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Ermm - enlighten me

165.117.17.251

Posted on March 8, 1999 at 03:50:50
Rodney Gold


 
Is this forum an elitist thing by invite only ? I have been reading a few threads here that sort of adopt this tone?

I dont see the need for silence or a sort of "Hush Hush" attitude if we have a responsible moderator. Unless the webmaster is concerned about traffic volumes , I feel this site should be promoted. Those who object to censorship wont post , and if the flamers do descend it is pretty easy to obliterate them.
Elitist groups concern me far more than censorship. I dont post to or even read Soundstage forums because of their elitist "old schoolboy network" attitude.
I see part of the function of these types of forums as a helping hand for newbies , one doesnt want to scare folk away. One thing must be bourne in mind: There currently is NO forum on the net , apart from this one or the old AR TT that is capable of helping others in a cosmopolitan fashion , do we want this forum to be limited ?


 

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Re: Ermm - enlighten me, posted on March 8, 1999 at 04:12:16
Deon C


 
Not elitist. Just that in the nature of the word-by-mouth way that people have been told of this site(me included), the likes of Geeber et al have somehow not been notified of it's presence(I wonder why??? ;-) ). So, not elitist, just a teeny bit selective in the company we keep.
Enjoy the music.
Deon

 

Re: Ermm - enlighten me, posted on March 8, 1999 at 04:38:39
Jack G


 
I agree. I don't think this site is eletist, nor do I wish it to be. Remember Rodney, how AR used to be? Word of mouth should work well. Even with moderators, excess traffic(of the wrong kind) can turn this place into another current AR.
Jack

 

The problem as I see it..., posted on March 8, 1999 at 06:45:22
The problem as I see it...


 
...with a broad appeal approach is that unless the site can achieve some clearly defined focus or segmentation of posts we will inevitably be drawn into the AR death spiral.

I for one am a believer in the subjectivist faith ;-) and find boards crowded with mindless ABX / anti ABX drivel too frustrating to even bother with. Thats why I more or less abandoned AR long before this site came into existence. At present it would appear that the tone and orientation of this board is fundamentally subjectivist (and that is certainly the orientation of its founders). So why openly court that which will only draw this site into antagonisitic battles that are inevitably unproductive? Open listing everywhere will only court this problem unless the site is billed as one where such activities are not accepted. Does that mean we define the site as a haven for subjectivists perhaps? Because whether or not you care -if I come to this board and see string after string of the garbage illicited by folks like Mytrcrafts & Reint & AR I will abandon this site at the drop of a hat.

Second - I think that the experience of mixing entry level audio users with no real high end aspirations with experienced hobbyists or those "on the path" so to speak- is a losing game. Boards filled with: Whats dipolar mean? Should I buy Bose? arent of much interest to me or many of the other folks here either I suspect - or we wouldnt be here in the first place would we? Ther are several other boards that operate at that level, so why just create another one? And what compels experienced listeners or those eager to learn to wade throgh that BS to bother with coming back?

I may be misinterpreting your intent but I guess I'm selfishly looking at this from the perspective of what would motivate me to keep coming here. And that would be to interact with others who share my interests (irregardless of price point) so that we can share ideas, experiences, advice and a common underlying attitude towards the hobby. Selfish? Maybe - but its the only reason I'm going to keep coming back...

Joe

 

Oops! - post above is from me. (nt), posted on March 8, 1999 at 06:47:35
Joe S


 


 

Brilliant!!!!!, posted on March 8, 1999 at 06:51:05
DiabloET


 
What a beautifully thought out and written exposition. I couldn't agree more. That's exactly what I was thinking but I'm incapable of such perfect prose and literary expertise. You really hit the nail square on the head.

