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another nail into hi fidelity

124.171.163.135
Posted on April 22, 2017 at 00:11:23
digda_beat
Audiophile

Posts: 1723
Location: Canberra
Joined: July 31, 2003
 The end os hifi turns up occasionally as a discussion point. With the development of hi rez digital and the continuation of vinyl its not all bad.
I have been reading Davis Byrne's excellent How Music Works, and there is certainly a demon on the horizon. With the decline of music sales, I wonder if we are going to see a decline in recording quality, and big advances for recording. Byrne recounts how making one of his albums about 10 years ago cost around $250,000, something which would be harder to do now in the days of cheap downloads, file sharing etc.
Sure it is possible to do a great recording for less if its a small band, but for some types of music its going to get difficult

 

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RE: another nail into hi fidelity, posted on April 22, 2017 at 01:52:39
PAR
 " With the decline of music sales"

There is no decline in music sales. Global revenues for the recording industry increased by 3.2% in 2016. Local markets reflect this direction, UK increased by 5.1%., USA by 11.4%.

What has happened is that the distribution of income from the various media for delivery has changed with physical media (except vinyl) and downloads declining with such losses being substituted with income from streaming and other sources such as performance rights. Considering the comparative novelty of paid for streaming this is highly significant as it is currently in a period of rapid growth yet does not exist to any great extent outside of the US and European markets ( any in Oz?).

So the outlook seems very positive for the industry overall although there are issues in relation to streaming services and their outgoings which will need to be resolved in order to ensure their future viability.

How does this look for the costs of recording? The shakeout has probably already occured. Certainly the use of costly resources such as were seen during e.g the 1970s has declined. This has led to a loss of many large recording facilities. However technology has come to the rescue and digital media have made the potential cost of recording less than in the past. In some sectors such as classical music these changes have resulted in a reduction in the use of large recording studios and the use of other locations such as concert halls and churches.


How does this all affect recording quality? Ultimately this really depends more on the tastes and expectations of the clients of the recording facilities rather than just costs. The "loudness wars" are proof of this as are the results of the changes in techniques over the past 50 or 60 years which have moved from trying to capture a live sound to creating a synthetic aural world. I blame the Beatles.


 

RE: another nail into hi fidelity, posted on April 27, 2017 at 10:41:48
Mr_Lemon
Audiophile

Posts: 65
Joined: October 15, 2010
Let us not forget that the real winner in streaming is compressed music formats. Apple still has not embraced the idea of 'Hi-Rez' even when that means CD Quality. Unfortunately, Apple is still the streaming boss.

Does recording quality go down? It's more that recording technology has improved to an extent that a large studio could be a desktop/laptop with some impressive A to D converters and expensive Mics and Mic Preamps.

The recordings could indeed be quality, but the final result may not be great because of the idea of Mastering for a certain format.

I remember that Apple U2 exclusive album was 'Mastered for iTunes' and its overall 'sound' was awful-ish on my full system. Maybe it sounded great on headphones, but that is not how i listen.

Currently, I listen to Spotify, but even there, I believe they have a mastering technique that makes every recording sound same-ish. It's like what radio stations did with EQ and Compression. The musics Tone and relative Dynamics seem similar from track to track.

So. New recording can sound great. New recordings can sound awful.


TOM...







 

RE: another nail into hi fidelity, posted on April 27, 2017 at 13:59:29
Bromo33333
Audiophile

Posts: 3502
Location: Ipswich, MA
Joined: May 4, 2004
 "I wonder if we are going to see a decline in recording quality, and big advances for recording"

Certainly the big advances are not as big, and a successful artist no longer releases albums once or twice per year but an album every few years.

The sound quality may be better now than before, but the tools and recording gear is cheaper than ever also which mitigates things.
====
"You are precisely as big as what you love and precisely as small as what you allow to annoy you." ~ R A Wilson

 

RE: another nail into hi fidelity, posted on April 27, 2017 at 14:48:27
JURB
Audiophile

Posts: 2056
Location: North Ohio
Joined: May 29, 2016
 "It's more that recording technology has improved to an extent that a large studio could be a desktop/laptop..."

