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Active x-overs - Sublime Acoustics...

76.127.54.176
Posted on November 25, 2020 at 11:25:56
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Anyone had recent contact with Mark at Sublime Acoustics?

Web site claims a bit of a backlog so I popped him an email asking about how long current backlog might be but have not heard back.

What with it being a holiday week in the middle of a pandemic, one could certainly understand both the backlog and taking a while to return an email, but was wondering if anyone has been in contact lately.

Not much on the web about the company, etc.

TIA



First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

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RE: Active x-overs - Sublime Acoustics..., posted on November 25, 2020 at 17:17:21
PaulF70
Audiophile

Posts: 1425
Location: Midwest
Joined: June 30, 2006
 Hi long-timer Ivan,

I'm sure you know this, but Marchand makes some really excellent active xovers too.

I use an XM66 with both Lowther horns and ESLs, and it is as close to transparent as you can get.

 

RE: Active x-overs - Sublime Acoustics..., posted on November 25, 2020 at 20:06:07
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 If I was to use an active crossover it would be digital, and it would incorporate a full function DSP. With all that it would still come in less expensive than the K231. For instance, the DBX PA2.

 

Adding a digital component.., posted on November 26, 2020 at 08:10:55
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 especially a 'pro audio' component, might not be what I'm looking for.

That said, Steve and Rich's 'Cogent' 'RCA' reproduction horns at RMAF many years ago, with a Ron Welbourne's Studer tape deck and two 300B mono-blocks per side, and DEQX (digital) doing the active x-over duty, gotta say is about the best reproduction I've ever experienced.

Don't know if I would dare to compare a $500 'pro audio' digital x-over to a $4000 DEQX system, but who knows?

As regards 'pro audio', I suppose the JBL 2441's in my system qualify?

PA is as PA does. :-)






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Adding a digital component.., posted on November 26, 2020 at 08:25:11
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 The PA2 has performance that would have required adding another digit to the price not so many years ago, and no matter how much you spend it's unattainable with analog. It's not far off from the DEQX.

 

RE: Adding a digital component.., posted on November 27, 2020 at 04:04:45
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 Any audible difference between digital xovers is due to the analog circuitry that comes with them.

Provided we compare apples with apples of course ie IIR to IIR and FIR to FIR with a similar number of taps.

 

RE: Adding a digital component.., posted on November 27, 2020 at 06:54:23
dave slagle
Manufacturer

Posts: 5430
Location: NYC
Joined: April 27, 2001
 Am I correct in reading the specifications that the PA2 does the A/D @ 48kHz and the DEQX is 96K 24bit.

Also how does the PA2 differ from the Behringer Ultracurve?

dave

 

RE: Adding a digital component.., posted on November 27, 2020 at 08:14:56
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 Seeing that a CD sample rate is 44.1kHz, so it's only good to 20kHz analog content, and that for an A/D sampling frequency of 48 kHz the measured frequency response will be better than ± 0.1 dB for the range 20 Hz to 20 kHz I'd say the PA2 A/D is sufficient. The equivalent Behringer would be the DCX 2496. Most users of the DCX 2496 are happy with it, but it does seem to have a high failure rate. I can't recall seeing a complaint of a PA2 failure or defect.

 

That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 09:14:11
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 unless you are an 'all DACs sound the same' kind of guy, which I am not.

And even if true, which my ears tell, sorry, no, I would prefer an analog solution as much of my listening is analog.

Have nothing against well recorded digital, even going so far as DSPing my horns using Audirvana, but only when streaming music from disc or over the internet.

But still, would prefer an analog active x-over as much of my listening is LPs.








First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 11:38:28
dave slagle
Manufacturer

Posts: 5430
Location: NYC
Joined: April 27, 2001
 I agree with you that converting analog to low sample rate digital for crossover work is a slippery slope. The one thing that has pushed a few of my friends down that slope is the ability to time alignment in the digital domain.... it is just another case of pick your poison.

dave

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 12:04:31
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 Saying you prefer analog electronics to listen to vinyl is like saying you prefer to watch vintage TV or movies on a CRT TV.

 

Actually, it's not, Bill..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 12:10:49
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 but from you I would expect nothing less. :-)




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 12:24:22
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17305
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 A to D and then D to A has no sonic penalty?

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Indeed, as was the case of the COGENT horns..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 12:41:09
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 as I understood it.

Time alignment was a real issue and also the need for steep x-overs.

