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Twenty one different models?

69.130.185.159
Posted on May 20, 2020 at 07:14:15
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13973
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 A large audio cable manufacturer lists 21 - yes, 21 - different speaker
cables in its current price book. Twenty one! This does not include
biwire versions of a particular cable. Twenty one! How is an informed
consumer supposed to choose amongst these? Well, price is one metric, of
course. There's several different flavors of actual wire, different
insulations, different twist patterns, different overall wire gauges,
solid and stranded wire, and other variables I've missed. Not to mention
terminations ...

Another manufacturer has only 4 different speaker cables: basic copper,
doubled basic copper, a gold/silver alloy, and a doubled gold/silver
alloy. That's it. Choose your metallurgy and your wire gauge and you're
good.

So how does one choose? Well, one can "borrow" cables from The Cable
Company and compare. Don't like cable A? Send it back, try Cable B.
You like Cable B, but want to try Cables C, D, and E? Good luck. Try
one, send it back, try another, and hope that your "audio memory" is
good enough? Good luck with that.

And besides which, wire that sounds good in one rig may not sound good
in another, so there you are on the merry-go-round again!

I suppose if you have unlimited funds, you can play this game. I don't
so I can't.

You don't think the manufacturers are purposefully trying to keep us
buying and buying and buying whilst searching for audio nirvana, do
you? I just can't imagine such a thing ...

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

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    ...
You must have a real challenge purchasing loudspeakers. nt, posted on May 20, 2020 at 08:01:02
viridian
 Nt

 

RE: My quinquennial cable offering, posted on May 20, 2020 at 08:18:46
B. Scarpia
 I'm not an unbeliever. They all sound different, depending on synergy, material, geometry, wrapper, etc. There comes a time, however, when best must yield to "necessary and sufficient" to convey the analog of a live performance.

In that vein I relate my experience with an unscientific comparison for a magazine of what were among the top six brands 15 years ago at $1500 to $3000 for 6 foot speaker cables. Monster, MIT, Synergistic, etc.

None sounded "better" than the White Lightning cables I found shortly after that review and use until today.

The Woods Extension Cord is no longer available but I recently tracked it down to Allied Wire and Cable.

Most any 16 ga. 3 wire will do, frankly. I reiterate that I do believe in cables but not nearly as much as my faith in playing a well-recorded album of great music alongside sitting among 90 other musicians making music.

 

RE: Oh, that's gonna leave a mark! *, posted on May 20, 2020 at 08:21:43
B. Scarpia

 

Audiophile Infancy: Spring clips and zip cord . . . , posted on May 20, 2020 at 08:46:37
Billy Wonka
Audiophile

Posts: 3760
Joined: April 25, 2013
Contributor
  Since: October 15, 2013
 Those were the days my friend, I thought they would never end. Then everybody grew up and pocketbooks got bigger and, as they say, it was never the same again.

 

Actually not, posted on May 20, 2020 at 09:07:06
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13973
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 I've heard no box speaker, save one, that was worth buying, when
compared to planars, which are infinitely superior.

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

Choose a price range, pick a cable in it, give it a try..., posted on May 20, 2020 at 10:00:54
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31871
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 repeat as necessary.

ONLY buy what you are comfortable buying.

BUY USED if you can, if/when you sell the cable, you loose very little money.

Manufacturer's want to offer a wide range of cables, that's their business.

How is an informed consumer supposed to choose amongst these?

I'd start by reading posts here on AA, maybe branch out from there.

How many price points/styles does BMW have when you can only afford
a Toyota, that ALSO has many price points/styles?

Which widget you like best, which one works best for you?

This is a hobby, people can/will/and do figure these things out.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: Choose a price range, pick a cable in it, give it a try..., posted on May 20, 2020 at 10:23:11
old guy 42
Audiophile

Posts: 387
Location: Eastern Pa
Joined: August 12, 2012
Contributor
  Since: August 26, 2012
 Super, way to go post Mr. Musetap!!!!

Best advice I've read in a looooong time!!!!!!!!