 

Well said, posted on March 8, 1999 at 06:56:47
Jack G


 
And I agree.
Jack

 

Re: The problem as I see it..., posted on March 8, 1999 at 07:33:58
MikeP


 
"...boards crowded with mindless ABX / anti ABX drivel..."
I agree with this. It doesn't even come down to a disagreement about testing or audio. Its about repitition by a few. I saw too many interesting threads degenerate, because someone insisted on jumping in with repetitive, "witty" one liners about double blind testing. Everybody already knew their viewpoint about the subject of subjective observations, and knew what they were going to say since they repeat the same message ad nauseum. There simply was no need to hear about my biases for the 100th time.
"Boards filled with: Whats dipolar mean?"
I'm not so sure I agree with this. It wasn't so long ago that I was unclear about the differences between bipolar and dipolar. I really don't mind answering questions from newbies. I'm a newbie compared to some on this board and some are newbies compared to me. At what level of knowledge would you like to draw the line?

 

The Problem is........, posted on March 8, 1999 at 07:51:33
Rodney Gold


 
It still doesnt stop flaming - witness Diablo's eloquent post. Selective moderation perhaps?

If this site is moderated , the moderators can easily stop flame threads while maintaining a healthy flow of responses and queries , basic or advanced.

This site was initially a response to AR's radical format change , emphasis seems to have shifted. I never realised it was "by invite only" and certain queries weren't welcome. I would rather have the free for all and deal with all levels of queries than be a part of some "old boys club".
Thats the way it is for me , if that attitude isn't welcome here , so be it.



 

Re: The Problem is........, posted on March 8, 1999 at 08:31:36
Rod M


 
Well, we'll never stop flaming, but we do have a group of volunteers that do act as moderators and can press the delete key when needed.

You're right about how this started, quite by accident. But I don't see it as 'by invite only' nor do I want to see an 'old boys club'. IMO, we are trying to resolve where we want this to go. We know where we don't want it to go. Site promotion is an issue we need to address and there are differing opinions. This is not a secret place, tell a friend!

We do not need to limit participation to keep traffic down. We have plenty of headroom and if we exceed it, we'll figure out how to deal with that.

I think what many folks don't like to see is questions that reflect no work or thought on the part of the poster. The typical how long is the ball of string question. Maybe we need a Newbie board where these folks will feel comfortable, call it the Just Starting to be Crazy about Audio Asylum ;)

 

Re: The problem as I see it..., posted on March 8, 1999 at 08:51:24
Allan


 
This is part comment, part question. I would agree that too much extremely entry-level activity would bore me and too many mindless pyrotechnic displays are useless - they neither resolve the issues, nor promote further aspirations for sonic excellence - they would only make me look for another site. I have learned to accept criticism from knowledgable individuals not only in the area of audio forums, but in others as well.

(this next paragraph is probably relevant)
I'm a computer programmer and belong to a number of user groups that deal with different operating systems (Unix, Linux, Windows) and you guys haven't seen flaming until you've submitted a post in a windows html format to a Linux board! This is pretty mild stuff compared to the holocaust a mistake like that can be! But the flaming is useful in that it makes one realize that these people are serious about their work and their commitments to their beliefs. If you're going to take advantage of their years of "in the trenches" experience, then it's up to the "flame-ee" to shut up and listen - the newbie has nothing to offer on these (programming) boards, only something to gain and if he can't humble himself and respect the company he's in, then he loses. Quite often, the answers are short and to the point - there's a common response to idiot questions which is a simple acronym - "RTFM" - and it means Read The F---ing Manual! I'm not sure how to apply that on an audio board, but maybe there's a way to gently and firmly tell people looking for Bose info to "LTRFS" (Listen To Real F---ing Speakers). If they take that as an insult and go away, their "aspirations" aren't founded in anything anyway, and anyone who doesn't take the time to "LTRFS" should probably just buy a clock radio. The equivalent to this on a Linux/Unix forum would be to just go get Windoze and point and click your way thru life! Maybe this analogy can be useful...

