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I just spoke to a car audio buff here at the office...

139.142.233.93
Posted on April 11, 2017 at 10:35:05
Jonesy
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 and I had no idea what was involved in award winning car audio systems.

His set-up goes back 15 years or so, and he was explaining how judging was based on pinpoint imaging and depth, as in vocals front and center, with drums behind, etc etc., and how it sounds relative to where you sit in the car. Also compared was the car set-up to a reference "home" audio system.

He would tune the car system electronically and acoustically to the interior, as we do to our home based audio rooms. Extremely interesting to hear him speak on this.

And yes, much money and time can be invested.

He hasn't kept up, but I'd be curious to see what competitions/criteria exist today.

Admittedly, I've been in the dark about car audio competitions, thinking all it meant was to open up the trunk lid and measure the decibels.

I haven't heard his system yet, but look forward to it.

Cheers!

Jonesy




"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

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You need a very quiet car to make it worthwhile. My entry-level Camry, posted on April 11, 2017 at 10:39:53
oldmkvi
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Posts: 10581
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 just doesn't cut it.
I wasted a good bit of $ on a new system, and a no-return policy.
Crap.

 

RE: I just spoke to a car audio buff here at the office..., posted on April 11, 2017 at 12:12:28
fin1bxn@msn.com
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 Ford has had the shaker system for about 10 years. It had / has all the type of settings you mentioned. I had it in a Ford Mustang and it was outstanding. Real audio and placement seating variable. It was a $1000 option but well worth it if you spend time in you car everyday commuting.

 

RE: You need a very quiet car to make it worthwhile. My entry-level Camry, posted on April 11, 2017 at 12:33:06
AbeCollins
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I assume you had your new system installed by a car stereo shop, rather than paying upfront for an upgraded factory stereo.

I played that game a couple times and based on personal experience it's better to pay upfront for the upgraded factory stereo when buying the car.




 

RE: I just spoke to a car audio buff here at the office..., posted on April 11, 2017 at 12:43:27
AbeCollins
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 Some of those guys spend big money and know what they're doing, which isn't the case with most car stereo shops.

Luxury car manufacturers pay close attention to car acoustics, component selection, and layout especially on their premium stereo options. I'm willing to pay for the factory upgrade option and get much better sound, vs having the typical car audio hack put aftermarket crap in my car.

Even the more expensive aftermarket gear can't compete with quality factory systems that are tuned to the car's interior by acoustic engineers.


 

RE: You need a very quiet car to make it worthwhile. My entry-level Camry, posted on April 11, 2017 at 14:40:12
PAR
 Last year my friend's Jaguar XK had to go into the repair shop. Meanwhile he was given a courtesy Jaguar with a Meridian audio system ( factory fitted option). Now I have never been that keen on Meridian home audio but that car system was unbelieveably impressive. Its achievement was way beyond my best expectations and of real audiophile quality. I thought about buying that Jag for a minute or two just for the sound system until I realised that I can't afford it and that I only drive about 500 miles a year (in my 2003 Ford Fiesta) :-).

 

RE: I just spoke to a car audio buff here at the office..., posted on April 12, 2017 at 01:26:18
Todd Krieger
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Posts: 37333
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 From my experiences with those directly involved in "competition" car audio, sound quality was not a concern..... Just sheer volume in dB........

The people I knew had lost most of their hearing in their 20s.

The few times I was in a vehicle with "competition audio", when it was played at levels where hearing protection wasn't required, the sonics weren't exactly stellar. This is in spite of a lot of accessories that are common to "high-end" tweaks like special fuses and wiring.

 

Never been able to justify diverting that much money to a car..., posted on April 12, 2017 at 10:37:28
jbrrp1
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Posts: 483
Location: Minnesota
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 I have thought that getting an upscale car to access the higher quality stereo options might be the way to go, but I guess I'd rather roll with my $25k Camry and use the $30k - $40k savings for the home stereo. That's where I really care how things sound.

