a grand for a bullet tweeter. Besides, the one you use is only 106 db sensitivity. I needed something closer to 112, which was the original spec. on the Fane from Dr. Edgar.

I can change the cap value as required for the blend. The Ciare has a rising response near 20 Khz. for that extra "air." Besides, I can't hear past 13 anyhow. I have a 106 db tweeter now that sounds great, but I want a narrower beam angle, but not as narrow as what the spec says on the Fostex.

My instruments and my ears will tell me if I'm right, and I have a 30 day retrun policy to Italy as long as I pay shipping back.

Thanks for the comments.

 

RE: Nice!, posted on October 14, 2021 at 12:09:58
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 816
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
"Whether precise time alignment or reflections are worse is the conundrum.
"
Precise time alignment is better. I can tame the reflections with a pillow.

 

RE: Modified Edgarhorn Titan II's Update, posted on October 14, 2021 at 12:15:04
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 816
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
Here's what I ordered for a shade over $400.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/362999251932

 

Fane tweeter isn't all that great..., posted on October 14, 2021 at 12:23:19
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
But at my age it hardly matters.

If I were a couple decades younger I would replace it with one of Fostex's more expensive ones. As it is, I have left it as Bruce intended.






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Modified Edgarhorn Titan II's Update, posted on October 14, 2021 at 12:35:26
I've heard those in some home and pro applications, nice driver!

they're machined out of a solid aluminum billet and quite impressive!

you've made great choices and your finished project will be very nice

enjoy!

regards,

 

RE: Modified Edgarhorn Titan II's Update, posted on October 14, 2021 at 16:06:21
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 816
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
Starting with hearing Klipschorns when I was 14 because I rode by a Detroit Klipsch dealer every day on my way to my newspaper route. It was hard not look in the window!

I had build my first speaker when I was 12 and it progressed to 20 cubic foot boxes with Altec Pro Components (511B/808-8a) at 19 years old, until I could afford Klipschorns (right after meeting Bob Moers, President of Klipsch and Assoc.) when I was 23. Got my first bank loan to buy them.

Joined the Audio Engineering Society after buying the "Klipsch Papers" from the Hope, AK factory and finally meeting and spending a day with Paul W. Klipsch at his home and plant in August of 1985.

I also met and corresponded with Tom Danley and have owned a few dozen of his products in the last 7 years (including many subs and 20 TD-1's). I currently use 3 of his SH-50 Synergy horns with TH-50 subs.

This is my first time with Edgarhorns. I like big horns, and these are excellent now, but will be even better when I'm done "tweaking" them with all new components!!

 

RE: Modified Edgarhorn Titan II's Update, posted on October 14, 2021 at 16:23:27
you sir, have walked the path of the righteous horn evangelist!

and I admire that, it's a nice path!

it's great that you've got the resources, particularly space, to do it!

I love big systems, from huge horns to obelisk panels and beyond

best regards,

 

RE: Modified Edgarhorn Titan II's Update, posted on October 14, 2021 at 16:50:14
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 816
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
It's quite simple really. What Paul W. Klipsch did, primarily, was to promoted LOW INTERMODULATION DISTORTION, which not a single speaker company ever talks about.

Where SIDEBANDS of sound are created that never existed in the original music recordings.

Fewer watts required means less distortion, with a non-linear behavior that favors it positively with further gains when you use HORNS.

Since we do use horns, the bigger the BETTER. If a cone moves, it distorts, so horns are use to minimize driver motion.

Roy Delgado, Klipsch current Chief Engineer told me this: "Woofers move much more than tweeters, therefore, create more distortion. Logically it's the first place we should be using horns, but instead, 95% of the people that use horns put them on the tweeters, which need it the least."

Bottom line is YES, size does matter!!!

 

RE: +1 on the Fostex T900A..., posted on October 15, 2021 at 07:25:10
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 816
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
Which schematic are your referring to? I have seen 1 uF cap to 2 uF cap with some L pads. It seems Dr. Edgar EVOLVED his Titans over time as his experiences and those of his customers called for it.

I'm just glad I got, apparently, the last improvements before he passed, as a starting point. I'm able to garner bits and pieces of information and a few schematics on this forum that I can amalgamate into a workable speaker of Extreme Sensitivity with "jump out of your seat" Dynamics and Micro Details, also with AMAZING ambience recovery in recordings via my TIME ALIGNED version.

 

RE: Fane tweeter isn't all that great..., posted on October 15, 2021 at 07:35:44
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 816
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
Since you're the guy who totally missed the FACT that I improved the Bass Horn's balance and performance in the system by using a brand new Eminence driver vs. old EV and JBL's like Dr. Edgar did (posted curves to prove it).

You argued against my computer modeling and measurements, and knew nothing about the acoustic transformation gains of horn loading. So you will forgive me for ignoring your opinions on sound quality in like kind.

 

RE: +1 on the Fostex T900A..., posted on October 15, 2021 at 07:52:26
Rod M
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Posts: 16200
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
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March 1, 1999
For the 8 ohm Fostex, a 1 uf cap brings it in at 10K 1st order. The 2 uf cap was for Bruce's 16 ohm tweeter. I always thought the Fane tweeter was a bit too much which might be why he added the L-pad.


-Rod

 

+1, posted on October 15, 2021 at 11:02:08
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
!

 

Indeed..., posted on October 15, 2021 at 11:26:10
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
The Fane tweeter in my Edgarhorns is 8 ohms and Bruce used a 1uf cap. and I see no L-pad for the tweeter, just the mid-horn.













First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Modified Edgarhorn Titan II's Update, posted on October 16, 2021 at 12:24:18
trioderob
Audiophile

Posts: 753
Joined: May 15, 2015
what ever happened to Dr E ?

I hung out with him at his lab 20 years ago and heard some amazing speakers

one of them was a 2 way with tractrix wood bowls and tad beryllium compression drivers

 

RE: Modified Edgarhorn Titan II's Update, posted on October 16, 2021 at 12:48:28
surprised that you missed it, but he's RIP

this isn't the official obituary at the link but a nice tribute

 

RE: Modified Edgarhorn Titan II's Update, posted on October 16, 2021 at 13:05:13
trioderob
Audiophile

Posts: 753
Joined: May 15, 2015
wow -

thanks for the information .... like I said it had been 20 years since I had seen him. We did talk several times and I was at his lab once as I live in southern California too

he would tell me very funny things .... I will share a few

before I bought my house I was in an apartment and he refused to build me a seismic sub " I wont do it - it will set your entire apartment into a resonant frequency and get you kicked out "

I asked him if he was joking and he told me : " NO - that will create an entire acoustic watt !!! "

he was a big fan of the 45 triode with his speakers and told me first hand that they were a magical combo

he was a big fan of Cy Bremmen amps

he hated class "D" amps which were in their infancy then

his thing is that he did not want to listen any component which would make strident treble

he told me that the real test when it came to his speakers was pipe organ the question being " is this a realistic pipe organ reproduction ?

 

RE: Modified Edgarhorn Titan II's Update, posted on October 16, 2021 at 13:18:19
you're fortunate that you had the opportunity to meet him

though having never met him, I've listened to his designs and products several times in various settings, some less than ideal and they still sounded good to great ... in interviews he conveyed a sense of humor and humanity just as in your anecdotes

regards,

 

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