I have a program that is essentially a 128 channel mixer. Of course unless you get a special soundcard you can only record two tracks at a time, but you can post mix.

It makes a special type of WAV file and if you go save as an MP3 it calls it lossy and asks if you want to proceed. Of course you can only go to that format after all the mixing is done.

It also has various effects and supposedly can do video but I have never gotten into that.

So we are pretty much there.

 

RE: another nail into hi fidelity, posted on May 1, 2017 at 15:00:37
magiccarpetride
Audiophile

Posts: 1523
Joined: March 31, 2010
 One of the problems with the vinyl comeback is that we seem to be discovering that records that were pressed back in the pre-digital days tend to sound better than records that are pressed nowadays. There may be many reasons for that. I recently purchased Erykah Badu's brand new sealed vinyl from 2003, and the quality was atrocious. The quality of vinyl itself is garbage, an obvious patchwork of recycled rejects. The LP is warped, and sounds terrible. If you were to use that record to demonstrate to the skeptics how vinyl can match, and even surpass CDs, you'd be summarily laughed out of the room. And rightly so.

Looks like modern day vinyl pressings are being done differently than back in the heyday of records. For one, many pressing plants had to be closed down when vinyl sales died. The equipment was sold for scraps, and the experienced staff was laid off.

Coming back into the vogue 20 - 30 years later, it is not easy to just pick up from where we left it off. For one, it gets hard to find quality tools for vinyl pressing. Also, it gets hard to find experienced, qualified staff to man the vinyl production process.

All that is leading many of us to give up on buying new LPs, and going back to 'crate digging', frequenting the record sales events and visiting used records stores. Meaning, the money we're now spending on buying LPs is not going into the artists' pockets.

 

RE: another nail into hi fidelity, posted on May 3, 2017 at 07:23:01
Brianmch
Audiophile

Posts: 40
Location: Midwest US
Joined: January 21, 2010
 I have to +1 to much of what you wrote Magic.

I have a minor exception though.

One is demand for good quality pressings got Acoustic Sounds into the game. Their efforts to spend big to acquire and rehab pressing machines to produce excellent recordings raised the bar. There were few new issues released on vinyl, then more. The initial quality of these pressings was poor but it has been improving as consumers demand quality. My last three purchases of new issues on vinyl were better than those of 5 years ago.

I do think that the niche discerning public will reject highly-compressed masters in favor of higher quality ones which can result in continued return to higher quality vinyl.

A link recently sent me to a small LP presser in LA who charges $5 per record. They do full production from provided art and music media. Minimum order is 1000 units with 500 unit additional pressings. So $5K for a small band isn't really chump change for a pressing but it allows bands like British Sea Power to operate outside the Apple universe. It sounds okay, not unlike what I was buying back in the 80's pressed for the IRS label. NOT audiophile approved, but better than an MP3.

The hipster generation likes quirky physical stuff, hence the resurgence of retro hifi. Look at the value trendline of Mac and Marantz gear.


 

RE: another nail into hi fidelity, posted on May 3, 2017 at 09:46:16
magiccarpetride
Audiophile

Posts: 1523
Joined: March 31, 2010
 The hipster generation likes quirky physical stuff, hence the resurgence of retro hifi. Look at the value trendline of Mac and Marantz gear.

A local record store owner told me that hipsters are his frequent customers. He said they like to buy used LPs. Sometimes, when they want to purchase some old record, he says he warns them that it is badly scratched, but then much to his surprise the hipsters reply how they actually prefer those badly scratched records, because the crackling noises and pops and clicks gives those records some 'street cred'. It's like they're proud to show their battle scars.

Crazy, eh?

 

RE: another nail into hi fidelity, posted on May 3, 2017 at 09:49:41
Inmate51
 A couple of thoughts:

$5,000 IS chump change for a small band. For a five piece band, that's only $1K per member, and even less if they have a manager/promoter who helps. If there's some "actual real" band which gets "actual real" gigs, if the members can't come up with $1K each, they should think about finding an "actual real" job to fund their band hobby.