 

RE: You need a very quiet car to make it worthwhile. My entry-level Camry, posted on April 12, 2017 at 13:11:58
Kingshead
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 It's really not that difficult to best a factory installed system, and for about a third of what the manufacturer charges. The problem is, just as in our hobby, the masses aren't interested in quality, it doesn't sell, so the car shops give the public what they want, a trunk full of bass boxes.

I usually do my own, have for decades, it's where I started biamping back in the late 70's. In 1998 for my wife's Volvo I decided to have a shop do the work, they tried to push a bass box on me but I wasn't having it. The final system consisted of a set of Pioneer components in all four doors driven by a 4 channel Rockford amp, and 2 8" bass drivers in the rear deck with sealed tubes extending to the bottom of the trunk driven by a second Rockford. The head unit was a Pioneer Premier, I can't remember the model numbers of any of the equipment now.

The bass wouldn't rattle your windows when I drove by, but the sound would rival most decent home systems. The installers at the shop were floored, they never thought of doing the bass drivers that way. But I can't blame them, most of the kids that spend large sums on there car sound don't want what I had, they want MEGA bass.

I later did something similar with her Mercedes and the system was a huge improvement, even over the multi amped high end system Mercedes put in there S class cars at the time. At the same time I put together a system in my Chevy Z71 with the goal to do it for a $1000. I went a bit over, I believe the end total was $1200, but the system annihilated every system I had ever owned before. I purchased a demo head unit for under $200, used 2 6"passive bazooka tubes driven by a Rockford Punch 160, a set of Kenwood components in the doors, and 2 pair of Pioneer plate speakers in the dash and rear roof pillars, also powered by Rockford amplification.

Again, the 6" bass drivers wouldn't rattle your windows when I drove by, but the bass was fast, tight, musical, and plenty deep, you could definitely feel it in your gut.

Martin

I should add, I currently own a 2009 Mustang GT with the premium sound package, meaning the shaker 500. For a factory system it's better than many, but still only so so. The bass is boomy, the mids thin, the highs meh, and imaging is non existent, we almost never even turn it on.

 

RE: I just spoke to a car audio buff here at the office..., posted on April 12, 2017 at 15:25:25
DRam
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 When he was 16 or 17 my son put a system in his Plymouth Horizon. The day he finished installing it came in and asked me to come listen to it. We went out, he put in Beethoven's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor. It was the most impressive rendition I've ever heard.

Of course, given the vehicle his system was in, it coul be really enjoyed only when the car was parked with the engine off.

Just sayin' an auto system can sound very good. It's just that most I've heard are set up to rattle windows on Main Street with the bass.

 

I always thought it was about SPL, but apparently not..., posted on April 12, 2017 at 20:06:01
Jonesy
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  Since: March 1, 2018
 These Sound Quality competition rules are very similar to our criteria...

I guess it's an evolution similar to going from quantity to quality. A path many of us have taken.

Jonesy

P.S. The IASCA rule guide loses points with the tacky artwork. Oh well.


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: I just spoke to a car audio buff here at the office..., posted on April 13, 2017 at 03:05:10
Kim S.
Audiophile

Posts: 201
Location: NW Michigan
Joined: March 12, 2004
 Years ago I worked in a large government office. Our office manager was fair but very conservative in his manner and did not associate much with the other workers. He had a corvette which he rented a special parking space for and kept a cover over it. That was about the most interesting thing I knew about him.

I received a transfer and on one of my last days he came over to my desk and invited down to the parking garage to see his car. Was I surprised to hear a full blown DIY audio system with multiple amps, subwoofers,ect. Even more surprising was he played THE Clash and Sex Pistols at very high volume. Just shows you can't judge a book by its cover.

On my last day he took me and my future spouse who also worked there out to lunch. he even sprang for a bottle of Cooks champagne!

 

The basic car audio system , posted on April 13, 2017 at 05:45:42
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
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 - say a std grade Honda Civic has 8 speakers-150 watts of power, with an upgrade system of 10 speakers+Subwoofer and 350 watts. Figure the number of Civics and Corollas and Focus alone deliver more watts of "Hi-Fi" than the complete high end audio industry... You figure for the US alone, the auto industry delivered over 3 Billion (with a "B") watts of bluetooth interfaced high background noise musical entertainment systems!




