Which are the most efficient speakers?

Not saying it's the MOST efficient, but the Tune Audio Anima is rated at 109 dB. And unlike the Avantgardes, it does not use a separately powered woofer section.

Duke

Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.

3dB more than I would guess from the bass horn...., posted on August 17, 2020 at 07:31:52
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001	Box on top looks like it holds a conventional cone bass driver, which would likely be about 100dB? Plus another 6dB for the horn? But who knows? 106 db is fine an about what I have with my EdgarHorns. First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

RE: 3dB more than I would guess from the bass horn...., posted on August 17, 2020 at 11:01:59
Bill Fitzmaurice Industry Professional Posts: 5371 Location: New England Joined: October 20, 2002	There's an SPL chart on the review printed in French. Sensitivity is good, but as expected from a bass horn that's only some five feet long F3 is around 60Hz.

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on August 17, 2020 at 14:37:38

Cut-Throat
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Contributor
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My Oris Orphean Horns are 115db -- (Link Below). That is just the Horn (Mid Range and Coaxial Tweeter Compression Driver) --- My Bass Bins are 104db Klipschorn Bass Bins at 104DB - Separate Amps on Each.

http://www.bd-design.nl/contents/en-us/d71.html

http://www.bd-design.nl/contents/en-us/d71.html

Better than the folded horns in my EdgarHorns..., posted on August 18, 2020 at 05:59:33
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001	Maybe F3 at 90Hz? Maybe? I'd be happy with horn bass at 60Hz. Wonder how they deal with time delay/phase between the two horns? First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

RE: Better than the folded horns in my EdgarHorns..., posted on August 18, 2020 at 07:22:25
Bill Fitzmaurice Industry Professional Posts: 5371 Location: New England Joined: October 20, 2002	My HT folded horn has a 14 foot path, with a 28Hz F3. Crossed at 80Hz to the mains there's no audible delay with respect to the mains. What's painfully obvious at 500Hz you can't hear at 80Hz. Where the linked horns are concerned the two are physically close enough that even with a 250Hz crossover the 5ms or so delay differential wouldn't be audible.

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on August 19, 2020 at 04:58:48

rodge827
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The Charney Audio Concerto Lumaca is rated at 107db and needs no bass augmentation. Bass is clean, clear, and deep with no room node issues. I listened to it a couple on months ago and have never experienced anything like it.

Concerto Lumaca

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on August 19, 2020 at 20:43:06
BillWojo Audiophile Posts: 186 Location: NJ Joined: July 7, 2017	Those Charney Audio Concerto Lumaca would creep me out for late night listening. Looks like some alien life form. BillWojo

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on August 20, 2020 at 02:12:36
b.l.zeebub Audiophile Posts: 9361 Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W Joined: April 17, 2006	What kind of acoustic treatment have you done in the room to avoid node issues as there is none visible? A speaker itself can't avoid them unless you use eq surgically to stop it from reproducing the offending frequencies.

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on August 20, 2020 at 03:08:47

cawson@onetel.com
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I'd be interested to know why you are asking.

There are of course advantages of high efficiently but also disadvantages of taking this to extremes. These speakers reproduce minute signals as loud sound. What do they do with noise from amplifiers or anything else in the supply chain? They exaggerate this noise dramatically. Thus choice of amp is far more important as you go up the efficiency scale - to the extent that tube amps are generally too noisy for very high efficiency speakers - at least to those listeners who don't want to put up with any sound that didn't exist at the live recording. This is a shame as horns of moderately high efficiency are often teamed very successfully with tube amps.

Avantgarde Duos, posted on August 20, 2020 at 11:32:51
JazzDude Audiophile Posts: 368 Joined: July 30, 2002	Just for clarity. Avantgarde Duo versions 2 through 3 were 8 ohms and as I recall 103db efficiency. Adding the Omega upgrade resulted in those versions becoming 16 ohms with 107db efficiency. Without looking this up, I assume all Duos made post Series 3 are 16 ohms with 107db efficiency. Enjoy your speakers!