On the other hand, I consider myself a relative newbie to the true audiophile world (whatever that is). I have been intensely involved in music since grade school - what I mean is that I have an honest appreciation for, and a genuine love for all things musical. Not being a musician, I'm forced to settle for playing music on a stereo system rather than a musical instrument. It has only been within the last 10 years that I have taken hi-quality audio seriously, and my ability to explore that quality is only limited by my financial resources. But my commitment to a perfect musical source is total; consider this - I work out of my house (in my living room to be exact) and I have exactly three items in that living room - my PC's (two of them), my stereo system, and a chair. When I have company, my friends know that they need to "BYOC" (bring your own chair!) because I have prioritized the room for sound (I'm single, so the wife can't bitch at me). I live and work in the sweet spot - lucky me! I don't care about the looks I get when people see poly-filled comforters nicely tacked to all reflecting surfaces (doors, cabinets, etc - yeah you can laugh too), double layered acoustic panel in the windows where "normal" people have curtains or shutters, and they really wonder why they have to step over monster cable when the come in the door! As rediculous as this may sound, these things have enormously enhanced my listening experience and though admittedly the room-tuning is based more on budget than science, it's offered my a chance to "RTFM", in a way that has taught me much about the importance of things like room treatments. The same goes with the dozens of different speakers I've had in here, the half-dozen different amps, pre-amps, cdps, sub-woofers, and now a new turntable. No, I don't have a $25,000 solid gold tube amp, I don't own the "ultimate" speakers, my sub-woofer is not on the audiophile wish-list, and my amp is solid, but not exceptional. My newly purchased pre-amp, IMHO, is exceptional. My 1100+ collection of CD's is still growing by the week, vinyl is alrteady stacking up, and I am spending way too much time writing this! But it's because the audio-aspirations that I have are important to me. Important enough to maximize the listening environment and components that I do have within the budget that I'm confined to. (three daughters in college creates limits - believe me).

So does that make me an audiophile? Do I have the right to express an opinion? Should I burden the real pros with poly-filled comforter tweaks? No, I won't even try. But it's because of my experience with other learning curves, other forums, and a healthy respect for those who really have the opportunity to listen and evaluate gear that I can only dream about. I have noble intentions of someday owning the "best" of everything, in a "perfect" listening room, with all the "correct" placement. Until then, I hope that I can gain from what I read here, I hope that my questions to the forum will be well thought out first (RTFM), and I hope that there will be a recognition by all that elitist attitudes are both to be expected (that's for the newbies) and that audiophile-wanna-be's like myself can indeed have honest, sincere questions that, when answered by the gurus, are greatly appreciated.

So my advice to all, if I have a right to give it, is for the newbies to listen more and ask questions after they RTFM or LTRFS or whatever. The gurus need to confer amongst themselves so they don't get bored - that's cool - and if a less than guru type asks a question - well, it's up to you guys to answer or not, but try to keep in mind, that many of us really do have honest and sincere "aspirations". But hey, I wouldn't even answer a question about Bose

Thanks for your time

 

The Padded Cell, posted on March 8, 1999 at 08:54:24
Stephen


 
Reception Area ... where things are not as hard as in the real Asylum?

 

Why we need newbies ..., posted on March 8, 1999 at 09:46:19
nataraj


 
I've noticed that most of the audio discussion takes place because of a question by newbies (not the bose kind, though ). You need them to start a thread ... as you can see not many thread are started by experienced people (in AR).

I think AR was okay, except, for the flames. So if all we need is a forum similar to AR but without flames and where people can post without the fear of being flamed / rediculed.

 

We need a volunteer or 2 or 3 ..., posted on March 8, 1999 at 10:32:19
Rod M


 
I agree. But we also need a way to help newbies help themselves and educate them without wasting bandwidth.

An FAQ on how to post, how to benefit most from advice, what to do first, what info to include in a post etc., would be a great place to start. We can add this to the FAQ page and point folks here when they ask questions with no good answer and so forth.

Anyone want to raise their hand? Or we can create a team to work together on it. I can put it into html format.