No such problem here, as the folded mid/bass horn Bruce Edgar designed claims to be longer at the 500Hz x-over point than the salad bowel by an amount that allows reversing the polarity of the mid/bass horn to put it back into phase.

Or so I seem to recall. No promises as much time has passed and it was long ago.

An analog 24 dB/4th order x-over would be my first choice.








First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Clearly none that Bill can hear..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 12:43:40
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 But Bill is a speaker designer and, as it is said, when you are a hammer, everything looks like nail. :-)




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 13:07:22
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 A/D and D/A has been the norm in recording studios for going on thirty years now. Even if you're listening to wax if it was mastered after 1990 it was probably subjected to at least one A/D and then D/A conversion. Modern A/D and D/A converters don't have any sonic penalty, with every performance spec being far better than any form of analog was ever able to realize.

 

First is foremost, imho, posted on November 27, 2020 at 13:12:15
Mats Gunnars
Audiophile

Posts: 387
Joined: May 7, 2006
 Every time I've had to wrestle with pesky peaks,
and sought refuge in higher order cross overs, it has
ultimately come with a loss of sound quality.
That goes for both active and passive.
Today I favor a speaker that allows for
physical time alignment, and has components
that behave well enough in their required ranges
that simple first order can be used. If you need
higher orders, perhaps it's not the right driver?
And, as I have mentioned before, Dave's
Speakerformers are a divine tool for
attenuation whilst allowing much smaller caps.
Happy T-week, and good music for all!
-Mats

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 13:21:40
rivervalley817
 I preferred CRT over pixelated monitors / TV's when they first arrived

the color and motion fidelity looked much more natural to my eyes

I'm sure that was in part because it actually was and being used to CRT

once pixel density and refresh rates were vastly improved it looked far more natural until I saw a plasma TV ... now that the tech has essentially caught up it's a more even playing field, but still, my pal's huge old Trinitron that's still chugging along gets a GREAT picture and of course the occasional plasma's I see

regards,

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 13:29:33
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 Probably longer than that.

During the last 10 years or so of analog cutting lathes had digital look ahead rather than a huge tape loop so everything went through a very olde stylee A/D and D/A cycle before being committed to vinyl.

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 13:49:29
rivervalley817
 save the tapes! great point, that's how the Library Of Congress does it

regards,

 

Key words: 'behave well enough in their required ranges', posted on November 27, 2020 at 13:59:19
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 And at 6db per octave, suddenly those 'required ranges' can get pretty wide.

My horns cross at 500Hz which means I'm only 12dB down at 2000Hz on my mid/bass horn and 18dB down at 4000Hz, at least in theory if not a measured fact.

And I have absolutely no intention of changing drivers.

Unless, that is, Dave is willing to cut me a hell of a deal on a pair of his custom, bi-amped Quat 57s. :-)


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

I'm still waiting..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 14:03:12
Scholl
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 1358
Joined: March 8, 2001
 For the "affordable" digital input to 6 channel analog output to replace the DAC, preamp and crossover in one box. With one D/A conversion.

For now a single opamp preamp to Ashly crossover is doing well. I have yet to like a room EQ.

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 14:11:57
Uncle Mike
 Are Plasma TVs even made any more? I know Pioneer, having the best technology, dropped out a long time ago. I had two previously and what I have now is miles ahead in picture quality.
It seems LED and LCD are the best now. I have an LG OLED in my house and a Samsung LCD in the travel trailer that are amazing especially if you can get something to watch that is truly UHD.

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 14:27:16
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 My first 42 inch LED TV was a bit of a disappointment as well with 480 content, because the screen was large enough to make the picture less distinct. DVDs looked good, but broadcast TV was only fair at best, back before broadcast went to HD. Within only a couple of TV generations DSP fixed that. My new Sony OLED makes 1950s vintage shows just as clear on its 55 inch screen as they ever were on a 19 inch CRT.

 

RE: I'm still waiting..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 14:33:11
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 My AVR converts digital input to five channels of analog output, including a crossover between the sub and mains.

 

RE: Key words: 'behave well enough in their required ranges', posted on November 27, 2020 at 14:41:58
Mats Gunnars
Audiophile

Posts: 387
Joined: May 7, 2006
 I'm sure your drivers are beautiful.
Have you tried using a larger coil, values
corresponding to perhaps 200 hz?
My crossover point hovers around
400 and I'm using a 6mH inductor
on an 8 ohm woofer, and a 260 Hz
Volti horn that falls off quickly below 500
using Altec 290 drivers. With the Speakerformer,
I get great flexibility, adapting upper midrange
and hf to sources.
Then again, if it sounds good, why worry?
-Mats

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 15:48:33
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 817
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
 Hear hear. I used a 55" OLED as a computer monitor with incredible color and 4K rsolution. I upgraded to a 77 for the living room.