RE: Avantgarde Duos, posted on August 20, 2020 at 13:22:51
cawson@onetel.com Audiophile Posts: 2381 Joined: September 27, 2004	Latest version is Duo XD quoted as 18 ohm and 107dB. Lucky me - I have a pair on order!

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on August 20, 2020 at 15:39:01
Retsel Audiophile Posts: 1239 Joined: April 17, 2000	The raw driver is rated at 98 db at 3 khz. How can a back horn bring that efficiency up to 107 db - the answer, of course, is that it cannot. Unless, of course, the bass is 15 or 20 db higher than the high frequencies... That efficiency figure has to be bogus...

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on August 20, 2020 at 16:16:35
rodge827 Audiophile Posts: 354 Location: South Jersey Joined: October 1, 2004	Your right! Not from this planet for sure! Creepy spooky awesome!! Bill your a Jersey guy Charney is located in Somerset about 5 minutes from NJT Exit 9. Look him up and take a ride for a listen, well worth the time.

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on August 20, 2020 at 16:34:30

rodge827
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b.l.zeebub,
Well there aren't any real treatments in the room. The Charney horns fly straight in the face of conventional room treatment wisdom. The photo is from the Charney listening/demo room. The room is 14'x19'x9', as you can see a tapestry hangs between the speakers, Michael Green corner treatments in all corners at the ceiling. The interior entry door has curtains as well as an exterior sliding glass door and curtains for the windows which you can see a small piece of in the pic. That's it! No diffusers, bass traps, panels, voodoo room correction etc...

The horns couple with the room due to the rear loaded design. Moving them in and out from the front wall and corners determines the bass, clarity, imaging, and soundstage. So you can custom tune to your liking at your listening position. Just remember the larger the horn the larger the room. I have a pair of Charney Companions in my 11'x 15'x 8' room and they sounded better as I removed room treatments from the monitors I previously had. My room is way to small for the Lumaca.

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on August 20, 2020 at 16:42:42

rodge827
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Retsel,

Are you referring to the Lumaca?

The driver is an AER BD3 106db

AER BD3 Specs

RE- the most efficient speakers - for 600mW SEDHT., posted on August 21, 2020 at 01:03:36

iodemus
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My last creations, 600 mW amps with SEDHT need them. The monoblocs employ WE102D, WE101D and RGN1064. All from the 20's. Made for professional telephony. Superior linearity and distortion. No microphony. No noise. No humm with filament chokes. The life of the WE-tubes is estimated to more than 50.000 hours. Search for Geiru Chan in the SET-forum.

In synergy with the right speakers, good music from japanese SACD's is beautiful and clean.

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on August 21, 2020 at 06:47:15

Retsel
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I was looking at the Voxativ specs. Looking at the AER specs in the link you provided, the top table lists the efficiency as 106, but if you go down to a lower table, the specifications show a 106 value and a second number with an asterisk, and the value there is 96 db. This is what I would expect for this driver in a back horn as it looks a lot like a Lowther and that is what the efficiency of a Lowther is.

To obtain a much higher efficiency, you would have to place the driver in a compression chamber in a front horn. If you did so, the efficiency would increase substantially, but forget about the high frequencies and low frequencies....

SPL dB 106 (96.2365*)

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on August 21, 2020 at 10:03:39
merid Audiophile Posts: 179 Joined: April 25, 2005	Interesting information.

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on August 21, 2020 at 15:25:31

91derlust
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The extremes tend to enforce diminishing returns. Good-sounding tube amps that are quiet enough, and sound good, are probably rare and expensive... depending on how one defines "quiet enough" and "sound good".