 

Newbie board - good idea, posted on March 8, 1999 at 10:49:06
Allan


 
A newbie board would be an excellent idea I think. Maybe a "rules and regs" doc for determining exactly what is a newbie post???

 

Re: The problem as I see it..., posted on March 8, 1999 at 10:50:33
nataraj


 
>If you're going to take advantage of their years of "in the trenches" >experience, then it's up to the "flame-ee" to shut up and listen - the >newbie has nothing to offer on these (programming) boards, only something >to gain and if he can't humble himself and respect the company he's in, >then he loses

While for a newbie this is a good strategy to adopt, its not a good policy to run a bbs on.

Talking about being humble, there is not reason for anyone to be otherwise. Afterall , "only the knowledgeable knows who little he knows". Just look at the way John Curl posts.

If someone finds a question too silly or basic, he can always ignore it.

 

Sorry for the last post Rod, posted on March 8, 1999 at 10:54:44
Allan


 
..I should have read your next post. dang newby anyway!

 

Rodney Gold?!, posted on March 8, 1999 at 11:07:42
Bryan F.


 
~~~I think that others, myself included are afraid of not only flamers but of this sitet going down hill at some point. As Audio Review while productive at times was going down hill. I am not for censorship but do hope that people will keep this boards quality up. As it is fine at this point. Just my 2 cents!

 

Re: The problem as I see it..., posted on March 8, 1999 at 11:15:09
Allan


 
I agree with you on humility - it has its own intrinsic value. the OS boards I mentioned might not be a good example because the topics and the information being traded is different. I was trying to make the point that a newby (I count myself as one) can learn by absorption, and if a rancid reply (I'm not justifying that type of reply either) turns him off, then he'll lose in the end. At the same time, if he accepts the "criticism" and presses forward with more intelligent and sensitive questions,(whether the flame came from an ego-maniacal jerk or not), he'll be able gain insights that he may not get any other way. Please understand, I'm on the side of the newby - I know from experience how intimidating it can be. And you're right that a question can simply be ignored - that would be my personal preference on how to deal with it unless a dedicated "Newby Board" were created. That would be the best of both worlds. (see the posts below)

Thanks

 

Rodney - re: exclusion and elitism vs anarchy, posted on March 8, 1999 at 11:17:10
Dave VH


 
I know that you are aware that I've posted prominently about my feelings concerning the broadcasting of the existence of our new forum on AR/TT, because it might draw large numbers of the folks we came here to escape from. I do not want to appear to be an elitist, but any exclusionary practices, including moderators deleting posts, can cause those excluded to scream "ELITIST." It's a fact of life.

I am very pleased with the steady arrival of new faces (Handles??) and feel that this place is growing at a nice steady clip. I also communicated with Stephen and Rod about promoting the site, and have volunteered to go the the dozens of other good audio sites I have visited and seeing if we can establish mutual links with some of these sites.

I really do want to promote this site, but I felt that a bit of insulation from AR/TT is appropriate. And I do agree that newbies should be welcomed if they are here to learn about and discuss good audio and music systems.

However, consider this: If you are planning to have a big party in your neighborhood park with free beer or wine for all of your neighbors, whether you know them or not, would you post notices on utility poles in the toughest part of town, inviting everybody? Probably not.

Dave VH

 

Re: We need a volunteer or 2 or 3 ..., posted on March 8, 1999 at 11:26:14
nataraj


 
Unfortunately this I feel should be done by more experienced ( in both audio and English ) folk than I.

 

I nominate Nigel:-), posted on March 8, 1999 at 11:59:11
Jack G


 
BWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Jack

 

Re: The problem as I see it..., posted on March 8, 1999 at 12:05:28
Oakroot


 
Good comments. One other thing not mentioned is the constant monitoring and control of flame threads like all the anti-AP crap back on AR. One may agree or disagree with an opinion but to have an ongoing flame war for month after month is a bit tedious.