I agree with your analogy about digital vs. analog, but most people think of it as a Quasi-Religious exprerience rather than applied science with high resolution data.

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 15:49:47
rivervalley817
 hey! ... yeah I think plasma is dead and the NOS units have cleared the supply channel ... haven't tried OLED yet but I guess that's next

my audio / visual needs are pretty humble these days since we super downsized to the 'lil getaway' house. UHD content is rare unless I
spin the shiny BD disks ... 1080p is pretty much it

hope you had a Slappy Thank Turkey day!

regards,

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 15:55:58
rivervalley817
 as a computer monitor? holy shiat, how far away are you sitting?

that would be like getting 'tennis whiplash neck' watching the ball for me

of course, this damn place is set up like a shotgun shack with a side bdrm

well, that's my problem, you enjoy!

regards,

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 16:24:17
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17305
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 I use my turntable to listen to analog recordings from the old days. I have a multiplayer for the silver disks.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 16:34:49
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 817
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
 4 feet for the monitor With Yamaha NS-1000's and Mackie Sub under the desk. About 5 feet for the 77" in my Atmos Living room HT with Danley SH-50 triplets and 8 Pro Klipsches with 12" woofers and horns.

The 77" at that distance gives me the same Subtended angle as the sweet spot in my local Imax theater, without seeing the pixel pitch on the screen, (sweet spot visually AND acoustically) except I have Better sound tha Imax! No lie.

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 18:01:41
rivervalley817
 I bow down to your awesome!

would love to experience the directors cut of Blade Runner or Apocalypse Now! with your set-up

regards,



 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 19:11:56
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 My Sony has YouTube as a built in app. Not YouTube TV, YouTube. Out of curiosity I opened it last week and found the resolution on the 55 inch screen 12 feet in front of me is far better than on my 17 inch 1080p laptop two feet in front of me. The incoming signal is the same, the difference is in the signal processing done by the TV.

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 19:30:35
rivervalley817
 huh ... it's on my LG Blu-Ray player too, maybe the TV as well

and Roku as an app

never bothered with it before but I'll give it a look, thanks

the higher res and byte rate stuff is probably decent for background use

btw, those Roku 'thumb' units have some pretty surprising specs for such a tiny computer / receiver ... 4K resolution, low spec network player etc. ever try one? instant 'smart' TV upgrade for a 'dumb' TV for about $20.00

regards,

 

RE: Active x-overs - Sublime Acoustics..., posted on November 27, 2020 at 22:11:36
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 Well, I sure hope Mark is fine, and I sure hope he will continue building his FANTASTIC crossover!

I find it annoying when people try to shove a DSP based crossover in everyone's throat.
There are still people on this earth who don't like DSP.
I'm not completely against it, but I seriously doubt an entry level pro-audio or, worse, a mini-dsp would be able to give superior sonics.
Time aligned drivers and EQ are worthless if the price to pay is loss of micro informations and "ambience".
I use Sublime Acoustic's crossover and it's the best sound I ever experienced from such a device.
On price/quality ratio, it's probably the most incredible bargain I ever came across in 20 years of being an audiophile!

 

When was the last time you made contact?, posted on November 28, 2020 at 08:05:29
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Found a phone number at the bottom of a years old review. Don't know if it is still good. Also read something on another board where someone ordered one and had heard nothing back for some time so I am reluctant to order without contact first.

Marchand is a one time deal, no changing of x-over frequency without buying another unit.

Digital ones are far more flexible so I might have to bite the bullet and go cheap digital to find the perfect slope and frequency then go expensive analog when I have determined what x-over point sounds best.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 09:03:52
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 817
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
 I have the 4K Fire Stick from Amazon. My kids got me Disney+, to add to Netflix, and I get Amazon Prime for free (well, not really, right?).

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 09:50:38
rivervalley817
 I was going to use the Firestick but Roku are cheaper ... their top of the line has a voice search function that will reliably steer you to all the pay to play on demand programming that you can get for free with several of the included or available apps if you bother to look, a nice convenience feature ... for them

due to the 'cheerful' ongoing assault on consumer rights and against anti-monopolistic media ownership that was accelerated over the past four years, with 'we gotcha short hairs' usage structure and shitty service it look like we're hurtling towards $6K per year TV viewing 'privileges' nearly on schedule ... just as everyone was warned against when 'regulators' let those big media mergers go through

but hey, the invisible hand of the market will take care of it, right?

