Do Real Audiophiles Need Balance Controls?

RE: Do Real Audiophiles Need Balance Controls? , posted on May 18, 2020 at 11:13:08
BillH Audiophile Posts: 3913 Location: Baton Rouge Joined: December 23, 1999	I have done without them, but on the whole I prefer to have one. What I don't' really want is independent controls for each channel.

Better to have and not need than to need as not have!, posted on May 18, 2020 at 11:23:09
JohnKutheRN Audiophile Posts: 529 Location: MO Joined: September 16, 2019	Like if you suspect one channel is out or otherwise compromised, the ability to turn down/off one side of a stereo playback can be invaluable. John Kuthe...

RE: Do Real Audiophiles Need Balance Controls? , posted on May 18, 2020 at 11:27:56
2-ears Audiophile Posts: 240 Location: Orange County, CA Joined: January 19, 2003	It may be the best option when you can't position yourself in the sweet spot. Oh wait. A real audiophile would reposition the room in order to sit in the sweet spot.

Yes......., posted on May 18, 2020 at 11:35:53
Todd Krieger Audiophile Posts: 37333 Location: SW United States Joined: November 2, 2000	Especially if he/she uses tubes, the outputs on each channel are not necessarily equal to begin with.............

Mono switch is nice to have too..., posted on May 18, 2020 at 12:02:47
The Killer Piglet Audiophile Posts: 4780 Location: FL Joined: January 2, 2002	just saying. KP

Since we're kind of unbalanced to begin with . . . , posted on May 18, 2020 at 13:03:54
Brian H P Audiophile Posts: 1291 Location: Oregon Joined: December 18, 2012	. . . why not?

Yes, posted on May 18, 2020 at 14:52:55

hesson11
Audiophile

Posts: 2281
Location: Florida
Joined: December 8, 2005

I find recordings to vary in presenting a centered soundstage. I listen almost exclusively to classical music, and I know (usually) where the musicians are supposed to be located in relation to one another. In many recordings, I find that some player or group of players is too far left or too far right to present a realistic soundstage. I don't really care about anyone's intent. I want as close a facsimile as possible to real musicians in real concert halls.

Well said! [nt], posted on May 18, 2020 at 14:56:24
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26483 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012

Never had a need here in 30 years - nt, posted on May 18, 2020 at 14:57:27
AbeCollins Audiophile Posts: 46306 Location: USA Joined: June 22, 2001 Contributor Since: February 2, 2002	.

Is it the musician's intent? Or the balance engineer's intent? [nt] ;-), posted on May 18, 2020 at 14:58:15
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26483 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012

RE: Well said! [nt], posted on May 18, 2020 at 15:02:42
JohnKutheRN Audiophile Posts: 529 Location: MO Joined: September 16, 2019	Yep, and include such things as seat belts, helmets and condoms! :-) John Kuthe...

RE: Do Real Audiophiles Need Balance Controls? , posted on May 18, 2020 at 15:20:28

RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001

My Audio Note M3

Input selector + Volume Left + Volume Right = happy.

Yes and No, posted on May 18, 2020 at 15:40:07
Story Audiophile Posts: 10459 Location: NJ Joined: December 11, 2000	kick musicians out of the mixdown/mastering room. I'm one who thinks that good tone and balance controls are a necessity. Rooms, ears, and systems are far from perfect.

You've taken my bass and treble . . ., posted on May 18, 2020 at 16:12:04
Billy Wonka Audiophile Posts: 3765 Joined: April 25, 2013 Contributor Since: October 15, 2013	You at least have to leave my balance. It is useful for those of us that don't do wall treatments or have sickly tubes. Often perplexed by the engineering attitude that their device is perfectly voiced and balanced and will stay that way forever--not.

Here's some irony., posted on May 18, 2020 at 16:47:11
Kal Rubinson Reviewer Posts: 12436 Location: New York Joined: June 5, 2002	I have left all physical media and tubes behind but my server has all the controls and then some.

Yep!... N/T, posted on May 18, 2020 at 17:17:37
musetap Audiophile Posts: 31879 Location: San Francisco Joined: July 8, 2003 Contributor Since: January 28, 2004	z "Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure

"Purist Design", posted on May 18, 2020 at 19:25:48
JDK Audiophile Posts: 19671 Location: Sydney Joined: June 26, 2000	It's a sneaky way of paying more, for less ;-) I have Musical Fidelity - no balance, no tone controls, not even any circuit protection. Trying to hide from entropy John K

RE: Is it the musician's intent? Or the balance engineer's intent? [nt] ;-), posted on May 18, 2020 at 19:26:59
howard Audiophile Posts: 2954 Location: No. California Joined: December 31, 1999	Who decides?