We all like to zap someone with a flame now and then - though ours tend to be on the good natured side more often than not - but some of the attacks on AR were obscene and personal that cross the line of what is acceptable.

We do have one issue to resolve here - eventually the newbies with their should I buy Bose or Cerwin Vega questions will arrive. The issue will be how do we wish to handle these posts and posters.

 

Nice paradox, posted on March 8, 1999 at 13:57:42
Edp


 
Or at least paraproblems.

Want open or want quality hobby discussions.

I see that you, Nigel and Groucho don't want to belong to a club that would have someone like you as a member.

But did you really want a group of Ford diehards in your garage telling you every hour what a waste it was to spend time/money on your Bow Tie big blocks!

I want to keep the discussion at a high level, and not get a bunch of cyclic debates. It is not possible to get either side to stop cycling, so have a very binary solution, make a club of likeish minds.

Still I have very strong opinions on elitism, as people may have deduced from some of my frontal attacks.

I can not seem to offer any "fair" solutions, only designs for an environment that I would like to inhabit.

 

Re: The problem as I see it..., posted on March 8, 1999 at 14:03:02
nataraj


 
One of the best ways to handle such posts (bose vs cerwin-viga) is to redirect to a newbie FAQ like www.goodsound.com. Or just ignore the post.

 

Re: The problem as I see it..., posted on March 8, 1999 at 14:07:29
Stephen


 
Have you seen the FAQ, above?

 

Re: The Problem is........, posted on March 8, 1999 at 14:26:57
JohnE


 
Rod, Insanity doesn't run through this site, it gallops.
When I posted a question here this morning, I thought that it would be great to have a board for newcomers (like myself) to audio. It would make an already comfortable site, even more so.
A question though...When I feel I'm ready to graduate to the big boys board, will I have to take a test, and if passed, will I need a cap and gown?

Nurse, Would you please increase my dosage?

John

 

Re: The Problem is........, posted on March 8, 1999 at 15:07:20
Stephen


 
Were you aware that the test involves
electro-convulsive and group therapeutic
elements?

 

Re: I nominate Nigel:-), posted on March 8, 1999 at 15:13:28
Jim Kain


 
That's no nomination--that's a sentence.

But I'm not sure who the victim is.
;~)

 

Thought provoking thread!, posted on March 8, 1999 at 15:23:07
Jim Kain


 
Rodney poses good questions: and the responses seem quite... erm... responsible. It seems that a forum needs people to generate topics and questions so all the experts don't sit around all day twidling their preamp knobs waiting for someone to ask something they can respond to. And the beginners need someone with good advice to help them learn about this arcane and expensive hobby without getting sneered at by elitist salesmen.

So to me an open forum is a good idea, but a civilized one is even better. And since the rules of behavior have been posted (an excellent idea, well stated); I would have no trouble if the monitors were to execute their prerogative swiftly to maintain the rules.

Once abusers of this site learn that no nonsense will be tolerated, they will either behave or leave.

Good work Rod M and volunteers. Let's welcome all newcomers, but point them to the rules.

BTW... I think as "Audio Beginners" page would be a great idea. Those who would go there know exactly why they are they and what they can expect (a Nigel free environment?).

Once again, thanks Rod.

Jim

 

New blood, posted on March 8, 1999 at 16:15:34
DaveG


 
New blood is an absolute necessity for any forum to survive. How long do we think that the same people expressing the same opinions will remain interesting ( did I see a complaint already about incessant aBX testing ? )

Unless we want to contract the web equivalent of hemophelia, we better make sure we keep marying outside the family.

 

It's a hard problem, posted on March 8, 1999 at 17:20:53
jj


 
Keeping a civil nature is hard in such endeavors as this. It is possible for anyone to gain access, and if determined, at least temporarily get ahead of any moderation that is imposed.

This is why I think a registration-type board isn't such a bad idea, but it may be the devil to implement. I think the current method is working, so let's see if that can continue for how.

