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Problem with the Sony SCD-777ES on Redbook CD.

192.159.76.19
Posted on November 18, 2000 at 15:36:53
Neville J. Parakh


 
I spent a couple of hours today auditioning 3 CD and 1 SACD
player:

(a) Linn Ikemi (with ML Integrated, MIT cabling and SF speakers)
(b) Arcam FMJ 23 (with ML Integrated, MIT cabling and SF speakers)
(c) BAT VK-D5SE (with BAT VK-60SE, BAT VK-50SE, Cardas Neutral
Ref. cabling and JM Labs Mini-Utopia Speakers)
(d) Sony SCD-777ES (with BAT VK-60SE, BAT VK-50SE, Cardas Neutral
Ref. cabling and JM Labs Mini-Utopia Speakers)

I was hoping that the Sony SCD-777ES would compare favourably on
Redbook CD so that I would be able to get one player for SACD and
CD. The SACD performance on the 777ES was superb. However, on
Redbook CD I found the highs with the 777ES to be too forward
and very fatiguing. The dealer says that the 777ES has been well
burned in (more than 200 hours). Yes, I realize that the Linn
Ikemi and BAT VK-D5SE are more expensive and I didn't expect the
CD performance on the 777ES to match exactly. In general, I thought
that the 777ES did a good job, except for the highs.

I would really appreciate some advise from those of you who are
familiar with the 777ES and some of the other players here.
Do you think that the forward and fatiguing highs are because
the 777ES is not yet completely burned in? Did you notice the
same problem with Redbook CD while it was buring in?

I find it hard to believe that the 777ES would gather such a large
following here if its highs normally sounded like this with
Redbook CD so I'm trying to understand what was wrong. The BAT
player in the same system had silky smooth highs, so I am going to
eliminate the other components in the chain.

Thoughts, suggestions and comments please. I would really like
to get the 777ES - its superb on SACDs (of which I've already
purchased 11 :).

Thanks in advance for all your help.

Neville

 

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Re: Problem with the Sony SCD-777ES on Redbook CD., posted on November 18, 2000 at 16:35:07
Mike Bates


 
Mine has probably over 1000 hours on it and the highs don't seem forward. I now listen mostly to filter 3 mostly To me it is a little sweeter than standard yet standard really still doesn't sound forward. I agree with other comments about break in, the player settles in or your ears do. I do think there is a more refined sound with both CD and SACD now. I don't know why it just happens. The only time it really seemed forward was at the 150-200 hour mark. Strange indeed.

What I don't like about the CD playback (other than SACD and LP's trounce it) is the bass seems a bit thick. I've heard this since I got it, and the player also has a slight case of digititas (non musical distortions in the mids and highs.. "brittle" not forward) that the Bel Canto convertor almost avoids. Overall it is one hell of a $1600.00 player.

I use triodes and DH amps into TAD drivers, with the 100k setting.

SACD's are really fantastic, much lower fatique, The bass is much better than the CD playback. Overall it is real safe to say SACD is better than CD in every way.

Mike


 

SACD vs. CD...rare consensus!, posted on November 18, 2000 at 16:42:32
David W. Robinson


 
Mike Bates sez:

"SACD's are really fantastic, much lower fatique, The bass is much better than the CD playback. Overall it is real safe to say SACD is better than CD in every way."

I'd say that you could just about reach a complete consensus on this one among 'philes who have compared the two.

And such things are *almost* unknown in audio....

;-)

david

 

Re: Problem with the Sony SCD-777ES on Redbook CD., posted on November 18, 2000 at 17:19:23
TBone


 
The 777 - as good as it is - will never match the better CD players that you mentioned in redbook mode, nor should it be expected to at it's cost.

IMO It's also interesting that the cables you used on the 777 and BAT (Cardas) are more musical and less grainy in the high frequency region then the Ikemi and Arcam interconnect (MIT).

TBone

 

Here's an idea, posted on November 18, 2000 at 17:43:25
Adi


 
If you are sold on 777ES'es SACD capabilities, get it and add an outboard DAC later on.