RE: Mono switch is nice to have too..., posted on May 18, 2020 at 19:31:03
howard Audiophile Posts: 2954 Location: No. California Joined: December 31, 1999	My Sumo Athena had one and I would use it for about a week or so after listener fatigue. Once I switched back to stereo, it was like a new discovery.

RE: Mono switch is nice to have too..., posted on May 18, 2020 at 20:24:51
hahax@verizon.net Audiophile Posts: 4310 Location: New Jersey Joined: March 22, 2006	And a balance control and mono switch allow easy balancing of a system in a difficult acoustic environment. For purists who are willing to pay more add a switch to take them out of circuit.

Absolutely, as all audiophiles are unbalanced. nt, posted on May 18, 2020 at 20:28:40
viridian	Nt

From what I've read, it depends, posted on May 18, 2020 at 20:43:21
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26483 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	Some musicians get out of the recording studio and they never want to hear the recording again! ;-)

Exactly, posted on May 18, 2020 at 20:57:09
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26483 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	Although I do have to say that it's a drag sometimes to control volume/balance from within the computer. In fact, I'll admit to a dirty little secret: I've put analog volume controls between my pre-pro and a couple of my power amps - it's just so much easier! And, man, those Chinese built some good stuff for $60 (in the pre-Covid era anyway!). And don't pay attention to that spelling!

RE: Do Real Audiophiles Need Balance Controls? , posted on May 18, 2020 at 21:37:45
Dawnrazor Audiophile Posts: 12592 Location: N. California Joined: April 9, 2004	My answer is NO. Never needed one. I once bought a CJ preamp used. I sold it to a coworker because my cdp direct sounded better. Mofo complained about the balance not working and stiffed me $300. Its not my fault dude was not an audiophile and had a stupid setup... Cut to razor sounding violins

Would rather have dual mono with individual volume controls, posted on May 19, 2020 at 06:27:06
David S. Audiophile Posts: 3552 Location: Mountains of WNC Joined: August 31, 2000	And? I do, at least "kinda" Both my VTL Ultimate and Parasound JC2 have master volume knobs, but a knob to adjust each channels gain, hence balance.

Generally, no, posted on May 19, 2020 at 06:42:29

Dave_K

I can't think of any recording I own where the L-R balance is off and requires correction. If I did find recordings like this, I would surely not listen to them.

If I had mismatched gain in my L&R channels or other equipment faults, I'd get them fixed.

If I couldn't set up my speakers properly to provide a centered image, I wouldn't call myself an audiophile.

The only other purpose I can think of is to correct a hearing imbalance. I'm not sure how I'd deal with that problem if I had it. Maybe give up on expensive systems and switch to headphones.

Most audiophiles need to get their ears cleaned out occasionally...., posted on May 19, 2020 at 06:50:00
Tom Schuman Audiophile Posts: 2632 Location: Bremen Joined: October 22, 2003	That usually restores balance problems. Failing that, speaker positioning and room treatments do wonders!!

RE: "Purist Design"- Achievable with Balance Control, posted on May 19, 2020 at 07:19:50

Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001

Using relay circuits for left and right volume (used by manufacturers Sim Audio, Rogue and lots of others I suspect) there is no aural degradation beyond that of one resister in the circuit for each channel. Balance control simply permits a slightly different resister in each. So a purist design with the balance control that some people want and others need.

What is the magic in Musical Fidelity's "precision laser-trimmed electronic attenuator?"

RE: Would rather have dual mono , posted on May 19, 2020 at 08:15:38
bare Audiophile Posts: 1879 Joined: April 14, 2009	Had that for a few years. It was an 'interesting' affectation. But it was largely an unnecessary Pain inna butt to live with.

Don't know about audiophiles, posted on May 19, 2020 at 08:22:52

M3 lover
Audiophile

Posts: 6604
Location: SW Mich
Joined: May 29, 2005
Contributor
Since: July 4, 2007

but as a dedicated music hobbyist I wouldn't want to be without one.

There are recordings (admittedly not many) that can be improved by a balance adjustment.

When speakers can't be set up in an acoustically balanced position in the room a balance control can be the easiest cure.

Several times I've found the ability to turn off one channel made it easier to trouble-shoot a system problem.

A friend has a (firearm related) hearing loss in one ear. The balance control allows him to compensate when listening to my system without rearranging anything else.

My line stage has stepped controls for each channel so fine tuning can be done easily.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

RE: Do Real Audiophiles Need Balance Controls? , posted on May 19, 2020 at 09:02:32

Larry I
Audiophile

Posts: 2229
Location: No. Va.
Joined: June 28, 2000

Unless you actually have a balance control and can fiddle with it, you may never know the benefits or how sensitive one's ears can be to even slight imbalances.