"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

"pinpoint imaging and depth" - Not In Stereoph Land, posted on April 13, 2017 at 19:11:41
Newey
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Posts: 537
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 26, 2012
 Curious.

They value that when Stereophile in general, and The Great Audio Prophet* in particular has disparaged the idea.

Indeed, The Great Audio Prophet has reserved his deepest contempt for any piece of equipment that's capable of reproducing music in 3 dimensions, deeper contempt for any puny listener who demands that from a music system, and his black-hole-deepest contempt for the originator and promoter of the ideal [that'd be Harry Pearson].

* Who's name we're not worthy to utter [or type], except with special permission and dispensation from The Prophet or one of his high priests [AD].
Severius! Supremus Invictus

 

RE: "pinpoint imaging and depth" - Not In Stereoph Land, posted on April 14, 2017 at 00:36:35
Todd Krieger
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Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
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 The only way to get "pinpoint imaging" in a car is if it has bench seats and the listener is seated in the middle..... With nobody seated on the driver's side or passenger side.......

 

RE: Never been able to justify diverting that much money to a car..., posted on April 14, 2017 at 07:52:54
AbeCollins
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There was a time when Toyota had a base stereo system and offered an upgrade. I don't know how they're doing it today.

The upgrade stereo was about $1000 and well worth it. I passed on the upgrade years ago in my 4Runner and regretted it. I ended up letting a car stereo shop upgrade the stereo and speakers which cost me about $1000 but it never matched the audio quality of the 4Runners with factory upgraded stereo.

So it's not just a luxury car thing. Additionally, the decision to upgrade might depend on the car itself. I had a sport coupe with manual transmission and some aftermarket work for performance. I suppose I could have upgraded the stereo but I preferred hearing the engine rev and the exhaust note. ;-)


 

Good Point!, posted on April 14, 2017 at 08:57:23
Jonesy
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
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 Spoke to office auto audio bud on this subject earlier this week. Here's where their competition rules are quite interesting.

A judge would sit in the driver's seat and center stage would image in front of them. The trick is to be able to have a second judge in the passenger side and hear the same effect.

The killer audio test track had a snare being hit 7 times from left to right. Hit no. 4 would have to appear in front of you whichever seat you sat in.

In car audio they use multiple speakers to achieve this though it is very difficult considering cancellation and other anomalies due to sound wave behaviour.

They use various analyzing equipment to help set this up.

I do see however that though car audio enthusiasts have appreciative goals similar to ours, their methods, use of components, and environment is quite different.

Cheers!

Jonesy





"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: You need a very quiet car to make it worthwhile. My entry-level Camry, posted on April 14, 2017 at 10:43:42
Mr Peabody
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Posts: 1109
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA
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 I agree, I've yet to hear a factory system to give much competition to an aftermarket system of quality and good install. There's a system that Chrysler uses in a few cars that is pretty good, I heard one in a Durango and my friend's car, I forget what it is, HS or something. Sometime back JBL had a decent system in the Lincoln. I'd like to hear the Dynaudio system in VW. Or, the Naim system in the Rolls. To hear the sound of most factory systems I have to wonder if auto engineering considers sound at all or if it's just, where can we cram it in.

The trick to low noise and having a car system sound better is Dynamat, or similar product. Some aftermarket insulation does amazing things.

If you have the money a car system can now rival some high end systems for home and kill your average home system. There are processors you can buy that somehow put the sound in front of you like a home system. It's really amazing. So much so, I wonder if I'd find it too distracting. Auto for background or company while driving is one thing but a system that sounds that good is another.

You also have to choose your installer wisely. I went to a shop with my daughter, the guy was more than willing to show off his system, I put in a Dave Grusin CD, the bass was so over driven it was terrible, but that's what some kids think audio should sound like.

 

RE: Good Point!, posted on April 18, 2017 at 00:44:33
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 "Spoke to office auto audio bud on this subject earlier this week. Here's where their competition rules are quite interesting.