I mean, just look how that's worked out in the past:






[wow did this thread go off the rails]

best regards,




 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 10:16:26
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 I got my Sony, and a TCL for my daughter, because they're android. I didn't care for the Roku remote or the Amazon adware built into Firestick. This month I'm cutting the cable, the latest price increase broke the camel's back. I'm going to YouTube TV, which gives me all the channels that cable does, including local, and a virtual DVR, for $65 a month.

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 10:42:55
rivervalley817
 'gives me all the channels that cable does, including local, and a virtual DVR, for $65 a month'

which will become your new baseline for increases ... 'they' will get you coming and going ... grandma [my wife for example] will not willingly abandon the familiar in exchange for a cheaper but steeper learning curve on their remotes ... of course that's not true for everyone, but it's of course included in the carriers calculations

whatever the market will bear

this topic sure doesn't seem like it belongs on a speaker forum so I'll just go sit over 'there' ... forgive me should I not respond, I do enjoy your posts ... plus I'm scratching off some 'honeydo' painting where the prep time effort and cleanup far outweighs getting anything 'wet'

I just hate running into the abysmal project skills of those who came before me ... what a bunch of maroons! it looks like a herd of toddlers were set loose with oil based finger paint in the most garish colors imaginable

with regards,

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 11:51:22
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 We're not totally off topic. I bet there are those who yearn for the days of black and white TV and rabbit ear antennas too.

 

Mark at Sublime Acoustics got back to me..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 13:33:23
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Delivery is about two weeks, even in a pandemic, so all is well.

AND...

In typical Audio Asylum fashion, this thread has descended into a discussion of...

Plasma and Hi Rez TV.

Of course it has! :-)

Thanks all!








First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 13:38:05
Uncle Mike
 A year ago I not only cut cable I also ditched the satellite. I got the cheapest Fios plan which is 100mb, plenty for streaming. Hulu+ Live TV was $41 a month. After 2 months it went up $10 to $51, still not bad with all I had and coming from Dish Network even the commercials looked good. Now I see it's at $62/ month. I subscribed because I thought I could use it in my travel trailer while away. Nope, Live TV requires a fixed location. I swapped to just Hulu at $6/month and never looked back. With the internet TV provided by LG and Samsung I can always find something, in fact in some ways it is better. Peacock basic is free. Oh yea Verizon gave Disney+ with the Fios hook up so I get to watch the Mandolorian each week too.

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 15:16:09
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 817
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
 Not a chance on the rabbit ears. But color over the air waves are still OK.

I really like the option of 4K blue rays I can rent at Redbox for $2.00 or less, vs. paying $6.00 on line to save a 5 block drive. Netflix is fine at $8.99/month. Plus I like the stuff on Amazon Prime, included with my membership as a bonus. When I'm done watching all the Disney+ stuff my kids got for my birthday this year, I won't renew it.

I recall a co-worker in my engineering group in 1985 saying: "$12.95 for cable!! Why should I pay for something I get free on the air waves just to get no commercials. Besides, they will all eventually have commercials and raise the price!!"

He was right 35 years ago and he's still right! Look how many have cut the cord to cable TV, yet are on the same trend going cordless with the internet!

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 15:34:17
rivervalley817
 'the same trend going cordless with the internet!'

indeed ... there are plans waiting in the wings to spring that trap too

count on it

all we can do is either buy some time or ignore all that crap and haul out all those books we promised ourselves we'd read

after I find the right boxes in storage of course

with regards,

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 15:38:43
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 817
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
 Somone passed, and the person in charge of getting rid of stuff just sold me 3,000 DVD's and 850 CD's, so I'll be busy watching those for a while!

 

RE: Mark at Sublime Acoustics got back to me..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 15:48:24
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 817
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
 Yes, but it's still analog vs. Digital, moving forward.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 17:22:28
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001

Or 'pretty is as pretty does'.





And the JBL 2441 does very well withing it's range of about 500 Hz and up, and with an Edgar Salad Bowel tractrix horn attached, it rolls off naturally with the help of a first order x-over.

All good.

But the natural roll-off starts at about 600 Hz so I'd like a steep 24dB per octave roll of at 500Hz for the 2441 and an equally steep roll off at 500 Hz on the top end of the mid-bass folded horn.

