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Horn project taking shape

71.34.72.56
Posted on October 4, 2021 at 19:22:49
bald2
Audiophile

Posts: 338
Location: Oregon
Joined: January 21, 2006



Just need to finish cradles for the LeCleach horns, shorten the wires and finish the crossover cabinets.

Cabs are Onken/ Jensen Ultraflex style with 1" Russian birch and two inch front baffles from Joseph Crowe's plans. Woofers are 416As. LeCleach horns are custom, made by Gary Pimm here in Portland, OR. Drivers are 804As. Super tweeters are Jensen RP 302s in small enclosures. Cabinets and super tweeter enclosures made by Bob Thompson (Made in Bobland) here in Portland. He is an incredible craftsman.

Crossovers are by Pete Riggle and use his large paper in oil caps and other quality parts. They are based on Altec N800Fs. Crossover points model at 1136hz and 10khz. Using Parts Express L-Pads for tweeter and super tweeter attenuation.

Driving these with Antique Sound Labs ASL 1006 845 amps. Preamp is an Atmasphere UV-1 that has been modded for use with LOMC or MM cartridges. Current table is an homage to Joe Roberts: a Rek o Kut T43 with Karmadon 12" arm in a custom plinth by Bob Thompson. I also run CD (Sim Nova), reel to reel tape (Teac 2300S 7.5 IPS) and stream via Tidal. DAC is an MHDT Orchid. The sound is great so far-- meaty and rich but also sweet and open. Pretty much everything I've been seeking.

 

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FANTASTIC!, posted on October 5, 2021 at 06:04:17
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Say hello to Gary and my old pal (REALLY old) pal Pete! :-)

Miss you all.

Oh, and while you're at it, you won't be needing those Quad 57s anymore and shipping to Santa Fe can't be THAT much......


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Horn project taking shape, posted on October 5, 2021 at 06:43:19
Salectric
Audiophile

Posts: 1358
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 23, 2003
 Very nice! I have the Ultraflex plans but I am not familiar with Joseph Crowe. Do you have a link to his version?

 

RE: Horn project taking shape, posted on October 5, 2021 at 08:09:16
bald2
Audiophile

Posts: 338
Location: Oregon
Joined: January 21, 2006
 HI Ivan-
The Quads are staying nice and cozy here. Spider leg stands en route-:)

Salectric-
I found the plans on Joseph Crowe's site:

https://josephcrowe.com/collections/speaker-plans

He charges $15 or so. Mine are the exact same dimensions as the Jensen vertical Ultraflex but I'm using thicker wood. Crowe calls for 2" fronts and backs but I kept the back at 1". They are solid as can be. I used Ultratouch insulation on one side the back and bottom surfaces. Was concerned that they might be too small for the 416s at roughly 6.5-7 ft3 but the mod bass and bass is excellent.

 

Nice alternatives, posted on October 5, 2021 at 10:39:49
M3 lover
Audiophile

Posts: 6604
Location: SW Mich
Joined: May 29, 2005
Contributor
  Since: July 4, 2007
 having dynamic horn system and detailed Quad electrostatics, depending on the type of music you want to listen to. Well done.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

RE: Horn project taking shape, posted on October 6, 2021 at 09:46:56
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2382
Joined: September 27, 2004
 You say "Just need to finish cradles for the LeCleach horns ...-."

Can I ask how you plan to make your cradles? I had a similar problem when I wanted to replace the "scaffolding" that supports the mid-horn tube on my Avantgarde speakers with less unsightly cradles. I built one from MDF at huge effort in terms of time, but then had steel supports made as I couldn't face making the second MDF one! Peter





 

RE: Horn project taking shape, posted on October 6, 2021 at 12:28:43
bald2
Audiophile

Posts: 338
Location: Oregon
Joined: January 21, 2006
 The cradle design is essentially identical to the one on the right-:). They should be done in a few days.