Adi

 

Re: Problem with the Sony SCD-777ES on Redbook CD., posted on November 18, 2000 at 20:03:26
Boris


 
That was exactly with my SCD777 right out of the box and up to 75 hours of contionous playing of redbook CDs, the highs were forward
bright and thin. After 200 hours of CD (not SACD) playing the highs became silky, smooth and the presentation liquid. Try it after you know that it has been burned in in CD (not SACD) mode for longer that 400 hours and I think you will buy it. Better even to try it in your system. I use it almost only on redbook CDs and I think it is a great player.

 

Re: Problem with the Sony SCD-777ES on Redbook CD., posted on November 18, 2000 at 20:20:14
Boris


 
Majority of people who owns SCD777ES and actually play it for some time in their systems do not share this, dare to say ferociously negative opinion of Tbone, probably based on short (some hours, not days) experience with the player. For the burning-in period the player changes its sound several times from acceptable to horrible and then finally to smooth, liquid, refined and absolutely not-fatiguing.
We love SCD777ES.

 

Everyone knows that the Sony name on the front panel kills its performance., posted on November 18, 2000 at 21:54:53
9fold


 
Sony isn't chic, so of course the '777ES is a poor performer, huh TBone? Boris, I agree with you 100%. I love my '777ES. I'm nowhere near 300 hours in either CD or SACD mode, but I am already thoroughly impressed with its performance on both formats. CDs sound great, but SACD is on another level. Hey, TBone, is it possible that you were so blown away by SACD, that CD performance on the '777ES paled in comparison? If so, then don't blame the player, blame redbook CD. Your complaints about CD performance on the '777ES are most likely because of the relative leap in fidelity in going to SACD, your anti-Sony bias, or a combination of the two. Your inane comments make it clear that you cannot be objective in evaluating the '777ES. The minute you invoked the Sony name as a cause for it being a poor performer (over on Digital Drive), your credibility on the subject was lost.

 

Here's a question to ponder...., posted on November 18, 2000 at 23:19:03
Chris Garrett


 
how come so many people are throwing nice DACs (read Dodson/Timbre, etc.) on their Sony SACD players? I plan on experimenting with a nicer DAC on my SCD-1 and it's not because the Sonys are 'world beaters' on Redbook.

People who had nice CDPs prior to buying the Sonys have a different reference point to go by, that some purchasers do not. I mean if you had Brand X crapola CDP prior to buying your 777ES, than yes, the Sony is killer on CDs, however, if you have an EC EMC-1 (or others) a step back on CD might be a reality.

Chris

 

Re: Problem with the Sony SCD-777ES on Redbook CD., posted on November 19, 2000 at 03:06:43
QDB


 
It could be that the system is better optimised for the Linn front end.

I have found the 777ES to be superior as a CD player to my 2 box TEAC, now sold, and also to other more expensive quality CD players. It is pretty much state of the art in CD replay at more than twice its price. I agree with Hi-Fi Choice who raved about the 777ES, described it as a "bargain" (priced at GB Pounds 1,700 ), and said its ability to play SACD's was just the "icing on the cake".

Listening to a Wilson Organ Recital on CD I use as a test is mind blowing on the 777ES, I honestly did not think there was so much low level information I was missing until now.

So give it another chance. try different speakers, cables etc. burn it in. It is worth it.


 

Re: Here's a question to ponder...., posted on November 19, 2000 at 04:58:09
9fold


 
I understand your point. Everything is relative and everyone's tastes vary. Opinions vary. Someone might like a Linn better than the '777ES, but someone else might not. As for external DACs, that's fine if people can spend the money on a good one and truly hear an improvement. As for me, I see know reason to tweak the '777ES as many here do. I use the stock power cord and Monster Interlink 400 RCA cables. I don't use Vibrapods or anything else under it. To me it sounds fantastic. It is fine with me if someone doesn't like CD playback on the '777ES, but it gets tiresome for the same person to interject harsh criticism every time the subject comes up. What's worse is to say that one couldn't expect good playback from Sony and that we'd have to expect a miracle for it to happen. That's the talk of a snob.

 

Re: Here's a question to ponder...., posted on November 19, 2000 at 07:54:19
Les Lammers


 
9fold,

Do try a decent power cord on your unit. It will make a difference.
I got a used Van Evers Pandora ($175) for the 777 and a used Nirvana cord ($200) for the DAC. Love that Audiogon. www.hcmaudio.com has some
MIT cords on sale that may be worth a look. Yes, there are better
redbook cd players, but the 777 is not the pig that T-Bone thinks it is. For $1500 there is not a better transport/SACD unit. It is also
a very good cd player. Sure Sony COULD have made the cd section better, but it is a SACD player and that is what Sony wants us all to
migrate to. With a good DAC the Sony gives a lot of value. I try hard
to not flame products as many are quite system dependent.

