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As there is no 'sub-woofer' forum, might as well start here.....

76.127.54.176
Posted on January 24, 2021 at 09:28:56
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 At what frequency does sound become non-directional, i.e. one can not easily discern its point of origin.

If a build a rather large sub, location will be a problem and I do not have room for two properly place subs of any size, even small.






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

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RE: As there is no 'sub-woofer' forum, might as well start here....., posted on January 24, 2021 at 10:21:00
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5370
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 In the vicinity of 100Hz, but it's not that simple. If play a 100Hz tone with high THD you'll hear the primary components of that THD, 200Hz and 300Hz, which will make the sub directionally locatable. That's why the most commonly used crossover frequency is 80Hz. OTOH I can play a 120Hz tone through my folded horn sub and not locate it, even though it's only a foot behind my LP. That's because it has less than 2% THD even at high listening levels.
That said, no matter how good the sub you can't fix room response issues with only one sub. I don't have a problem in that respect, as the placement so close to my LP removes boundary reflections from the equation. If you can do that as well you may not have room response problems.

 

RE: "room response issues", posted on January 24, 2021 at 11:30:22
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 How would 'room response issues' manifest themselves?


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: "room response issues", posted on January 24, 2021 at 12:12:48
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5370
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 Peak and dips, mainly dips, in response, which cannot be fixed with EQ.

 

So worst case, at least with your horn subs, I could end up with peaks and dips..., posted on January 24, 2021 at 13:10:53
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 but at least I won't know where they're coming from. :-)

I can live with that!


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: So worst case, at least with your horn subs, I could end up with peaks and dips..., posted on January 24, 2021 at 16:58:59
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5370
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 The peaks and dips come from the combined response of the direct wave from the sub and the reflected waves from the room walls, floor and ceiling. By putting the sub very close to the LP you minimize the SPL of the reflected waves relative to the direct wave, and therefore their positive and negative influences on the overall result.

 

RE: As there is no 'sub-woofer' forum, might as well start here....., posted on January 24, 2021 at 19:24:47
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4306
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 Harmonics are why many listeners claim they can locate subs. They can't. If a sub crosses over low enough and is separated from the main speakers you can stand right next to the sub while it's blasting away and you won't 'hear' it. You'll hear the deep bass coming from the main speakers. I've seen it happen and I've experienced it. At a show a visitor stood right next to Pipe Dreams woofers and told the exhibitor the woofers weren't working. The grills had to be taken off the subs so he could put his hands on the drivers. Crossover was steep around 65Hz.

 

RE: As there is no 'sub-woofer' forum, might as well start here....., posted on January 24, 2021 at 19:30:28
rivervalley817
 you're a funny guy ... do you know who you're posting to?

be well,

 

OK, I give up - what is an "LP"?, posted on January 24, 2021 at 20:10:15
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 7295
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
 12" vinyl 33rpm recording?

LowPass filter?

Laser Player?

Lower perimeter?

 

RE: OK, I give up - what is an "LP"?, posted on January 24, 2021 at 20:15:29
rivervalley817
 has to be listening position ... it fits the context

you must have lost your acronym CS!

'cheat sheet'

regards,



 

Thanks..., posted on January 24, 2021 at 22:57:32
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 7295
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
 Too many acronyms for me!

 

RE: As there is no 'sub-woofer' forum, might as well start here....., posted on January 25, 2021 at 04:36:55
Scholl
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 1357
Joined: March 8, 2001
 I'll have to setup REW and move my woofer to the LP and measure that. There could be a dip due to the distance between the sub and mains but that's often the case anyway.

 

I have REW and the recommended mic..., posted on January 25, 2021 at 06:09:11
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 but have NFC (sorry Paul, can't spell THAT one out :-)) how to use it. :-(

Is the a 'REW for Dummies' book available?

I plan to use a steep (24db per octave) active x-over between the mid horn and the folded mid-bass on the EdgarHorns and also active x-over between the mid-bass and a future sub.

Would a steep x-over (say at 100Hz) between the mid-bass and sub make it LESS likely to have dips due to differing distance between sub and mid-bass?

That's assuming that the sub amp has phase correction?




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Or perhaps merely reinforcing the previous post with his own, first-hand experience?, posted on January 25, 2021 at 06:50:13
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Reasonable behavior?





First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Or perhaps merely reinforcing the previous post with his own, first-hand experience?, posted on January 25, 2021 at 09:18:25
rivervalley817
 yes, you're right Ivan, I was probably out of turn there

my apologies to hahax, I've found his contributions to be quite valuable

and he's been a good sport as far as I'm concerned

a bit of my mean streak surfaced last night

a few doors opened that I shouldn't have walked through

so I'll own that and clear my eyes so to speak

thanks for the critique, gotta stay honest!

best regards,

 

I thought LP was Long Play vinyl.... NT, posted on January 25, 2021 at 09:24:10
Alpha Al
Industry Professional

Posts: 2958
Location: N. Carolina
Joined: February 16, 2004
Contributor
  Since: December 3, 2015
 NT

 

RE: I thought LP was Long Play vinyl.... NT, posted on January 25, 2021 at 09:43:25
rivervalley817
 it is ... [checks acronym cheat sheet, or 'ACS'] as heard from your LP!

<> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ <>

 

RE: As there is no 'sub-woofer' forum, might as well start here....., posted on January 25, 2021 at 11:35:21
Craiger56
Audiophile

Posts: 5571
Location: San Jose CA
Joined: April 3, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 29, 2003



Could you go in your attic or under subfloor? Two (or more) subs are SO much better than one.