Harry

 

RE: FANTASTIC!, posted on October 6, 2021 at 12:31:22
bald2
Audiophile

Posts: 338
Location: Oregon
Joined: January 21, 2006
 Hi "Ivan"-
I mentioned this to Pete and he says hello. I remember meeting you and your lovely wife at The Show in Vegas in 2003. At the time, my friend Kent Layden and I had a small business for fun called Two Bald Guys Audio. As Pete and I recall, you were living near the beach in SF at the time; is that right?

Best-

Harry Z

 

RE: Horn project taking shape, posted on October 6, 2021 at 12:36:07
rivervalley817
 they have two different support systems?

man, would that ever trigger my OCD!

regards,

 

Indeed, of course I remember..., posted on October 6, 2021 at 15:13:01
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 And seem to recall discussing what music we wished to be played as we are carted away for our final reward?

I'm sticking with Janet Baker as the angel in Gerontius.

We moved from San Francisco to Santa Fe three years ago last April. Living in a more rural setting and loving it.

Room for lots of audio. The Edgar Horns can breath again. Plus a workbench in the garage suitable for amp building.








First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Indeed, of course I remember..., posted on October 6, 2021 at 15:42:06
bald2
Audiophile

Posts: 338
Location: Oregon
Joined: January 21, 2006
 I will have to seek out that recording. I love her record of the Sea Pictures and her Mahler as well-:)

Santa Fe is gorgeous. I love it there and would love to come back. What part of town are you in?

 

We're about 14 miles SE of The Plaza..., posted on October 6, 2021 at 16:59:40
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 just south of Eldorado at Santa Fe. As the crow flies, we're about 4 miles north of the Amtrak station in Lamy, NM. Real country living but close enough to the town to be convenient.





Horns and cat in the 'casita'. The 'casita' was originally an artists space with a separate entrance attached to the main house, but now it's a dedicated 400 sq. ft. listening room. The cat is a stray we saved from the coyotes. He claims he's a descendant of Conquistador cats, but I don't think they had cats. Now the Moors in Spain MIGHT have had cats but I don't think the Conquistadors did.

Lots of history here though. Our property sits on land granted to the Bishop of New Mexico, 'Bishop Lamy', by U. S. Grant following the civil war.

Too bad that there are so few audio shows these day as that's where I expect to meet up with folks.









First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: We're about 14 miles SE of The Plaza..., posted on October 6, 2021 at 20:51:38
bald2
Audiophile

Posts: 338
Location: Oregon
Joined: January 21, 2006
 Beautiful-:). Love the room. And the cat-:). The Edgarhorns aren't so shabby either...

I sent this to Pete as a link and encouraged him to chime in....

 

RE: Horn project taking shape, posted on October 7, 2021 at 07:47:45
Larry I
Audiophile

Posts: 2229
Location: No. Va.
Joined: June 28, 2000
 Really nice looking setup. I like the drivers you are using too.

I have a similar setup using a Jensen Onken cabinet that houses two 12" alnico magnet woofers with pleated paper surrounds. On top, I have a Western Electric 12025 horn, with Western Electric 713b compression driver. My tweeter is a Fostex bullet type tweeter. My "cradle" for the horn midrange is not quite as fancy as yours--the horn sits on two automotive rubber inserts used to stiffen/damp coil springs and the back end of the horn sits on an old fishfood can (the height and angle are perfect, so why mess with it?). The crossover is on top, like yours, but it is built into ugly metal utility boxes. Someday (yeah right!), I will gussy up this thing, although I tell myself I like the "industrial" look of my speakers.

 

RE: Horn project taking shape, posted on October 7, 2021 at 09:51:03
mnawaz3@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 502
Joined: March 28, 2002
 Harry Z.. is this you?

anyway, your 416 and horn should sound musically sublime. in my house, the jensen ultraflex was always a winner. only beaten (with a lot of conditions) by my tricked out modded A5. i have always envisioned my last speaker being a 414 in ultraflex cab with something on top. the 416 is superb but i think inched out in midrange intimacy by 414 (at least in medium sized room).

as a lark, i recently tried something similar to what you are doing. i used the 10" woofer from altec bolero on bottom and at 1200 crosseover over to radian 745 on jeffrey jackson le clearch horn. i bi-amped because it is easier and possibly better. i plan to use this in my 'den' . i wont worry about my son(6) destroying this .