 

Lowe's has three..., posted on May 20, 2020 at 10:23:43
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 32529
Joined: July 14, 2017
 18 gauge, 16 gauge, 14 gauge. Easy.



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

I've bought every speaker cable, posted on May 20, 2020 at 10:28:41
Byrd69
Audiophile

Posts: 2881
Location: East Syracuse, New York
Joined: August 23, 2004
 I've bought every speaker cable that was offered to me. I just had to hear them all.

Here's a photo of the cables all installed at once so I could do A/B A-Z comparisons.

I'm still trying to design some good cable lifters. Any suggestions?











Your interest may vary but the results will be same. (Byrd 2020)

I can't compete with the dead. (Buck W. 2010)

Cowards can't be heroes. (Byrd 2017)

Why don't catfish have kittens? (Moe Howard 1937)

 

RE: I've bought every speaker cable, posted on May 20, 2020 at 10:35:24
Sondek
Audiophile

Posts: 9621
Location: Fort Worth
Joined: May 17, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 You're not fooling me.

I happen to know for a fact that is a photo of one of the wiring looms used on the Vacuum Tube Super Computer. See for yourself.

 

Put all those cables in your antic, posted on May 20, 2020 at 10:35:36
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15166
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 that will lift them plenty.

 

Thank you for that, it is overwhelming..., posted on May 20, 2020 at 10:41:15
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31871
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 So much so that I must now go and nap.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

Nice try but no cigar, posted on May 20, 2020 at 10:43:53
Byrd69
Audiophile

Posts: 2881
Location: East Syracuse, New York
Joined: August 23, 2004
Step aside.




Your interest may vary but the results will be same. (Byrd 2020)

I can't compete with the dead. (Buck W. 2010)

Cowards can't be heroes. (Byrd 2017)

Why don't catfish have kittens? (Moe Howard 1937)

 

in general, posted on May 20, 2020 at 10:51:01
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 10423
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
 I have found over many years of this the following

speakers bright at the extreme top end (tizzy fizzly) - stranded with relatively large size strands, around 16g total

my Quads like the tiny stranded conductors for the extra tippy top

not huge gobsmacking differences, but noticeable

need the best of the best? good luck on your chase



 

Belden lists forty-six speaker cables!, posted on May 20, 2020 at 11:03:55
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37580
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Maybe they're like op amp manufacturers. TI sells sixty-five different models.

Keep introducing new models and continue to sell those developed decades ago. :)

 

Compare to other product categories, posted on May 20, 2020 at 11:37:42
Brian H P
Audiophile

Posts: 1290
Location: Oregon
Joined: December 18, 2012
 At least from larger companies. How many speaker models are offered by B&W, Focal, Wharfedale, PSB, Paradigm, Spendor, or any other company of that caliber you can name. How many models of amplifier are offered by Macintosh, or Luxman, or Marantz?

It's all about market coverage, and having products available in a wide range of prices for a wide range of consumers.

 

Not really., posted on May 20, 2020 at 11:54:26
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12435
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002
 Speakers actually do sound different from one another. ;-)

 

Now Kal....., posted on May 20, 2020 at 12:20:13
viridian
 ...very funny. But to the OPs point, you can't try every speaker in your room...unless, of course, you are a Stereophile reviewer. ;^)

But the OP also posits that he whittles his speaker choice down based on the design, preferring planar speakers. Of course he could make the same choices with cables based on shielded vs. unshelded, solid core vs. stranded, copper vs. silver, etc.

He actually had to have practical experience to come to the conclusion that planars were for him, but he apparently does not have that practical experience with cables. It's there if he wants to engage with it.

 

Challenge, posted on May 20, 2020 at 14:13:34
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
Go buy some decent gauge cables from Home Depot or Lowes. Then buy a pair of audiophile speaker cables that cost at least 10x the price. Come back and tell us how much better the 10x priced cables sound, or not.

P.S.

I have some popular Kimber audiophile speaker cable that are at least 10x the cost of hardware store cable. The hardware store cable sounds better. Yes, really. Cables can sound different but the more costly ones do not necessarily sound better.