I think SETs tend to sound best with high efficiency. To work well in ultra-high efficiency settings, ideally, filament supplies are well-sorted, grounding well-arranged, and power supplies have low-ripple and good damping. For good sound, I like power supplies to have low enough impedance and fast enough recovery (though relieving the amp of large bass transients may reduce the recovery requirement). Most designs don't achieve all that. Moreover, ultra-high efficiency is revealing, so exemplary design and implementation are essential too. Expensive.

Or, one can chuck a mediocre SET amp on those speakers and find it wonderful and the noise not distracting. Go figure.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

bd design swing, posted on August 22, 2020 at 00:23:27

airairy
Audiophile

Posts: 43
Joined: July 19, 2008

115 BD
and sound amazing

http://www.bd-design.nl/contents/en-us/d224.html

I believe that Top Horn ..............., posted on August 22, 2020 at 05:38:29
Cut-Throat Audiophile Posts: 18286 Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area Joined: September 2, 2000 Contributor Since: May 16, 2021	Is the Orphean, which is what I use. I do remember the 'Swing'.... I have had mine for 6 years. I no longer think about changing speakers.

Invariably the ones you Do Not own , posted on August 22, 2020 at 19:19:35
bare Audiophile Posts: 1879 Joined: April 14, 2009	n/t

RE: Avantgarde Duo Primo XD, posted on August 25, 2020 at 04:20:26

Robert J

Read the first sentence pertaining to sensitivity in Lab Report.

Current Cost, floating exchange: $105,000.00

And the sweet spot for listening is only a couple of feet wide.

Choose placement carefully, each speaker weighs 400 pounds.

Don't invite too many guests to enjoy the sound of music

https://www.hifinews.com/content/avantgarde-duo-primo-xd-loudspeaker

https://www.hifinews.com/content/avantgarde-duo-primo-xd-lou

RE: Avantgarde Duo Primo XD, posted on August 25, 2020 at 06:26:40

cawson@onetel.com
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Hi Robert

I've not ordered that Duo - the Primo is in my opinion the dog in the Avantgarde family. It is ugly and grossly overpriced when compared with its smaller brother the Mezzo, or the Duo XD that I've ordered. In GDP the respective prices including 20% tax are 79,500, 47,500 32,500. Mine are the standard Duo XD and weigh a trivial 90 Kg each!

I'm not in the least interested in its true sensitivity as I'm not using sub-5 watt tube amps. I think you'll find that most sensitivity figures of speakers tested by magazines are lower than the makers' claims. Whether this is the accuracy or method of measurement I don't know - or care for that matter. I'd prefer not have excessively sensitive speakers as noise becomes an increasingly important and difficult to deal with feature

Yes, it's true that, when set up for optimum listening at the normal listening position, Avantgardes have a narrow sweet spot, but this is an exceedingly rewarding sweet spot where detail and imaging are far more convincing than other speaker types. If one wants a wider sweet spot (as for example in demo rooms at audio shows) this can be achieved by reducing the toe-in angle. Setting up is an art in itself and I'm happy with a narrow sweet spot.

I've been listening to Avantgardes for about 17 years, first with Unos (the ones that picked up 'Stereophile's Joint Speaker of the Year 2000' award) but now Duos from about 2006, so I'm not expecting any nasty surprises when the new Duo XDs arrive.

These are 3 or 4 generations up from the ones I'm currently enjoying - 18 ohm Omega drive units, bigger bass cabinets, twin 12" instead of 10" bass drivers, new internal amplifier and DSP are all enhancements over my old Duos.

I had considered the Duo Mezzo XDs but I wasn't convinced that the extra 15K price was justified. These speakers share identical drive units, crossover and amplifier - the only significant difference is the bigger flare-fronted cabinet to the Mezzo adding a little of a horn-like sound to the bass. I prefer the slimmer standard Duo appearance and I doubt the sound quality will be noticeable.