 

RE: I thought LP was Long Play vinyl.... NT, posted on January 25, 2021 at 13:58:04
RPMac
Audiophile

Posts: 377
Location: So. Mississippi
Joined: January 3, 2005
 Using acronyms is lazy and lacks communication...BWTFDIK

 

RE: I thought LP was Long Play vinyl.... NT, posted on January 25, 2021 at 14:20:44
rivervalley817
 lol ... good one!

mine rarely venture beyond any given three symbols

AFAIK

 

It depends..., posted on January 26, 2021 at 01:25:47
Duke
Dealer

Posts: 4429
Location: Princeton, Texas
Joined: March 31, 2000
 If the subwoofer is further away from you than the main speakers are by at least a foot or so, and preferably in the general vicinity of the main speakers, then you can get away with a higher lowpass filter frequency and/or more gentle slope. This is because the ear tends to localize sounds based on the directions they FIRST arrived from.

But if the subwoofer is closer to you than the main speakers, and assuming it's not practical for you to dial in a bit of delay, then the frequency and slope of the lowpass filter become more critical. And even moreso if the sub's output is arriving from a very different direction than the main speakers. In this sort of scenario the answer is "it depends", but I'd suggest at least a 4th order slope for the lowpass filter, set probably no higher than 60-80 Hz, and even that may not be low enough.

The general principle is, if the sub's output arrives first, you DO NOT want it passing upper bass/lower midrange loud enough to betray the sub's location when the system is playing. You will of course be able to hear where the subs are located when the mains are off, but that doesn't matter.

Duke


Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.

 

RE: It depends..., posted on January 26, 2021 at 05:34:57
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5370
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 FWIW my sub is a foot behind me, my mains 12 feet in front of me. My crossover is 4th order at 100Hz. I can't localize the sub at any volume, cannot even tell that it's behind me. That's partly due to the crossover slope, but just as much due to the imperceptibly low THD of my sub.

 

RE: It depends..., posted on January 26, 2021 at 05:52:50
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 7295
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
 I think you said your sub was a folded horn, so I have to ask what the path length is? Just to clarify the time delay difference.

 

RE: It depends..., posted on January 26, 2021 at 08:21:18
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5370
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 14 feet. I don't need to delay the sub signal.

 

Is it one on your wib site?, posted on January 26, 2021 at 09:21:07
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 if so which one?




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Tapped horn sub?, posted on January 26, 2021 at 09:27:37
Jim D.
Audiophile

Posts: 854
Location: FL
Joined: October 26, 2000
 I agree with others that should find a way to use 2 subs. Have you considered a vertical tapped horn? My subs only take up a 14" square footprint but are 7 ft tall and use a 12" driver! Not recommended for HT but incredible for music.

Jim

 

Very interesting!, posted on January 26, 2021 at 09:46:28
Duke
Dealer

Posts: 4429
Location: Princeton, Texas
Joined: March 31, 2000
 That 14-foot(!) path length is arguably a highly worthwhile advantage in this application, with the sub nearfield (right behind your listening position) where its relatively loud direct sound presumably dominates over the room's effects.

Very well thought-out and very nice!

Duke




Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.

 

RE: Very interesting!, posted on January 26, 2021 at 11:07:23
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5370
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 There wasn't that much thought put into it. I put it where it worked best and it just worked out that way.

 

RE: Is it one on your wib site?, posted on January 26, 2021 at 11:11:06
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5370
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 Mine is the Table Tuba. Most over the top HT guys build Tuba HTs, mainly because they don't think a horn loaded with an eight or ten will shake the walls, but I've yet to have a complaint a TT isn't enough.

 

Music..., posted on January 26, 2021 at 14:07:40
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Only music, no TV in the vinyl/tubes/horns 'casita'.

400 sq. ft. listening area. Plenty of spots for a upright 'table tuba' tower in long/tall configuration (15" x 16"? x 60").

MUSICAL more that visceral would be my preference.

80-90 Hz and down? Maybe 100Hz and down? Active x-over is 24db per octave at 60Hz currently but the Edgar folding mid-bass is at least 9dB down at 60 Hz, as would be expected. I'm DSPing the crap out of it in Audirvana just to get any bass at all between 80Hz and 60Hz, and that only works while streaming digital.

Vinyl just has to do without bass at the moment. :-(

Such is the reason for my original post.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: As there is no 'sub-woofer' forum, might as well start here....., posted on February 11, 2021 at 21:53:02
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 What is the Dolby or THX standard? Most HT receivers use 80hz. I'm inclined to think that this is about the upper non-localizable limit. But other factors DO play a part, as my reading of the rest of this thread would indicate.
I'd add that a minimum OverLap between sub and main speakers would be desireable.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: As there is no 'sub-woofer' forum, might as well start here....., posted on February 11, 2021 at 23:09:35
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 Few things can make a sub easy to localise (when cross-over frequency is around 80Hz or lower):

- harmonic distortion

- cabinet resonances

-out of band response (even 24dB filter has some)

- vibration of nearby object

 

RE: Music..., posted on February 15, 2021 at 23:20:52
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 I guess my bass horns are also seriously down at 60Hz, compared to 100Hz,
but still, I chose 60Hz 24dB to cross with my two subs. I tried 80Hz which seemed more logical ON PAPER but the sound was a bit slow and ponderous. It's like, the higher you go, the harder it is to match a direct radiator driver with a "heavy" cone, to a horn loaded mid bass. If you use (tapped)horn subs, it might be different.

I'm sure in my system there's a gap between 60 and 80Hz, or at least a serious down, but still, it sounds much better this way. Only on a fcouple of recordings does it sound slightly "weird" down low, but not to a point that it would compromise the enjoyment.

Of course, different system, different room, your mileage may vary, but my gut feeling is tat the room has more impact on the result that a seamless crossover, down low.

 

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