I did order 2 sets of Darhuma isolation devices from www.whifi.com
look under accessories. Chris Garrett posted the link earlier and I
will post an opinion when they arrive.

T-Bone your continued Sony bashing serves no useful purpose. Krell has
purchased the transport unit from Sony to use in their forthcoming SACD player. What does that tell you?

I bought a Dodson DAC and with the 777 redbook is 'as good as it is going to get'for me and I get SACD to boot. JMHO.

 

Re: Here's an idea, posted on November 19, 2000 at 07:56:58
Les Lammers


 
Yup,

The Sony is an excellent transport with SACD to boot.

 

Re: Problem with the Sony SCD-777ES on Redbook CD., posted on November 19, 2000 at 08:01:08
Les Lammers


 
It is definitely a component that needs a long time to settle in and for $1500 it is a true bargain in the overpriced high-end world.

 

Try a different speaker..., posted on November 19, 2000 at 08:58:53
Rich


 
with less prominent highs. Your opinion will likely change.

 

I remember Tenniswino saying....., posted on November 19, 2000 at 09:23:12
Chris Garrett


 
somewhere in Digital, that the SCD-1, just to his ears, wasn't a good transport. I believe he had the Wadia 27 series DAC/Transport. I thought that either he's crazy, or he's got better stuff/hearing than I. Having learned a bit more about him/system, I realize it's the latter. If you believe the source of comments to be truthfull, than one shouldn't have trouble realizing that maybe they have a point. When all is said and done, the Sonys are both nice units. If I could never play SACDs, I would keep the EC, as I prefer it's sound (at least right now) to the Sony's on Redbook.

Remember, critical listening is an acquired trait and some of us just don't go as far as others. I'll never know what correct pitch sounds like and I don't really attend live accoustic performances too often. I'm at a disadvantage when judging the realism wrought by various components.

Chris

 

Re: I remember Tenniswino saying....., posted on November 19, 2000 at 10:18:03
Les Lammers


 
Yup,

If it sounds good to you, it is good. In the end, that's all that matters. Sometimes I think we forget that the purpose of this hobby
is the enjoyment of music.

 

Many thanks to all., posted on November 19, 2000 at 12:50:39
Neville J. Parakh


 
Many thanks to all of you for your advise and comments - I really
appreciate it. I suspected that the Redbook CD section had not
been burned in on the 777ES. When the dealer said that the 777ES
had about 200 hours of burn in on it, I'm willing to bet that it
was on the SACD section and not the CD section. I assume that
most people who go into a dealer to audition the 777ES will be
trying it out primarily with SACD.

Boris's comment - "That was exactly with my SCD777 right out
of the box and up to 75 hours of contionous playing of redbook
CDs, the highs were forward bright and thin. After 200 hours of
CD (not SACD) playing the highs became silky, smooth and
the presentation liquid." was exactly what I wanted to hear
(no pun intended :) - thanks Boris.

I'm now convinced that the 777ES is the way to go for me. I will
speak to my local dealer about coming close to the $1500 price
that Oade and J&R are selling it at - I don't mind spending a bit
more for it locally.

Once again, thanks to all - this is a great forum with a passionate
and dedicated group of partipants and its a real pleasure to read
it.

 

Here, here., posted on November 19, 2000 at 15:04:20
9fold


 
That's the point. I am relatively new to the audiophile world. As recently as December 1999, I had a Kenwood rack system from 1989. My first upgrade into home theater last December consisted of a JVC RX-778V DD/DTS receiver for $250. Shortly thereafter, I added a Sony CDP-CE535 carousel changer for $160. Egad! For the money, those components did the job, but I quickly learned. I still have mid-fi equipment by most everyone's standards here (Sony ES, Denon, Pioneer Elite, Harman/Kardon), but I am most certainly enjoying the music. I have listened to a lot of high-end equipment in stores and at friends' houses, but I am still loving my set-up. That's what counts. Peace.