I'll post my initial impressions when they arrive next week, although it'll take another week or so to get them run in and set up. Peter

RE: Avantgarde Duo Primo XD, posted on August 25, 2020 at 08:50:13
Robert J	I enjoyed my (circa 2000) Uno's for a month. Loved the voicing, but could not sit for more than an hour or so listening to them. Such is life. Moved on to a conventional rectangular box.

RE: Avantgarde Duo Primo XD, posted on August 25, 2020 at 12:25:03
iodemus Audiophile Posts: 170 Joined: October 21, 2010	All Avantgarde speakers today are terribly overpriced. They are For people which money is no object. Very sad.

Avantgarde Duo XD - Price and Value, posted on August 25, 2020 at 16:23:37

cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

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You may think that but AGs have always been expensive. The sound quality is difficult to better at the same price, though many very much more costly speakers offer less rewarding listening.

And AGs retain their value much better than many other well-known brands. In 2003 I bought a pair of Unos new from a dealer - with a good discount. I sold them last year for EXACTLY what I paid for them after about 16 years - zero depreciation. I'm sure that the Duos I currently listen to (bought used last year) will fetch at least twice the price I paid for them. Whether my new Duo XDs will fetch what I'm paying for them new (with good discount) will fetch that price in 2036 remains to be seem, but I believe they will retain value very well.

Compare AGs with for example Magico or Wilson - they are bargains and will hold value far better. Peter

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on August 30, 2020 at 10:10:47
claudej1@aol.com Audiophile Posts: 817 Location: Detroit Joined: August 17, 2007	Klipsch Jubilee

Klipsch Jubilee or Danley. , posted on August 30, 2020 at 10:39:48
Bill Fitzmaurice Industry Professional Posts: 5371 Location: New England Joined: October 20, 2002	They're not bad, but where manufactured speakers are concern Danley Sound Labs probably make the highest sensitivity.

RE: Klipsch Jubilee or Danley. , posted on August 30, 2020 at 12:12:13

claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 817
Location: Detroit
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You are right. I used to own 20 of the USA TD-1's, (still have 4), Serial #0001 of the DTS-20, 3 DTS 10's, Tom Danley's prototype #3 of the TH-50 (he still has the other two), and 3 SH-50 front channels. After visiting HQ in Georgia, I was sold on the BC-415's as the most musical of the bunch. From small, to big, to HUGE, Tom is the most prolific speaker designer I know of..........not just US but the world.

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on September 1, 2020 at 03:18:49
Audioquest4life Audiophile Posts: 1842 Joined: March 6, 2004	I have recently acquired the custom built Classic Audio Reference T1.5 reference speakers which are making beautiful music in my listening abode. They are 16 ohms with a 98db efficiency rating. Driving them with a pair of McIntosh MC2301 300 watt tube amps. These replaced B&W N800s. I was on a speaker hunt for about two years and settled on the T1.5s after hearing them.

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on September 2, 2020 at 18:56:25

pictureguy
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Efficiency is measured in PERCENT.
Sensitivity in Db / 1 watt / 1 meter

They ARE mathmatically related, which is sort-of good news. Highest efficiency speakers? Probably not greater than 5% give or take.
My panels are certainy no higher than maybe 1% or so.
Too much is never enough

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-efficiency.htm

RE: Avantgarde Duo XD - Price and Value, posted on September 2, 2020 at 23:57:57
pictureguy Audiophile Posts: 22597 Location: SoCal Joined: October 19, 2008	Same NUMBER of dollars or the same VALUE, which would be MORE dollars, due to inflation? Too much is never enough

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on September 3, 2020 at 04:21:24

cawson@onetel.com
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In earlier decades (sixties, etc) sensitivity wasn't generally used but efficiency as a percentage was the main measure of the speaker's volume with a specified input in watts. In those days when valve amps were king and therefore offered relatively low output, efficiencies of between 10 and 20% were often offered by manufacturers. These would now be rated in high 90s or 100+ dB.