I did not think a balance control is really needed or helpful until I got a Mark Levinson No. 32 preamplifier many years ago. It allows for extremely small increments of both volume and balance change (a microprocessor switches relays for different discrete resistors). Using a remote, which allows one to make easy A-B comparisons, I tried adjusting volume and balance. With most music, it is hard to hear any difference in volume with a 1 db change. But, it was relatively easy to hear a channel balance change of just .2 db. I was surprised by this result. I also noticed that with phono cartridges, there is considerably larger degree of imbalance than other sources (with the Levinson, you can adjust balance for the phono input independently of the overall system balance, something extremely convenient).

I have moved on from the Levinson, but, in my two subsequent linestages, I had the builders install balance controls (I also insisted on remote volume control).

RE: Do Real Audiophiles Need Balance Controls? , posted on May 19, 2020 at 11:29:16

Palustris
Audiophile

Posts: 2408
Location: Cape Cod
Joined: September 12, 2008

I build my amps with two volume controls and both of the volume controls have a numbered "dial" so the two outputs can be matched. This requires that the knobs be calibrated (loosen one knob's set screw) with a DVM so that the output voltage is equal at about the typical listening setting, e.g. -30dB in the dials below. In practice I don't think I have ever used this feature as a balance control, but I found that stereo volume pots don't always track together exactly and the single pots do.

Do Real Cyclists Need Kickstands?, posted on May 19, 2020 at 14:18:08
Sebrof Audiophile Posts: 634 Location: AusTX Joined: July 12, 2002	C'mon man, don't be a Fred

No, they merely adjust their hearing aids..., posted on May 19, 2020 at 15:03:20
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001	as necessary without getting out of their chairs. First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

I like Cary SLP-05's implementation of channel balance control, posted on May 19, 2020 at 16:29:31
Jay Buridan Audiophile Posts: 10284 Location: Michigan Joined: January 21, 2004	Separate attenuators for each channel's volume. But now I use the balance control on my PS Audio DirectStream DAC. The short answer to your question is yes, but a manufacturer whose preamp lacks balance controls will try to convince you that the answer is no. "Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. " ― W.C. Fields

As opposed to a fake audiophile, posted on May 19, 2020 at 16:35:45
3db Audiophile Posts: 1514 Joined: July 22, 2003	Who realizes that the muscians intent doesnt give a crap about anyone's listening preferences.

RE: Do Real Audiophiles Need Balance Controls? , posted on May 19, 2020 at 17:17:33
6bq5 Audiophile Posts: 4393 Location: SF Bay Joined: August 16, 2001	I don't have a Balance Pot - But I do have Two MONO Volume Pots - Happy Listening

Most of us do. nt, posted on May 19, 2020 at 20:22:59
free.ranger Audiophile Posts: 16951 Location: Santa Fe, NM Joined: April 8, 2004 Contributor Since: January 7, 2005

Yes! Remote ones, posted on May 19, 2020 at 20:47:52
Rick58 Audiophile Posts: 1118 Location: No. California Joined: January 24, 2001	McIntosh C220 now Parasound P 7, I won't do without REMOTE control of balance ever again.

RE: Yes! Remote ones, posted on May 20, 2020 at 06:06:58

Larry I
Audiophile

Posts: 2229
Location: No. Va.
Joined: June 28, 2000

I really like remote control for balance setting too. It is not easy to hear what is going on if you have to leave your listening spot to make an adjustment.

I had such remote control of balance with a Levinson No. 32 preamp, and with a Emotive Audio Epifania linestage (had to get the builder to do a custom installation for that feature), but, the linestage I currently own has only remote control of volume. It took quite a bit of effort to get that feature built into this custom-designed linestage. The builder generally uses only very ancient parts (Western Electric transformers and caps), and eschews almost anything "modern." For my balance control, he put in Davin controls from the 1950's; it took forever for him to find two such controls that tracked properly and sounded good at all steps on the potentiometer.

RE: "Purist Design"- Achievable with Balance Control, posted on May 20, 2020 at 15:35:27
JDK Audiophile Posts: 19671 Location: Sydney Joined: June 26, 2000	I missed the adjustability when I first got the MF. But got used to it. My room is fairly balanced, so it was no big deal. I don't know about their precision laser-trimmed electronic attenuators. Mine is old, with a motor driven pot. Trying to hide from entropy John K

RE: Do Real Audiophiles Need Balance Controls? , posted on May 21, 2020 at 00:04:05

JURB
Audiophile

Posts: 2056
Location: North Ohio
Joined: May 29, 2016

I general I say no. The only time you need it is something sounds off. If something sounds off you get it fixed.

If you are always hooking up different stuff and whatever maybe, but to settle in and have a a system ? I say no. You should not be 20 feet from one speaker and right on top of the other.