"A judge would sit in the driver's seat and center stage would image in front of them. The trick is to be able to have a second judge in the passenger side and hear the same effect."

This would be impossible seated off to the side in a quality home system, let alone a car system.... The timing of the sound waves from each channel must hit the ears simultaneously......

Besides, how do the judges know what "angle" to be seated at? And since it's such tight quarters, a tall judge would likely perceive things quite different from a short judge..........

I guess "tricks" could help, but it seems like such endeavor would make the sound worse..... No different from using digital room correction, which has never impressed me.

"The killer audio test track had a snare being hit 7 times from left to right. Hit no. 4 would have to appear in front of you whichever seat you sat in."

If it's competition, and that was the criterion, I'd use drivers with narrow response in the "snare drum" region..... No point trying to achieve this for the entire audio range.......

"In car audio they use multiple speakers to achieve this though it is very difficult considering cancellation and other anomalies due to sound wave behaviour."

I think if this were to be achieved, it would otherwise sound horrid..........

"They use various analyzing equipment to help set this up."

Maybe computer models too..... Otherwise the car's interior would look like a war zone......

"I do see however that though car audio enthusiasts have appreciative goals similar to ours, their methods, use of components, and environment is quite different."

I've never heard a competition car system that I thought sounded as good as a decent inexpensive home system. (Or any car system, for that matter..... I think the interior glass reflections might be the big culprit here.) Spectacular, yes. But not close to faithful to a good recording.

Most of those who I knew were into competition car audio were into a VERY limited range of music..... Mostly rap..... And audio test tracks.... (They're interested in Beethoven or the Beatles like I'm interested in basket weaving.) They're into body-crushing bass, and that's about it....... They're not interested in any home system because the bass simply isn't "powerful" enough.

As far as I'm concerned, high-end audio and competition car audio are two totally different hobbies, like being a musician and being a scratch DJ are two totally different hobbies. It would be unfair to even compare the two.

 

RE: Good Point!, posted on April 18, 2017 at 15:13:15
Jonesy
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 I was incorrect about the 2 judges. It would not be simultaneous.

As for the rest, the SPL group, which represents the majority, and which you are familiar with, are not the group I am referring to.

The fellow at my office was in the SQ group. He does not listen to rap.

If striving for the same goals is two totally different hobbies, fine, I just wanted to point out the similarities in the SQ group for the sake of interest.

Cheers!

Jonesy


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: I just spoke to a car audio buff here at the office..., posted on May 7, 2017 at 13:47:43
sev1
Audiophile

Posts: 6
Location: California
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 In my previous car I worked pretty hard to setup a good sounding system. The basic thing you have to realize that mobile audio and home audio have totally different problems to solve. Because of that the end results and path to get there are totally different.

First and foremost, modern systems must have a multi channel DSP. It goes without saying that the number one obstacle to overcome in a mobile system is the car environment. Seating position, size of space, speaker locations, reflections and ambient noise all make it impossible to achieve what can be achieved in a dedicated listening room. With the use of DSP and individual amp channels for each speaker you can control things better than you would believe.

It's also much harder to get it right in a car. For that reason I'd highly suggest using some of the really good installers out there. It's possible to DIY (check out DIY Mobile Audio) but for most, it's worth ththe cost to get a really good pro to install it.

The real reason I think mobile systems have value is the time you have to listen. I commute 1.25 hours one way each day. That's waaaay more time then I would ever have to listen to my home system. This made it worth the effort to improve my system. Will it ever sound like a decent dedicated home system. Probably not in terms of imaging and soundstage. But you be surprised how tonally correct a lot of these systems get.



It's not for everyone and it's a lot of work, but like home audio there a group of fans out there who put a lot of effort into getting it right. Just like I wouldn't judge home audio based on the sound of an Onkyo Mini System, I wouldn't judge high quality mobile audio on the sound of upgraded actors systems.