 

Re: Problem with the Sony SCD-777ES on Redbook CD., posted on November 19, 2000 at 15:13:47
9fold


 
Thanks for your suggestions for tweaks to the '777ES. Maybe I will take a look at them in time. I am still burning in the CD and SACD sections in my '777ES, so I'll see how good the CD section gets and decide if I feel the need to improve it further. At this time, I am thrilled with its CD performance. SACD is outstanding.

You mentioned the "overpriced high-end world". You are right in many instances. Has anyone compared the sound of an SACD on the '777ES to a CD (same album, preferably a hybrid disc with the same master used for both layers) on a high-end Krell or Mark Levinson CD player (or any other high-end brand) using the same speakers and amp? One can buy a Krell CD player for $22K, and I'm sure it's amazing. However, with no tweaking or external DACs, how would CD on the Krell or another CD player of its ilk compare to SACD on the '777ES? I imagine SACD would sound phenomenal.

 

Re: Problem with the Sony SCD-777ES on Redbook CD., posted on November 19, 2000 at 17:42:03
Les Lammers


 
After burn in please get a decent power cord. It does not have to be expensive. You will hear the difference and it can be an eye opener.

I got a 'tunable' Vans Evers Pandora for $175 on Audiogon. There is a
new one listed there for $150. Does a fine job and the 'tunable' part
works.

Life is good.

 

Re: Many thanks to all., posted on November 19, 2000 at 20:16:33
Boris


 
If you have a chance try the player (burned-in at for least 300 hours) in your system with various CDs and then you know what to do.
Good luck.

 

Sony SCD777ES SACD vs. Forsell/Altis Red Book, posted on November 19, 2000 at 22:23:56
CharlesHouston


 
The Forsell/Altis combination, playing the Red Book disc, outperformed the Sony SCD777ES playing the SACD version.

This fact, however, is not a knock on the Sony, since we are comparing $1600 to $20,000.


Charles Houston
Fieldstone Farm
Paeonian Springs, Virginia

 

SCD777ES/Dodson vs. ????, posted on November 19, 2000 at 22:25:53
CharlesHouston


 
Les,

What DOdson did you use, and to what CD players did you compare it?
Charles Houston
Fieldstone Farm
Paeonian Springs, Virginia

 

Re: Here's a question to ponder...., posted on November 20, 2000 at 09:32:22
phil


 
Hi Les,

I have ordered those Final Lab feet-we will have to compare notes.

Phil

 

Re: Problem with the Sony SCD-777ES on Redbook CD., posted on November 20, 2000 at 09:39:47
phil


 
Boris,

Have you set your 777es to custom setting on the back? I posted elswhere, but I have had my 777es for 4 months, and just started placing redbook. I had my player on 7/24 for over six weeks, and in the last 3 weeks-wow! My opinion (which may not concur with everyone of course) is based on playing the same cds vs the same material on lp. I had a similar experience with my Magneplanars--it took several months with several different speaker cables to reach their peak.

Phil


 

Re: Everyone knows that the Sony name on the front panel kills its performance., posted on November 20, 2000 at 12:02:35
TBone


 
>>Hey, TBone, is it possible that you were so blown away by SACD, that CD performance on the '777ES paled in comparison?<<

Finally, your making sense. The SACD was very good, not blown away, esp compared to my analog, but musical. When you compare it to the 777 redbook, the comparison is laughable, because the 777 redbook performance is well under what the SACD section is, AND it is well under sonically what MANY CDP are.

Read all the post below that state the same thing. You may worship your 777 player to high heaven, but the fact remains that it's cd performance is nothing special, compared to other better cdp's and itself in SACD mode.

Your taking this way to personally!

TBone

 

Never-Never Land..., posted on November 20, 2000 at 15:22:46
TBone


 
Neville Stated...
>>The BAT player in the same system had silky smooth highs, so I am going to eliminate the other components in the chain.<<

Your Advice...
>>Try a different speaker...with less prominent highs. Your opinion will likely change.<<

WHAT ... did you not read his post .. or in your attempt to continue to try and defend your 3- 777 (LOL) you forgot about the basic facts of audio reproduction, as if new speakers would suddenly make the BAT sound worse then the 777 with respect to the high (both IMO) frequency extension(s).

Only in Rich's never-never land, would that logic exist!