by the way, i have moved to New Mexico. outside Santa fe. really nice here and have no desire to return to parkways and turnpikes. gravel and dirt roads are better for me.

munna

 

RE: Horn project taking shape, posted on October 7, 2021 at 11:11:41
mnawaz3@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 502
Joined: March 28, 2002
 for smaller round horns i found that i could cradle them in a combo of hard & and soft foam. for bigger horns i had to create a giant 'bra'

 

RE: We're about 14 miles SE of The Plaza..., posted on October 7, 2021 at 12:55:52
PeteRiggle
Manufacturer

Posts: 35
Location: Kennewick WA
Joined: April 27, 2004
 Hey Ralph,

I like the cat. I've always enjoyed hanging with you. Good to know where you are. Say hi to Betsy.

Pete

 

Beautiful Cabinet!, posted on October 7, 2021 at 14:20:44
Steelhead Mike
Audiophile

Posts: 104
Location: New England
Joined: September 2, 2000
 Would you know the weight of the cabinet when empty?

Cheers,
M

 

RE: Horn project taking shape, posted on October 7, 2021 at 19:41:35
bald2
Audiophile

Posts: 338
Location: Oregon
Joined: January 21, 2006
 Love it! Can you post a pic or two?

 

RE: Horn project taking shape, posted on October 7, 2021 at 19:45:26
bald2
Audiophile

Posts: 338
Location: Oregon
Joined: January 21, 2006
 Hi Munna!
So great to hear from you-:). Long time, indeed. I'll have to get down to Santa Fe again and look up. you and Ralph (Ivan 303). Sounds like you've built a nice rig. Are your A5s standard with 1005 horns and 288 drivers?

Are you still in touch with Dave Calvello and the other buys?

Harry

 

RE: Horn project taking shape, posted on October 10, 2021 at 08:40:56
Retsel
Audiophile

Posts: 1239
Joined: April 17, 2000
 It looks, and I bet it sounds great!

I have a controlled directivity audio system as well. I originally had the bass speakers sitting more towards the room center than the midrange/treble waveguides and it sounded great. I took steps to move the bass speakers right under the midrange/treble waveguides to vertically align the speakers thinking that it would sound better. I found that my bass response was poorer because of how the speakers interacted with room modes. To enable sitting where I do in the room, and to optimize the bass frequency response at that spot, I find that I need to position the bass speakers more towards the center of the room than the midrange/treble waveguides.

If you have not done this already, you may want to figure out the best position for your bass boxes before you decide to build the cradles for your horns. You may find, like I did, that aligning them vertically does not result in the best sound.

Retsel

 

RE: Horn project taking shape, posted on October 10, 2021 at 10:14:00
bald2
Audiophile

Posts: 338
Location: Oregon
Joined: January 21, 2006
 I bet it's really good. Love the cradle solution, too-:)
Pics?

 

RE: Horn project taking shape, posted on October 10, 2021 at 10:15:39
bald2
Audiophile

Posts: 338
Location: Oregon
Joined: January 21, 2006
 That's meant for Larry...

 

RE: Horn project taking shape, posted on October 10, 2021 at 23:52:00
mnawaz3@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 502
Joined: March 28, 2002
 HI Harry

have not been really in touch with too many audio folks. got a kid(6) now and free time is a thing for the past. having said that, the move to NM was an attempt to get some of it back. so far, its working. time moves more slowly here but in a really good way. sun, star, moon, clouds are now an important part of my life. still unpacking . there is an old russian saying. "2 moves = 1 fire". so this will be last move.

i moved on from modded A5-type system long ago. its strengths were, with the right recordings almost unbeatable, but its weaknesses eventually made me give them up. apart from that, they were really a bit too big-sounding for my 19x17 room. i actually, enjoyed them more from next room. i briefly flirted with Edgar horns but really could not get them to deliver my A5 magic. after that, it was variety of different things.