Not having music in the 1000Hz to 2000Hz range being played by the folded mid-bass horn would likely clean up the overall presentation by a bunch.

And the 45 day return policy from Sublime Accounts makes for minimal risk and I can go back to bi-amping the horns which sound fine as it is.

We'll see.













First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Key words: 'behave well enough in their required ranges', posted on November 28, 2020 at 17:56:42
Mats Gunnars
Audiophile

Posts: 387
Joined: May 7, 2006
 I'm sure your drivers are beautiful.
Have you tried using a larger coil, values
corresponding to perhaps 200 hz?
My crossover point hovers around
400 and I'm using a 6mH inductor
on an 8 ohm woofer, and a 260 Hz
Volti horn that falls off quickly below 500
using Altec 290 drivers. With the Speakerformer,
I get great flexibility, adapting upper midrange
and hf to sources.
Then again, if it sounds good, why worry?
-Mats

 

Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on November 28, 2020 at 18:50:42
bare
Audiophile

Posts: 1879
Joined: April 14, 2009
 These fit betwixt source and Amp. As they are not active .. Only needs deal with line signal power levels .. they are Very simple and easy to construct using surprisingly Few inexpensive components.
Several Web site calculators are available to design/build your own.

But then AA is All about spending large.... not about being clever in ones' audio adventures.. is it?

 

Many thanks for keeping Bill distracted..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 19:03:37
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 with a subject he seems to have some knowledge and interest in while we sorted out the original topic. :-)


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on November 28, 2020 at 19:17:57
rivervalley817
 sure sounds like a recipe for crap circuitry to degrade the signal to me

I've never done it or heard it of course, but still ...

it just has to be bad

it's inherently impure

but if it sounds good to you etc.

<> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ <>

 

RE: Mark at Sublime Acoustics got back to me..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 19:23:03
rivervalley817
 HEY! I might have helped roll it off track but it's not my fault!

btw Ivan, how's your TV doing? ; )

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 20:01:01
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 I'd use a digital antenna for my local stations if that was an option, but when I say 'local' I mean Portland, Maine, 50 miles away, and Boston, 80 miles away, with plenty of mountains in between. Netflix and Amazon have been my saviors during the pandemic.

 

RE: Many thanks for keeping Bill distracted..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 20:03:36
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 Distracted no, I just know better than to try to convert a Luddite. BTW, how's the Flat Earth Society doing these days?

Where electronic crossovers are concerned this ain't my first rodeo. I designed and built my first 3-way analog electronic crossover in 1983.

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 20:22:05
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 817
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
 For many of us.

 

RE: Many thanks for keeping Bill distracted..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 20:25:14
rivervalley817
 'how's the Flat Earth Society doing'

membership is steadily falling off for some reason






 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on November 28, 2020 at 20:26:26
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 A 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley 24dB per octave 'passive' x-over might end up having some parts.

Rather spend a bit and have it done the way I want it, although $500 is hardly 'audiophile' money. And with the Sublime Acoustics active x-over, if I want to change frequencies, it's all of $12 a pop for a small board to do so.

Another couple channels of 'spud' amplification I can do myself, albeit in kit form and hardly 'audiophile' money.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Many thanks for keeping Bill distracted..., posted on November 28, 2020 at 20:29:27
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 817
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
 are the TLO 72's (or family thereof) still a good op amps?

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on November 28, 2020 at 20:29:41
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 The main difference between line level passive crossovers versus electronic crossovers is very high insertion losses, which grow progressively worse with each additional filter order. They're better than no crossover, but barely.

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on November 28, 2020 at 21:21:12
rivervalley817
 never cared for the graphic equalizer with the smiley face as a kid?

man! that made the old Superscope sound like ... well, an old Superscope

but still, add some off board reverb and even the Cowsills rocked! Hard!

great for the more highbrow selections like Dick Hyman Plays Bach On MOOG!

ah well, carry on with your 'bourgeois' tales of 'insertion loss' ... bah!

sadly only serious listeners got to hear & appreciate the great old gear

sorry man, didn't mean to stir up any old jealousies or anything

carry on

regards,



 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on November 28, 2020 at 22:57:10
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 those line level passive crossovers may work but are often nowhere near as precise as the active ones, not to mention the hassle of having to build new ones every time you swap amps because of different impedances...
The K231 crossover really isn't expensive at all (proof: I was able to buy it) and offers incredible performance.