In that case a simple balance control will not fix it anyway. Perhaps with EQ and digital delay you can come close but why not just set the speakers up right ?

If you work on the stuff like me, say you bring in a power amp, I feed it with a pre out of a receiver, then I like to have a balance control. But that is not so much for listening as testing.

So my vote is for the end user of high end audio who is not a dickhead, a balance control is of very little or no use.

What little use ? Well you can sing along with Beatles - Taxman, all vocals in one side and instruments on the other. Like automatic Karaoke. Same with Swinging Medallions - Double Shot Of My Baby's Love. Actually CCR - Susie Q, but finding the original version is not easy, if I couldn't get it for 20 years it is hard to get. I didn't decide to buy it so... But it was remixed and no longer has the vocals one sided. (and they change toward the end) They may have remixed it because of the proliferation of systems that have one woofer.

But how many people want to sing those ? The ones who would even use it would be few and far between.

Even if a phono cartridge is unbalanced that much it should be replaced. (in a MM the whole thing, in a MC the stylus, but being 80% of the cost just do the whole thing or buy a Pickering) If you got a low left channel in a cassette deck, have a look at the tape head. It probably has a trench worn in it. I can actually recalibrate some of them. The gain and EQ must go up but if the electronics is quiet enough it is not bad. Then recording, ugh, USUALLY I can get that to an acceptable level of performance. I mean sounds good, and when the music is loud on the tape like at 0dB the Dolby switch makes no difference, which is how it is supposed to be.

But we are talking all faults in the source. Pioneer, for which you might not have the utmost respect did say it right - a speaker is only as good as what is put into it. Well that is true of everything else, like your amp, preamp and whatever. I can do wonders with EQ, I could give you +/-50dB. But there is that damn noise.

Other sources, the PC or DA convertor is not likely to have a channel balance problem. Well maybe if they have tubes but putting tubes in something like that, sorry to offend if I do, I think that it is dumb, it is like putting a 12dB/octave filter on a lawnmower. You do not have a tube source, nothing can restore it. It is a novelty.

In fact I might be in the market for a DA, but I don't need a tube. I don't have the anywhere else. My inputs are not tubes, my outputs are not tubes so it makes zero sense. Maybe if you got a tube system and want to keep the sound as "tube" as possible I can understand, but for me it is just a waste. Flat twenty to twenty and low distortion, no noise and I will be fine.

There is however one thing that must come with the lack of a balance control. A good volume control. Some of them are terrible in balance, especially at the low end. I would much rather have that work right than have to use another control to compensate. In fact when I build my amp I might look into those stepped controls. Stack of resistors and a switch somewhat like a scope range switch.

You know that frequency response, like by labs like Hirsch-Houck or whatever used to test at max on the volume control because they were aware that capacitance and all that shit comes into play unless it is wide open.

With a stepped attenuator you can fix that, and in fact that is exactly what they do in scopes. That is one of my hobbies, fixing them. If the design practice they use(d) in those was applied to audio there would be no discussion. Perfect is perfect and that is that.

Balance Controls? , posted on May 22, 2020 at 13:07:41

hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15388
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000

YUP. my friend would adjust the balance and it seemed just like the focus ring on an SLR camera. when the adjustment was right, the image SNAPS into focus.

there's no accounting for left to right signal strength in components such as phono cartridges. the original recordist could have been wrong and it was missed by the mastering engineer.

another detail that is lost on many people is that each recording has an optimal playback level. again, when you get it right, there's no denying it. things SNAP into focus in another way.
...regards...tr

Yes (For a Different Reason), posted on May 25, 2020 at 14:55:38

Jim Hodgson
Audiophile

Posts: 399
Location: New York City
Joined: March 9, 2006

I do a lot of swapping of components and cables in a system that's both quad-amped and inaccessible from the rear. So, I'm frequently plugging and unplugging connections that I can't see. As careful and methodical as I try to be, I need the ability to quick check that all my lefts are left and rights are right. And a preamp balance control works beautifully for this.

It's also nice to have for those occasions that I want to hear "mono mono" (as opposed to "stereo mono").

I have a feeling that the balance control on my preamp is penalty-free, but I don't really have a way to confirm that by experiment. Just trust.

Yes you need Balance and Tone Control....., posted on May 25, 2020 at 17:53:14

Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4593
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001

As no room is perfect and no recording is perfect. There will be times when listening to recordings be it Vinyl, CD, Tuner, Tape deck, Reel to Reel, streamer that will need some help.

I use a SAE 2800 Paramtric EQ that I modded and sounds so good and quiet that my buddy that knew my system before to be without tone controls thought my system now was so transparent and quiet that he didn't even know the EQ was until I told him. He was shocked when he found because he believes in that less is more.

General Asylum

Do Real Audiophiles Need Balance Controls?

174.222.1.97