now i am planning a rather ambitious 4/5 way horn system. it will be rooted by some double-woofer mid-bass bin with some altec woofer. it might be a cross between inmates (Joe- amazing horn system) and Merdys altec-based 4-way. both have outstanding systems that are worth emulating. my new room is 16w x 25L x 14h . i am thinking (or hoping) it will be 'just' big enough for a big 4/5 way horn system.

do come down. if you can swing it, plan on coming down any time except April (windy/muddy). rest of year is usable. i am about 40 minutes outside Santa FE with perfect (dare i say that) summer weather.

keep me posted on your system development. i feel quite deprived without an ultraflex cabinet in my house to fall back on.

munna

 

RE: Beautiful Cabinet!, posted on October 11, 2021 at 17:30:25
bald2
Audiophile

Posts: 338
Location: Oregon
Joined: January 21, 2006
 Over 100lbs-:)

 

RE: Horn project taking shape, posted on October 11, 2021 at 20:16:17
bald2
Audiophile

Posts: 338
Location: Oregon
Joined: January 21, 2006
 At a good friend's suggestion, I bought a pair of Fountek 3.5H ribbon tweeters and am using them in lieu of the RP 302s. The 302s were only giving me about 2K of usable response, from 11K-13khz or so. After all, it is a vintage tweeter.

The 3.5s sound great and were $66 each, shipped from Madisound. They integrated marvelously in the system and are a noticeable improvement in the top octave. The RP 302s will be going up for sale.

 

Thanks for the info! , posted on October 12, 2021 at 07:01:08
Steelhead Mike
Audiophile

Posts: 104
Location: New England
Joined: September 2, 2000
 NT

 

RE: Horn project taking shape, posted on October 12, 2021 at 14:10:18
hottattoo
Audiophile

Posts: 141
Location: New York
Joined: July 30, 2011
 Hi, Munna

Glad to see you made it safely to NM. It will certainly take some time to get organized and start building your system. I miss you and the guys from NJ !!

Best wishes,
Joe

 

RE: Thanks for the info! , posted on October 13, 2021 at 09:27:21
bald2
Audiophile

Posts: 338
Location: Oregon
Joined: January 21, 2006
 of course-:)

 

RE: Horn project taking shape, posted on October 13, 2021 at 09:32:04
mnawaz3@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 502
Joined: March 28, 2002
 Joe

good to hear from you. hope you all are enjoying fall.
if gets too hot and humid next summer, plan on coming here to relax. time stands still and every summer day this year here was perfect. no humidity. 70-75 everyday.

boxes every where. i stil have not set up equipment stands. i had to expand the doorway to bring in the jbl 4550. thinking i will get around to 1st iteration of horns in NM next month. next year i will probably try to make another double woofer cabinet that will lower cut off to 70-80.

Munna

 

RE: Horn project taking shape. UPDATE, posted on October 14, 2021 at 12:17:24
bald2
Audiophile

Posts: 338
Location: Oregon
Joined: January 21, 2006



Cradles and Fountek 3.5H ribbons in stands now installed-:)

Harry

 

RE: Horn project taking shape. UPDATE, posted on October 15, 2021 at 07:56:45
mnawaz3@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 502
Joined: March 28, 2002
 Harry

do you a summary of the pro(s) and con(s) of your driver arrangement versus stacking them vertically. my simplistic thinking your arrangement might be easier to blend the driver elements.

thks
munna

 

I don't know about that ribbon, posted on October 16, 2021 at 17:20:11
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 6064
Joined: April 6, 2000
 I must say I have not been all that pleased with results when adding ribbon/planar super tweeters to compression drivers. Especially since a good 1" compression driver should be able to have plenty of high frequency extension..

 

RE: Horn project taking shape. UPDATE, posted on October 17, 2021 at 13:51:08
bald2
Audiophile

Posts: 338
Location: Oregon
Joined: January 21, 2006
 Yes, they should probably be mounted vertically but that would probably create some lobing or problems since the center to center distance would increase a few more inches. As is, they seem to meld beautifully and so far I don't have any complaints. The ribbons are the same sensitivity as the woofers and they are only covering the top octave...

 

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