 

RE: Now Kal....., posted on May 20, 2020 at 14:14:13
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12435
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002
 I am not questioning his strategy as it applies to speakers. I am questioning the point of applying to cables.

 

RE: Now Kal....., posted on May 20, 2020 at 15:16:23
JURB
Audiophile

Posts: 2056
Location: North Ohio
Joined: May 29, 2016
 I got some advice for y'all who put your stock in expensive cables.

Go down to your local DIY (now called Lowes or Home Depot or whatever) and get some 12-2 Romex. Solid copper. Can carry 30 about amps. Has a resistance of 0.159 ohms per 100'. That means if your damping factor is near infinity like 500 or more that wire, at a hundred feet leaves you a damping factor of 25. There are no strands to worry about how they are wound and skin effects, inductance and all that shit, it is over with solid copper.

There might be a small problem connecting it to some speakers or amps, the sprig type connectors won't like it and some of the binding posts will not take it through the hole. and if you are nuts about cables it must go through the hole, wrapping it around is not acceptable at all.

All you need it to solder some other wire to the end. A very short piece, just enough to make the connection tight.

Now try that and report. I know things, and I really think that with the Romex you are going to hear about the clearest sound out of it. These are laws of physics here. If someone tries it I really want their opinion because my ears are not up to this subtle stuff.

I have heard the difference though. At work the boss wanted to demostrate it. He got a packege of regular speaker wirre, maybe 25'. I hd a nice bench setup and could interrupt the speaker wires ad just aout anytihng else. I scrapped an old receiver and had it all on its back panel, phone, monitor and all the, Aa was the speakers and B was the test amp. I had little jumpers for working on stuff at line level, cassettes, CDs and whatever. So we put this wire, the whole length of it on onne channel and I was taken aback by the difference in sound. It was softer in quality but lacked the edge. The low bass suffered, and the rest of it was just not as good, period. So I am not a naysayer, I am just saying to use science on things like this.

And you know Romex is not that cheap either, and if you buy a 250' roll it is so much, if you buy a 50' roll it is like half, for one fifth of the wire. And if you need a long run, say to outside or the garage, 12-3 is even more ridiculously expensive - for what it is. But you can do both channels as long as they share a common ground. Thought that is not cheap, if you want those esoteric cables in really long lengths even the filthy rich around here might have to mortgage something.

 

By customer demand, posted on May 20, 2020 at 15:23:53
Dave_K
 It costs their customers money every time they discontinue a part. Even if it's a like-for-like replacement, their customers will have to update engineering drawings, parts lists, and BOMs.

I am in engineering and avoid suppliers who can't guarantee a product will remain in production long enough to support our expected product life and planned refresh cycle.

In some cases, we end up paying through the nose to keep an old part in production because it's cheaper than redesigning a product around a new one.

It's not just HW, this goes for SW as well.

 

Just buy the Cable Cookbook, posted on May 20, 2020 at 16:55:22
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12587
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 and you can make much better cables for tons less. One of the best buys I ever made in audio.

Take my magnetwire challenge. If your wire runs are 8ft or less go to rat shack and buy their magnetwire package. It has 3 spools. 22g, 24g and 30g.

Wire the speakers up with the 24g using sand paper or a lighter to remove the coating. And be amazed. Then figure out a way to dress it all up.

And before you wig out about gauge, ask yourself what gauge wire is inside the speaker? What gauge are the leads on the caps and the voice coils?

Just try it with an open mind. And do note its super CLEAN and will take you a while to adjust. Pretend you grew up drinking muddy water your whole life, and someone gave you pure water. You would think a lot is missing but in reality its the bad stuff you don't want to drink anyhow.

If there is no rat shack buy some 24g or 24g magnetwire from amazon and enjoy.

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

Romex is a pain to use............................, posted on May 20, 2020 at 17:11:08
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12435
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002
 but I agree that commercial sources, including Belden, Canare and Mogami, should be considered.