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 29, 2020 at 04:08:39
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 They stillused analogue master tapes but from the mid to late 70s instead of using a dodgy very large tape loop the used a digital delay to cut the mothers for the vinyl stamps.

As you can imagine at 15ips a few seconds of look ahead would need a quite large loop which is unwieldy and difficult to keep straight and true.

But either way most vinyl records from the 70s onwards went through one stage of AD-DA during production, most likely 14bit.

 

'all DACs sound the same', posted on November 29, 2020 at 04:16:58
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 I did not say that however the reason they sound different is the analogue circuitry they use and to a lesser degree how well the clock is implemented.

If your DAC is not reclocking the data stream it is not worth owning.
If it does reclock that is as good as it gets because an external clock can at best be no worse than the internal one, it can never make things better.

 

RE: Many thanks for keeping Bill distracted..., posted on November 29, 2020 at 06:09:54
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 They're OK, but it's the spec versus sound thing. Modern op amps spec out far better, but they don't necessarily sound better.

 

RE: "Modern op amps spec out far better, but they don't necessarily sound better.", posted on November 29, 2020 at 06:18:11
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001



Luddite indeed! :-)




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: That's a pretty bold statement..., posted on November 29, 2020 at 08:32:16
rivervalley817
 that's my understanding too ... the first 'landmark all digital mastered' LP was Culture Club - Karma Chameleon ... hated that group but of course just had to have the LP ... it did have pretty stellar production though

regards,

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on November 29, 2020 at 09:05:17
jad
Audiophile

Posts: 228
Location: OH
Joined: August 23, 2002
 What do think about the Mini DSP 4 x 10 Hd? It seems more suitable for home use with RCA connectors and is about the same price as the PA2.

 

Yep..., posted on November 29, 2020 at 09:53:49
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Except for analog signal path, power supply, clocks and digital filters, all DACs sound the same. :-)

Personally, I prefer the sound of R2R ladder DACs, be they PCM1704 based (sadly all gone) or based on discrete resistors. I have one of each and sadly sold one based on eight PCM1704s.

What was I thinking?




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on November 29, 2020 at 10:03:01
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17305
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 Funny you mentioned the Cowsills.

I did a lot of work with John in the studio. He's a great guy and a great drummer.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on November 29, 2020 at 10:45:50
Tom Brennan
Audiophile

Posts: 5854
Joined: January 2, 2000
 Kurt Chang, whom the old timers still here knew, made passive filters for bi-amping that sounded pretty good. He made some for me that I used with Altec A5s.

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on November 29, 2020 at 11:22:29
rivervalley817
 I'll have to take your word on the drummer part ...

which I'm willing to do ... 'Indian Lake' was kind of catchy

thought it was a resort commercial at first

I suspect it started out life as just that thing but who knows

my first instinct was to name drop 'The Archies' though

with regards,

 

RE: What do think about the Mini DSP 4 x 10 Hd, posted on November 29, 2020 at 11:51:23
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 It appears to be fine, and has a good reputation. I don't have personal experience with it. It doesn't have the EQ etc that the DBX does. If you only have RCA connections that would take the DBX off the table unless you wanted to go to the trouble of conversion.

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on November 29, 2020 at 11:55:10
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 Karen Carpenter was a pretty good drummer as well. She never cared for fronting the band, always considering herself not a singer but rather a drummer who sang.

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on November 29, 2020 at 12:05:56
rivervalley817
 cool ... of you course you could tell that I was just trying to get a grin out of Bill with my equalizer / reverb riff ... well, I would hope so anyway. just hope that he did ... Bill?

I did actually own that stuff though. and was proud of it!

man that amp ran hot! in fact, everything ran hot back then except TT's and reel to reel's ... guess you could tell where the engineering was focused

in keeping with this forum though I need to mention that we listened to my homemade plywood monkey coffins loaded with old 15" Altec PA drivers somebody threw away because they were torn [and I 'repaired' with layered toilet paper and nail polish then painted black] + some 5" paper cones I thought must be mid-range due to size with bullet tweeters I had salvaged from a curbed console, that must have drowned in a basement flood, along with it's crossovers ... pure junk with not a thought they wouldn't work ... but they more or less did ... sounded glorious to us, and very efficient, you could barely turn the volume up more than a few notches ... I've no idea how low those 15's went but the damn things would rattle windows on the second floor and didn't just go 'thump'

anyway, thanks for your post, sorry to motor mouth here

regards,



 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on November 29, 2020 at 12:10:05
rivervalley817
 who'd have thought THAT? ... she was certainly a gifted vocalist, maybe one in a million with her command of breath and inflection within her range

quite the tragic figure when all's said and done ... you knew her?