Not sure how efficiency was measured but if you put 20 watts into a speaker, they could measure its increase in temperature, so what wasn't dissipated as heat was in fact noise! Not difficult to calculate the percentage. Any other suggestions as to how efficiency was calculated?

RE: Avantgarde Duo XD - Price and Value, posted on September 3, 2020 at 04:26:54
cawson@onetel.com Audiophile Posts: 2381 Joined: September 27, 2004	Yes, true of course, but my point was that Avantgarde speakers hold their value exceptionally well when compared with most prestige brands. This justifies paying a little more than one was planning to spend in the first instance - maybe!

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on September 3, 2020 at 08:06:48

Paul Joppa
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Technically, efficiency is sound power output divided by electrical power input. Sound power (in watts) is measured either by integrating over a surface enclosing the source in an anechoic chamber or outdoord, or in a reverberation chamber. See the linked wikipedia article.

In practice, speakers are rarely measured that way.

sound power

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on September 3, 2020 at 08:41:07

cawson@onetel.com
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Interesting. No mention of Efficiency in that article but it does describe the way to measure the sound emitted by a speaker (or vacuum cleaner) in watts.

My hunch is that it would be much simpler to measure heat output (the energy that isn't emitted as sound) and to calculate what is sound by subtracting the heat output from the energy being sent to the speaker.

Watts put in, less watts wasted as heat, equals sound energy in watts. The result divided by the watts put in is Efficiency. School physics - QED!

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on September 3, 2020 at 09:56:47

pictureguy
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Posts: 22597
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Some conversion from a proper SPL meter would do.
Acoustic watts OUT divided by electrical watts IN should be correct.

Measuring heat is a little squiffy. You'd need to accurately know the MASS involved and the temp rise fairly accurately. You could get a first order approximation but getting it within a narrower margin would require some good gear, not to mention a proper space in which to take such measures.
You'd also have to account for the crossover inefficiencies and REACTANCE of said speaker. All that drops away if you just can accurately measure the accoustic output.
Too much is never enough

RE: Avantgarde Duo XD - Price and Value, posted on September 3, 2020 at 09:59:46

pictureguy
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Sure, if the resale percentage is AV speakers is higher than average for those in the orignal price category, you could say they represent a better 'value'.

And of course, it's up to YOU as to how much you value what may be minute differences between speakers and cost / benefit.

I've always tried to think that I won't let 'perfection be th enemy of good'.....Or at least pretty darn good, which can be affordable!
Too much is never enough

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on September 3, 2020 at 10:45:23
Paul Joppa Industry Professional Posts: 7296 Location: Seattle, WA Joined: April 23, 2001	The problem with using heat is that the efficiency is low, so the accuracy of heat measurement must be very high. If efficiency is 5%, that would be 100watts in minus 95 watts dissipated, so even +/- 99% accuracy of heat measurement would only provide +/- 20% accuracy in efficiency.

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on September 3, 2020 at 13:06:35

cawson@onetel.com
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Posts: 2381
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Yes, I'm sure you are right in saying there are ways to measure the sound output from a speaker in watts. It's an area I'm totally unfamiliar with, so I was suggesting that measuring wasted energy may be easier.

It may come as new to some that speakers "waste" the vast majority of what's sent to them from the amp and they end up simply getting hot as that's where the wasted energy goes. Thankfully my speakers are highly efficient (OK sensitive with 107 dB quoted), so I don't need a powerful amp where most of its output ends up heating the speakers.

I've also chosen to avoid inefficient amplifiers (where their wasted heat ends up warming my room) by moving away from tube amps (lots of heat) and Class A (also lots of heat) and really enjoy the sound produced by efficient Class D amp feeding efficient horn speakers. And the Environment has said Thank You for doing my bit!