 

"How to choose", posted on May 21, 2020 at 04:56:45
RhythmDevil
Audiophile

Posts: 225
Joined: November 23, 2014
 How do you choose any other component for your system?

Personally, for wires, I start with a budget that makes sense to me; my rule of thumb is to budget up to 10% of my system budget on wires. Any more than that and I start thinking the money is better spent on other system components. As many people note below, the variability of the impact of wires is far less than other components.

Then I listen.

I listen to people with more experience — reviewers, trusted sales associates, and, in this case, the speaker manufacturer. I pay special attention to the manufacturer; they voiced their speakers with *something*.

Then I listen, just like any other component.

Then I consider other issues. Are they well constructed, with good terminations and connectors that are going to stand the test of time? How easy are they to use, eg how flexible are they, how easy to attach/detach? And, in all seriousness, how do they look? I mean, interconnects are hidden away behind the equipment, but speaker wires become "part of the decor" and for me that requires spousal approval.

That's just me. But I will note that some of those who say that there is no difference between the "Home Depot" special and speaker cables costing 10X are not walking the walk. Their systems use things like Analysis Plus Oval9 and Kubala-Sosna; they have some reason why they spent more.

Props to the DIY crowd — if you have the skills, the return on investment here is huge.





Cerebrate!

 

RE: Twenty one different models?, posted on May 21, 2020 at 05:13:31
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 8383
Joined: June 3, 2006
 People with unlimited funds may buy all of them and have a great time comparing one by one. At least 325 combinations the rich guy can try. Then compare with the present cables. I will try during the next lockout which I hope is as remotely possible as my having unlimited funds.

That reminds me of the old Pet Rock. The marketing guys goofed. They could have come up with 21 different rocks, in shape and colors. BTW, somebody stole my Pet Rock.

Bill

 

Cable gripes, posted on May 21, 2020 at 09:59:38
Craiger56
Audiophile

Posts: 5571
Location: San Jose CA
Joined: April 3, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 29, 2003
 When a computer generated graphic is used to depict a cable's construction because showing the real thing would be much less impressive.

Charging a lot more for a braided cable that has twelve conductors instead of eight.

Continuing to market cables after having been caught removing Made in China stickers.

 

any models use aged wire? nt, posted on May 21, 2020 at 19:47:44
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 .


 

"BTW, somebody stole my Pet Rock.", posted on May 21, 2020 at 23:00:40
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31871
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 Be glad to sell you another.

Vintage ones cost a bit more.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

Yes! - "How to choose", posted on May 22, 2020 at 01:19:05
Chris from Lafayette
Audiophile

Posts: 26430
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012
 My main determinants are, "Is the cable made by government control in Russia?" and "Does the copper come from the Ural Mountains?". If yes to both questions, then I buy with confidence! After all, Putin wouldn't sell me short, would he?



Check out my system if you don't believe me! ;-)

 

RE: $12K speaker cables for less than $200.00, posted on May 22, 2020 at 05:05:25
House13
Audiophile

Posts: 337
Location: SE TN
Joined: February 17, 2008
 You want to make your own, see the link. You can budget the cash remaining for speakers.

 

RE: "BTW, somebody stole my Pet Rock.", posted on May 22, 2020 at 07:24:57
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 8383
Joined: June 3, 2006
 Thanks Muse. I had another one which I destroyed after reading the book How To Destroy Your Pet Rock.

Cheers
Bill

 

If I had $10K lying around, posted on May 22, 2020 at 08:47:57
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15166
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 I would buy better loudspeakers, not cables.

However, a $1K cable would not be out of place in such a system. But, how to choose?

One speaker distributor wants to sell you ultra thin cables and another distributor wants to sell you garden hoses.

I would get whatever I had room for, but I would want to get a good dose of unbiased opinions first. But, where do you get that?