On the other hand, a 1,000 pressing minimum is WAAY more than most small bands will ever sell to vinyl LP owners/users/band fans. If some small band were to buy 1,000 pressings, it's likely that they'll be hauling most of them around to gigs for the next several years.

Given this reality, I don't think the pressing company is interested in small bands anyway.

:)

 

RE: another nail into hi fidelity, posted on May 3, 2017 at 10:23:49
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Reconditioned pressing equipment is sold today and MOST vinyl is pressed on these dinosaurs, reconditioned or not.

New machines with computer integration, lower reject rates and a bunch of other features are now on the market.

Too much is never enough

 

RE: another nail into hi fidelity, posted on May 3, 2017 at 10:59:06
magiccarpetride
Audiophile

Posts: 1523
Joined: March 31, 2010
 New machines with computer integration, lower reject rates and a bunch of other features are now on the market.

What I find rather surprising is that no one seems to be working on utilizing 3D printing technology for producing vinyl records.

 

RE: another nail into hi fidelity, posted on May 3, 2017 at 11:36:41
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Does the Resoution yet exist?
A 15khz tracing on an inner groove will be VERY difficult.

If records, than why NOT a CD?


Too much is never enough

 

RE: another nail into hi fidelity, posted on May 4, 2017 at 09:20:35
magiccarpetride
Audiophile

Posts: 1523
Joined: March 31, 2010
 If records, than why NOT a CD?

What, 3D print a CD? Why would anyone do that when you can easily rip an original CD, buy a cheap blank CD, and then burn it. The CD copy will be virtually indistinguishable from the original CD. No need to mess around with 3D printing with digital content.

 

RE: another nail into hi fidelity, posted on May 4, 2017 at 10:09:52
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 You miss my point.

I'm asking the question about printer resolution. It's not limitless.
Too low a resolution will produce a poor copy at best and unlistenable at worst.

Does a 3D printer have the resolution to print a CD? or maybe a BlueRay?

And not to forget these printers are DIGITAL. So? You are making a digital copy of an analogue medium. To be played back on an analogue machine!

If someone demonstrates 3D printed vinyl? That'd be cool.

Too much is never enough

 

RE: another nail into hi fidelity, posted on May 4, 2017 at 11:46:26
magiccarpetride
Audiophile

Posts: 1523
Joined: March 31, 2010
 You miss my point.

I'm asking the question about printer resolution. It's not limitless.
Too low a resolution will produce a poor copy at best and unlistenable at worst.

Does a 3D printer have the resolution to print a CD? or maybe a BlueRay?

And not to forget these printers are DIGITAL. So? You are making a digital copy of an analogue medium. To be played back on an analogue machine!

If someone demonstrates 3D printed vinyl? That'd be cool.


I was referring to nano printing. This technology is manipulating objects and structures at the molecular level, so its resolution is pretty close to the resolution at which mother nature works.

Those printers are not digital. There is no such thing as a digital printer. It's the same as saying that a speaker is digital. All speakers are analog -- you cannot push air with bits and bytes.

No one to my knowledge is working on 3D printed vinyl. Eventually someone will tackle it...

 

RE: another nail into hi fidelity, posted on May 4, 2017 at 12:22:41
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I just looked up some of this stuff.
Resolution of line / space down to 1/2 micron line with 2 micron space. That's pretty good. Based on the SEM photos I link, that should be within the capabilities of a current printer.

nano 'Sculputures' have good detail but I didn't see much in the line of 'size' or 'scale'. Though one image did have a 20 micron measuring bar superimposed.

The files from which this stuff is made are of necessity digital.

I don't know what it takes to 'do' a record groove, but it ain't far off. Next questions might involve materials? What is or isn't compatible with a current playback system? Too hard might damage the needle? Too soft and might only survive a single play.

When is your first release?
Too much is never enough

 

RE: another nail into hi fidelity, posted on May 13, 2017 at 23:23:18
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Do not believe the hype! Global music sales has never been higher.
The money is moved around differently and over several fronts- a different biz model.

 

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