Click Your Heals and come home - Rich.

TBone

 

Hmmm...., posted on November 20, 2000 at 15:44:53
TBone


 
>>I am relatively new to the audiophile world. As recently as December 1999, I had a Kenwood rack system from 1989.<<

Thanks for confiming what I suspected.

You continue to argue on how great the 777 is in redbook mode, and how others and myself(25yrs exp) are so wrong in our review of the 777. Therefore I would like to know exactly, dispite your limited exposure, what your findings are actually base on.

How did you come to such a confirmed conclusion, did you actually compare many other units in a home audition over a period of time, and what other references (please don't say the Kenwoods) did you used in establishing the 777 musical capabilities?

I am glad you have adopted the fine musical reproduction of SACD, but I question (with your limited experience) if you have ever heard any other form of true musical reproduction, which also includes the CD and analog formats.

Just Curious,
TBone



 

Re: Problem with the Sony SCD-777ES on Redbook CD., posted on November 20, 2000 at 17:56:34
Neville J. Parakh


 
>> The 777 - as good as it is - will never match the better CD
>> players that you mentioned in redbook mode, nor should it be
>> expected to at it's cost.

You're absolutely right - I didn't go into the auditions
with any unrealistic expectations that the 777ES would better the
Linn Ikemi or BAT VKD5SE on "Redbook CD". In terms of what I heard,
I, by far, prefered the Linn Ikemi to the Arcam FMJ. The Ikemi had
better depth to the soundstage, was more dynamic, more detailed
and did a much better job at the frequence extremes. The overall
presentation was one of great synergy - nothing stuck out - allowing
me to just enjoy the music. No surprises there considering the
Ikemi is Can.$2000 more (list) than the FMJ. The BAT on the other
hand had a really nice rich midrange with a different presentation
than the Ikemi. Since my system is already on the richer side
(Pass Aleph 5 and Sonic Frontiers Line 1 with Amperex tubes) my
preference for "Redbook CD" was the Ikemi. If you don't mind my
asking, what did you pay for the Ikemi (feel free to e-mail me if
you like). Did you end up using the Linn interconnects and power cord - my dealer felt that Linn components synergized best with
Linn accessories? BTW, the Ikemi was auditioned using its
single ended outputs - the balanced outputs may have taken
it up a notch further.

 

I hear ya..., posted on November 21, 2000 at 10:03:19
TBone


 
Neville,

I reside in canada, so we have that in common. The Ikemi is in a class of players that make CD very musical indeed, esp with the better recorded material and far supreme to the 777 in redbook mode. That class includes players from BAT, ML, SIM, NAIM, Copland, and others very musical players. I cannot claim I have heard the BAT in an extensive audition, but I have auditioned the ML, Sim, Linn(s) and Copland players PLUS the sony 777. The only other player you should audition is the Sim, it has a different presentation then the Ikemi, but I really was really fond of it (very musical). It's strengths are different from the Linns, (more like the NAIMs).

Like you I like the Arcams, but they do not compare with the company of cdp's listed above, nor should they for the $$$. I agree with your sonic findings regarding the arcam and Linn.

I have "tweaked" my heart out with the Ikemi, everything from isolation, powercords, interconnects and feet. Trail and error, but the sound is finally glorous. This unit is very finicky on the above tweaks. I used the balanced outputs but they did not achieve the same sound as the s.e. outputs, however the comparison may not have been fair, since the cardas balanced cables used were only the hexlink 5 models and geortz silver purl. I will be experimenting more with the balanced outputs in the future, after i get my new amp and new cartidges installed.

If you require additional information, please do not hesitate to ask and I will e-mail you.

TBone


 

Re: Hmmm...., posted on November 24, 2000 at 12:24:20
Rich


 
In 25 years you haven't advanced beyond a starter system? LOL.

 

Coward..., posted on November 25, 2000 at 19:37:40
TBone


 
Unlike yours - mines real!

Come-on Rich - come play with the big-boys - stop 'cowardly' hiding in the trenches of LONG buried post with your snide remarks. Start contributing to others - like your prior "hall-of shame" but highly funny "new speaker to fix sacd" post.

Or are you to scared!!!

If you participate - then we all can laugh!
We don't bite, it's only AUDIO Rich!

:^)
TBone

 

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