 

different models?, posted on May 22, 2020 at 12:57:02
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15387
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 i can't for the life of me understand why people always go to the extreme when discussing wires. you can buy a watch for less than ten bucks. OR...
the sky is the limit. cars, boats, ad infinitum.

we may start with the freebies and lamp wire. baby steps people! of course the ten gauge speaker wire sounds more authoritative, at first. then some well made interconnects that are affordable. then a pair of low end AQ speaker wires. improvements will have happened.

can those things be explained by measurements? probably not. sure, you don't want resistance or capacitance to impose their deleterious effects and that is why reputable manufacturers are to be sought. esoteric, not so much. all things in due time.

once you've purchased the Constellation electronics, Magico loudspeakers, Meitner disc player, and SME tt, you tend not to look at Blue Jeans Cables.

had you purchased arc electronics, Esoteric disc player, Vandersteen speakers, and a VPI tt, you would be looking at completely different wire.

let us all be reasonable about these things. you will hear all variables of performance with wire choices, it's a hobby. enjoy.
...regards...tr

 

What do you mean us?, posted on May 22, 2020 at 13:13:47
Goober58
Audiophile

Posts: 5576
Joined: November 15, 2016
 I started with a Kimber 8 PR back in the early 80s, moved to 8 TC then a double strand of it. I did play around with some more affordable stuff in the early 2000s, thick stranded pure cooper wire from Radio Shack and some 47 labs very thin silver wires. Superior sound quality of the Kimber wasn't it's only advantage. The professional terminations, greater aesthetic appeal and branding were other reasons I would spend more for it. Hasn't been a merry go round for me.

 

"Audio" nirvana? Or musical nirvana?, posted on May 23, 2020 at 02:33:53
willkayakforfood
Audiophile

Posts: 1010
Joined: November 30, 2010
Contributor
  Since: December 24, 2011
 Being a lifelong acoustic musician, I have the advantage of having the ultimate "reference equipment" just as far away as my fingertips. :)

I don't listen to "audio equipment". I listen to music.

Consider the music you enjoy. The music you "feel closest to". Consider it in its "natural habitat", then listen to your stereo.

One thing I know, especially when it comes to acoustic music that is traditionally performed in acoustic spaces -- no "audio equipment"--from recording to reproduction--will ever completely, or "perfectly" capture and reproduce it. Whether you spend $5,000, $20,000, $300,000, or a million or more, it's always better played live in a concert hall.

Some of the most excruciating "reproduction" I've heard has come from some of the most expensive "audio equipment" I've encountered. Yet I've seen people around me in the same room simply swoon over the painfully etched, photoshopped "sound". Even more so when they know how expensive the equipment is, and how "pretty" it looks.

All that said, I too believe in spending some time and effort into putting together nicely balanced, "good sounding" stereos, but I shudder at the thought of the Hell of a lifetime of chasing my tail in pursuit of "audio nirvana", when I already enjoy "musical nirvana".

Real art happens when an author knows that one more word would turn a great novel into endless babble. When a painter knows it's time to put down the brush, because one more stroke would turn a masterpiece into just another mess.

Pursue the spirit of music, and when it touches you, sit back and wallow in the sublime.

 

Anti-cables, Blue Jeans, OFC, posted on May 23, 2020 at 07:03:48
Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1884
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
  Since: December 14, 2012
 Any OFC copper of sufficient gauge should be fine. I've had good results with Blue Jeans, Paul Speltz's Anti-Cables, and Monster Powerline II, which was perhaps the only good thing they ever produced.

I like keeping my bi-wire pairs separated by an inch or more for most of the run (a la Richard Vandersteen's paper) and the stiffness of the anti-cables makes that easy.

If a manufacturer makes it hard to choose, find another manufacturer.

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

RE: Twenty one different models?, posted on May 23, 2020 at 09:11:42
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 Don't let this drive you crazy..... The best thing you can do is educate yourself, in regard to what is important (and what is not important) in a speaker cable.....

If the science behind wire is overwhelming to you, don't be afraid to ask questions about audio cable. The only thing I will say for now is that for speaker cable, in general, the thicker the conductors, the better. (Low inductance and resistance is more important than low capacitance for speaker wire.) A good starting point for speaker wire on a budget is Apex Jr. 8 to 14 gauge wire.

 

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