A good example of baiting is the two or three slams against 'ABX' testing, or testing in general that have already appeared in this forum, despite the fact that nobody has asked anyone, yet, here, to use such a method. Is is the people who run those test who factually advance the industry. While I'm not going to insist (how absurd it would be) that anyone use a DBT method to select equipment (I care about how mine looks, so I dare say so does most everyone else), there is no presently replacement for careful DBT for testing for small audible differences.

It wasn't necessary for those who we all know are adamantly opposed to the science of testing to even bring up the subject, but bring it up, without any provocation or reason, they did, and in a negative light.

Hence, due to this unnecessary act of hostility and forthright insult, the subject now arises. I feel some need to simply reply to the provocation, although I trust much more politely than those who appear above (or is it below) who dismiss the subject as "garbage".

I'm sorry to see that, really, though I don't expect many people to change their own opinion until that day when they really REALLY thought that processor they've been tuning for a half-hour was punched in, when it wasn't. That personal experience will get 'cha every time.

 

Sorry, I erred, posted on March 8, 1999 at 17:24:11
jj


 
The term used was "drivel", not "garbage".

In either case, the use of such a pejoritive term can't lead to any positive outcome.


 

Please reread my post...., posted on March 8, 1999 at 17:53:47
Joe S


 
I said "ABX / anti ABX drivel" referring to the inevitably circular, unproductive, time and energy wasting debates that result in no conclusion and result in distraction from productive discussion.

Joe

 

Hmm, wasnt' clear, sorry, posted on March 8, 1999 at 17:59:33
jj


 
It looked to me like you thought "ABX" was drivel. Perhaps you didn't mean that, in which case I apologize. I agree 100% that flames are useless, although I'm not sure "drivel" is the right term for them ;_)

On the other hand, if you look down below, you'll see that the anti-jj personal attacks have indeed started, and have gone as far as calling me an outright PROFESSIONAL liar, let alone a a liar to this board.

Then again, that's not YOUR fault.

 

Re: The problem as I see it..., posted on March 8, 1999 at 18:05:05
nataraj


 
Great. I think that should do. Can we put a notice in the home page which says 'If you are new to audio -- click here' and takes them to the FAQ page ?

 

Re: I second the nomination for Nigel a newbie - nt, posted on March 8, 1999 at 19:14:35
Oakroot


 
nt

 

Bravo !, posted on March 8, 1999 at 19:25:30
Todd A.


 
And eloquent to boot!

Todd

 

Re: The problem as I see it..., posted on March 8, 1999 at 21:05:24
mtrycrafts


 
>>>string after string of the garbage illicited by folks like Mytrcrafts &
Reint <<<< Very interesting but don't think for a minute that this also applies to your posts as well.

 

Re: Rodney - re: exclusion and elitism vs anarchy, posted on March 9, 1999 at 04:06:30
Satyr


 
Exclusion and elitism are not joined by a logical AND : you can disagree with "exclusion" based on emotive or subjective reaspons but agree with elitism based on achievment ie the award of different classes of degree, the Olympics, the World Cup etc. In the context we are talking about here it is more of trying to make sure that the members of a club meet certain behavioural criteria - not race, sex etc. therefore it seems fair enough.

 

Re: I agree., posted on March 9, 1999 at 04:27:10
Jim Willis


 
I think he meant "elicited" not "illicited," although it is an interesting play on words.

Indeed, many of us make posts that seem to degenerate into in infantile heap at the end. It's not ONLY you and Reint. But some have this effect more often than others.

 

Excellent choice! (nt) :-), posted on March 9, 1999 at 04:32:30
Hyperion


 
.

 

Forum should focus on experience not theory., posted on March 13, 1999 at 18:46:54
Monty


 
Whether it's the experience of the newbie or the "expert", experience should be the focus.

What experience led you to believe that all interconnects sound the same?

What experience led you to believe that tube preamps sound better?

These are the kinds of questions our posters should be answering and asking.

 

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