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on September 3, 2020 at 18:47:14

Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
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107dB sensitivity is 31% efficiency, so it's pretty good. 98dB sensitivity, which many consider to be high efficiency, is only 4%.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-efficiency.htm

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on September 4, 2020 at 12:02:04

Duke
Dealer

Posts: 4429
Location: Princeton, Texas
Joined: March 31, 2000

"Technically, efficiency is sound power output divided by electrical power input. Sound power (in watts) is measured either by integrating over a surface enclosing the source in an anechoic chamber or outdoors, or in a reverberation chamber."

YESS!!

One can increase the on-axis SPL by focusing the output into a narrow angle, but the actual efficiency - the sound power integrated over a surface enclosing the source - does not correspondingly increase.

By way of example, consider an adjustable nozzle on a garden hose: The same amount of water comes out whether the pattern is narrow or wide, but the on-axis PRESSURE is higher with the narrow pattern.

A close look at uber-efficient horn systems often reveals an unusually narrow radiation pattern, particularly at the top end. Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but simply comparing the on-axis SPL numbers doesn't tell the whole story.

Duke

Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.

RE: Which are the most efficient speakers?, posted on September 8, 2020 at 00:20:23

KanedaK
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Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
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That is very true. There are some components that are perfectly fine but can't be used in my system because they are slightly more sensitive to RFI perturbations and the speakers expose all of it.
As for the amps, that is one of the reasons why I'm happy with tiny class D amps - they are absolutely silent. My system is on 24/7 and I can't stand hearing hum or hiss or weird noises when there's no music playing!

RE: Avantgarde Duo Primo XD, posted on September 25, 2020 at 15:38:24
Leefy Audiophile Posts: 97 Location: British Columbia Joined: April 19, 2003	Hi Peter: I noticed you mentioned you have 12" woofers on your current Duo Omegas. I have the Duo Omegas as well but mine use the 225 subwoofer which has just 10" drivers . Are you using the 231 sub unit? Thanks Lee

RE: Avantgarde Duo Primo XD, posted on September 25, 2020 at 16:22:17

cawson@onetel.com
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No my new purchase is the latest Duo XD. This has twin 12" drivers in an enclosure very similar to the 231 sub but with the top horn built in. My earlier speakers (that I still have) are pre-Omega Duos from about 2006 and these have the 225SUB bass units - with twin 10" drivers. Before I bought these used Duos last year I'd been using Unos since I bought them new in 2002. They also had 225SUB bass units.

Your Duo Omegas are the direct successors of my 2006 Duos. After your Omega Duos came the Duo Grosso that were effectively the same as yours but with the 12" bass drivers. After this, the XD version with built in DSP (of sorts) and new Class D amp was introduced. So my new Duos are 3 generations later my old Duos and 2 generations later than yours.

I'm not convinced that my new XDs are sounding any better than my old ones, but I'm sure they will eventually after more setting up sessions. I have new vibration-absorbing feet on order - these will reduce the height by 6 cm or so, so hopefully I'll not need to tilt them forward. I'll be using a calibrated mic and software to see the frequency response at my listening position and I'm hoping this will help me tune the speakers to their best sound. Some way to go yet! Peter

RE: Avantgarde Duo Primo XD, posted on September 25, 2020 at 16:36:59

Leefy
Audiophile

Posts: 97
Location: British Columbia
Joined: April 19, 2003

Thanks Peter. Its fun to follow their evolution and I'm sure your new XDs will be just as satisfying as all their other stuff. Its always a bit of effort to get the set up dialed in at first but that's part of the fun of discovery.

I tried some anti vibration footers on mine. They were the Isoacoustics Gaia I and had really gotten good press so thought worth a try. They made a surprising change to the sound (much more than I had expected) and did deliver on the promise of greater clarity etc but in the end I thought they diminished the rounder more fluid presentation that I liked so much and found more natural so I didn't keep them. Keep us posted on how you make out with your experimentation with vibration devices. I'm always interested!

High Efficiency Speaker Asylum

Which are the most efficient speakers?

51.174.165.53