 

RE: I just spoke to a car audio buff here at the office..., posted on May 8, 2017 at 07:56:41
Jonesy
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
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  Since: March 1, 2018
 The fellow at the office worked closely with one of the local installers here in town (Winnipeg, Canada), but that was around '96. They basically used their ears and whatever measuring tools were available at the time. In Greenville Carolina at the IASCA, he placed 9th in SQ and the installer placed 1st in SQ and 2nd in SQ+1.

The installer had beat out a 2 year reigning champ who had a BMW with tube amps and remote laser aimed tweeters.

Definitely much more to work with these days as you mentioned. I imagine the criteria at the competitions are even more particular as a result. But it's nice that the knowledge carries over to production vehicles, and vice versa.

I could see spending a lot of money on a automobile system. Pick your poison I guess.

As an aside, the other day I heard a motorcycle a few lanes over with an impressive sound system.

Nice to see people interested in quality and not just SPL.

Cheers!

Jonesy




"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: I just spoke to a car audio buff here at the office..., posted on May 8, 2017 at 08:17:26
sev1
Audiophile

Posts: 6
Location: California
Joined: May 1, 2017
 This guy is the owner of one of the best shops in the Nor Cal area (probably in the US as well) and the build on his Mercedes Wagon. It's a lot of work, but you'd be surprised how many people actually do get this level of work done on their vehicles.

FYI - The link is pic HEAVY

 

Wow! Impressive!!!, posted on May 8, 2017 at 11:12:00
Jonesy
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Posts: 3156
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018
 That's a lot of work. And done with such precision and components.

Cheers!

Jonesy


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: I just spoke to a car audio buff here at the office..., posted on May 12, 2017 at 11:05:23
bondmanp
Audiophile

Posts: 578
Location: Central NJ
Joined: September 11, 2002
 I am now driving a 2003 Subaru Outback VDC with the McIntosh stereo. I know, it is a Clarion system (Clarion owned McIntosh back then), but it was designed by McIntosh. It sounds great at lower speeds, very clean, deep bass, good detail reproduction, and a bit of soundstage. But at highway speeds, the wind noise ruins everything. The motor is quieter than other Outbacks from 2003 (more insulation for engine noise was part of the VDC package). I have 6-disc in-dash changer, which I love. The only thing they messed up was setting the crossover to the sub too low. The door speakers can't handle the amount of bass they get.

Now, though, it looks like I am getting a 2008 Infiniti EX-35. A quieter car, yes, but it has a Bose stereo, the kind you can't replace. I will give it a try, and it does have the "Driver's Sound Stage" feature, but I am not optimistic. It lacks the changer, and instead has a "music bank" feature which rips CDs to a hard drive - using MP3 codec - oy. So, I might just get a little FiiO hi-res player and copy my music from my server onto SD cards. But I can't pass up the car; it's too good a deal.

 

Honda Civic modified, posted on November 16, 2017 at 22:12:46
DanWilson
Audiophile

Posts: 229
Location: Longisland NY
Joined: December 9, 2002



Honda Civic Modified

 

RE: Honda Civic modified, posted on November 17, 2017 at 08:26:21
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15519
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Nice pic!
Excellent stories -All.

 

RE: I just spoke to a car audio buff here at the office..., posted on November 29, 2017 at 21:04:14
gordguide
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Joined: January 20, 2002
 I really enjoy Car Audio. I generally drive used, older vehicles which are simple to modify, create a budget, and try to get the best sound I can that way. But the fun part is no two systems I've built are the same, it's fun to experiment with different ways to an end. Compared to the home system, which is more-or-less static with few significant changes over time, it's where creativity comes into play. Plus, good sound on the road makes long drives enjoyable, well worth the effort.

Modern (say, 2012 and newer) vehicles with the Premium Sound System option can sound from decent to outstanding, depending on the model. The real good stuff is in the luxury vehicles, but even the more mundane models do much better today than in the past. Finally. But many buyers don't check that option and if buying off the lot, often not installed. The base sound systems are pretty rugged so nothing new there.

And they had better, since the Audio System is now fully integrated into the Car's second computer (not the engine CPU, but what Chrysler calls the "Body and Frame Computer"). So it's difficult to impossible to alter.

 

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