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on November 29, 2020 at 13:37:05
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 We were contemporaries, on the road at the same time, never met. The thing about being a touring musician is that if you're successful you don't get to see many acts, you're too busy working. I met dozens of acts long after I had retired from the road and was working in the FOH. I know that her anorexia was in part fueled by insecurity, not the least of which was being forced to come out from behind the kit.

 

RE: Adding a digital component.., posted on November 30, 2020 at 07:46:09
dave slagle
Manufacturer

Posts: 5430
Location: NYC
Joined: April 27, 2001
 if you follow nyquest and say that all that is needed for reproduction is a sampling rate of 2X the highest frequency to be reproduced then what is the point of going to 96, 192 or 384K for sampling rates?

dave

 

RE: Adding a digital component.., posted on November 30, 2020 at 08:58:09
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17305
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 It places the analog brick wall filter (and the resultant phase shift) further out of the audio band.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Adding a digital component.., posted on November 30, 2020 at 10:13:14
dave slagle
Manufacturer

Posts: 5430
Location: NYC
Joined: April 27, 2001
 I'll side with ivan and believe no matter how many A/D >> D/A conversion there have been in the manufacture of my vinyl, adding another one after the fact cannot be considered benign.

In the small amount I have played with digital, I have always preferred the sound without the brickwall and maybe moving to a higher sample rate negates this. My take about sample frequency is more along the lines that nyquest lets you deconstruct a signal from a 2X sample frequency but deconstructing and reconstructing that signal from those two points in real time seems like a much more difficult proposition. Upping the sample rate logically makes it seem like an easier task. I am all for manipulation in the digital domain one there but that is quite different than saying the transition form analog to digital and back occurs without sonic penalty.

dave

 

RE: Adding a digital component.., posted on November 30, 2020 at 10:33:07
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17305
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "I have always preferred the sound without the brickwall"

You can't digitize a signal without first making sure that no signal higher than one half the sampling rate get to the A to D so I don't know what you mean. Unless there is a different way to keep the A to D from creating alias frequencies that I don't know about?

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Adding a digital component.., posted on November 30, 2020 at 12:56:42
dave slagle
Manufacturer

Posts: 5430
Location: NYC
Joined: April 27, 2001
 I was referring to the filter at the output of a Dac.

dave

 

RE: Adding a digital component.., posted on November 30, 2020 at 13:51:44
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17305
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 Yeah, that one is not mandatory. A lot of times it's just one cap to ground.

So back to the question, the higher the sampling rate frequency, the higher the analog brick wall filter frequency that precedes the A to D is and therefore more out of the way of the music. Filters shift phase both above and below the knee frequency. Or at least that's the way I understand it.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Adding a digital component.., posted on November 30, 2020 at 19:08:16
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 That's part of it. Can you hear it? It's like those who insist that tweeters with 40kHz response gives improved sound over those with 'only' 20kHz response. They think that they can hear the difference, so they do. But don't ask them to prove it in a DBT.

 

RE: Adding a digital component.., posted on December 1, 2020 at 12:34:45
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17305
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 I don't know. I once perceived a lack of highs caused by too much shunt capacitance for the driver tube's output impedance to overcome. As I reduced the shunt capacitance beyond what should have been needed, in terms of the math*, I heard improvements.

*a low pass filter with it's knee at 200kHz will leave 20kHz un-touched in terms of amplitude and phase.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Adding a digital component.., posted on December 1, 2020 at 13:14:01
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 You may have heard improvements, it may have been confirmation bias. That's why engineers don't go by what they hear alone, they measure the results. You may not be able to hear everything that can be measured, but you most assuredly can measure everything that can be heard.

 

RE: Adding a digital component.., posted on December 1, 2020 at 14:41:36
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17305
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 well, that was my point. I had already removed enough shunt capacitance to get the -3db point of the low pass filter up to 200kHz or higher and then when I removed even more shunt capacitance I heard it. Maybe I was hearing something else.

BTW I think there are things that we can hear that might well be measurable, if we only knew what to measure. That is to say, you can have a circuit that measures perfectly well but still sounds bad.


You have to get deep into Psychoacoustics to even start to answer these questions.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Active x-overs - Sublime Acoustics..., posted on December 3, 2020 at 02:59:37
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 If you use the MiniDSP nanodigi, you don't have to compromise on this. The Nanodigi is digital in and digital out and then you can feed the split signals to separate, high quality, outboard DACs and then to the amps.

This allows you to completely bypass the questionable DACs that most digital XOs come with. Now the sound is as good as the DACs you use (it does require two or more DACs though...so added cost if you use really good DACs).

Note, this doesn't work for analog unless you buy a very good, studio quality, AD converter. So, for analog sources I think it is probably better to stick with an analog active XO or passive line level if one wants to bypass speaker level passive XOs.

 

RE: 'all DACs sound the same', posted on December 3, 2020 at 03:03:13
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 I would also argue that the DAC technology and digital filters (or lack of) matters quite a lot too!

I have not heard a Sigma/Delta DAC yet that I could live long term with and i have had some nice ones that sounded very good in most ways and used all different types of analog concepts (dicrete, opamp, tube). I still gravitate towards R2R DACs for a more "natural" feel but I also prefer those with tube output stages.

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on December 3, 2020 at 17:50:48
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17305
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 Well, John is all grown up now and playing with the Beach Boys including their 2012 Grammy Award reunion with Brian Wilson and subsequent reunion tour.

You may or may not notice but John is playing Hal Blaine's drum parts just like on the record. In an interview John talks about how important he thinks that is.






View YouTube Video


Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on December 3, 2020 at 18:42:59
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17305
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 Here's John at my studio in the mid 90's on a Clayton Cages (the Cages) project with JR Getches on guitar. The song is "Farthest Star".

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on December 3, 2020 at 18:56:40
rivervalley817
 damn ... yeah, he does have his swing down!

you just made me feel a little bit older than before I read this ; )

you didn't really make me, but I really do

best regards,

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on December 3, 2020 at 19:10:47
rivervalley817
 thanks for sharing !

who's doing vox on 'Pass Me By'?

regards,

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on December 3, 2020 at 19:16:20
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17305
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 I don't know who she is. I have lost touch with JR. You would have to find and ask him. Those five songs are songs that JR played on and Farthest Star is the only one I was involved with.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on December 3, 2020 at 19:42:38
rivervalley817
 I can tell that he's fond of George Harrison in general

yeah, wears some Beatles influences on his sleeve

there's not many that don't in that pop / rock vein, just sayin'

I hate losing touch with people ...

take care,

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on December 3, 2020 at 21:53:01
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 Well that's the thing about that Sublime Acoustic crossover: compared to the vast majority of similar products, it doesn't crap the signal at all! in fact, it sounds great - and the benefits of multi-amping are finally truly heard, without the usual "cheap circuit sound" side effect.
That thing really is a masterpiece, and an incredible bargain.
It takes a few weeks to burn in, because there are a lot of film caps in there, but once burnes-in... wow. Amazing.

 

RE: Also such a thing as "line level' crossovers., posted on December 3, 2020 at 22:34:54
rivervalley817
 sounds nice ... I'll look into it but only out of curiosity ... I've no plans to spend or change anything

just went through liquidating my 'good' stuff to get funds and my hearing sucks now anyway

but thanks for the recommendation!

 

RE: I'm still waiting..., posted on December 5, 2020 at 12:59:40
John Sheerin
Audiophile

Posts: 524
Location: PA
Joined: July 28, 2003
 MiniDSP? I rolled my own from their parts about 5 years ago. I have several digital input options and 12 channels of analog outputs for about $750, not including a case. They've changed some of their offerings since then, but I imagine you could put something similar together. I used two miniSharcs, an input and volume board, and 6 Curryman stereo dac's. You could do 8 channels off of 1 minisharc, so about half the price. I went with the miniSharc because it lets you run FIR filters (which I have yet to implement - been lazy).

 

RE: Adding a digital component.., posted on December 5, 2020 at 13:05:54
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 My experience measuring my speakers is the same as Floyd Toole's with the speakers he's measured: I've never had a speaker that sounded good measure bad, and I've never had a speaker that measured bad sound good.

 

RE: Adding a digital component.., posted on December 5, 2020 at 13:58:54
dave slagle
Manufacturer

Posts: 5430
Location: NYC
Joined: April 27, 2001
 the missing (more frequent??) option here is a speaker that measures good and sounds bad.

dave

 

RE: Adding a digital component.., posted on December 5, 2020 at 14:31:48
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 I've never come across one myself.

 

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