General Asylum

General audio topics that don't fit into specific categories.

Return to General Asylum

Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

Cable differences. A survey for all.

24.131.173.221
Posted on March 6, 1999 at 10:24:21
Bryan F.


 
~~~With the great cable debate brewing. I was wondering if some would be interested in giving their opinion on a few questions on this subject. However, I would like to limit the input to those who have tried different cables in their system or a system where they felt that they could pick out any differences if any. Or to those individuals who have researched this subject subjectivly(but have also at least tried a few first hand) As I don't wish to include those that have never tried different cables. Finding that a lot of audio arguements and opinions are based on people who have never tried/auditioned different cables/equiptment. I hope this does not offend anyone.

1.) Do you believe in audible differences in cables of A) the same guage and B) different guages?

2.) Do you believe that science can prove that A) there are no differences or B) that there are differences?

3.) Have you ever done any blind tests to determine any differences? With same and or different guages.

4.) Do you think that if there are differences that the cable itself has an impact due to various reasons. Such as guage of conductors, number of conductors, size of conductors, type of conductors, purity of conductors, skin effect, shielding, termination......

5.) If you believe that there are differences do you believe that it is system dependant. With some differences being more clearly audible on systems of a higher caliber.

6.) Do you believe that companies are just milking people of money? That they are just scamming us and basing their position solely on marketing ploys and making profits.

7.) Do you believe that everything in the signal path effects the sound? Wether it is passive or active.

note: Please try and state your position if possible. Including any data/proof/experiments/trials.....please just don't state that there are no differences. Please try and go into detail even if it is just opinion based on personal experiances. I'm looking for a Why?


~~~Thanks for any input on this subject. This is obviously not scientific research. This is just to find opinions on this matter. Opinions from people who have experimented and or toyed with cables and actually developed an opinion. Or agian those who have researched this subject from an audio standpoint. Or in other words realizing that an audio signal is being carried by the cable. I realize that some out there like Mtrycrafts will say this is miss-information. I am merely tring to get some input from audiophiles and am not using it for anything more then to see what others think. Thanks once again. Happy listening. I hope that we all can truly find our audio utopia. So we may get closer to the music.

 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
Interesting., posted on March 6, 1999 at 10:55:57
Audiophilander


 
I hope you haven't openned Pandora's Box. (Just take a peek at message #115798 at the AR site).

Not having an engineering background I don't feel qualified enough to answer your questions from a scientific standpoint. Simply put: I've heard differences between cables changed between amps and speakers. There may or may not be a scientifically rational explanation for differences in tonal balance, etc., but I'm open minded and look forward to any reseach which can establish what's really going on.

AuPh

 

Re: Interesting., posted on March 6, 1999 at 11:07:49
Bryan F.


 
~~~Unfortunetly I was part of that particular thread. Where Mtrycrafts keeps telling me of how I am spreading wrong information. When he hasn't offered any proof that proves his theory. Just proof that backs up his opinion. There is adifference. I believe that if they make a difference to you go for it. If they don't thats fine. However one should respect anothers opinion and not just tell others that they are basically full of it. Thats not very scientific. As for now there is no proof either way IMHO. So I believe that it is all opinion for now.
~~~Thanks for your input. As you need not have an electrical or engineering background to answer. Just an opinion based on experiance is all that is needed. Thanks.

 

Re: Cable differences. A survey for all., posted on March 6, 1999 at 11:40:46
Oakroot


 
To answer your questions:

1. Yes to both A and B - I've heard differences in cables
2. No to A and Yes to B
3. Yes, but not double blind
4. Have no idea why there are differences but some of the reasons you gave may apply.
5. Yes, with some systems it is easier to hear cable differences than in other systems - though I am not sure if "caliber" is the right measure. It seems that system interaction has more to do with identifying sonic attributes of components than what we think of as higher caliber or quality.
6. Yes companies are milking the audiophile with ludicrously high prices for their cables products (I do not support those manufacturers). Yes they are scamming us based on marketing ploys and their own opinions. However, that does not mean that wires do not sound different - just that the differences in wire are more often a different set of strengths and weaknesses than real and true improvements in sonic qualities.
7. Yes to both.


 

Hmmmmmmm....., posted on March 6, 1999 at 12:01:53
Rod M


 
This should prove to be an interesting topic. I suppose I should say upfront that I think cables are icing on the cake and that hi-end cables can be/are tone controls. So as to your questions:

1.) Do you believe in audible differences in cables of A) the same guage and B) different guages?

A is a tough one. I haven't experimented enough to really say. However, geometry and construction differences would certainly point to differences even in the same gauge.

B. Certainly. I doubt even the most ardent objectivists would argue that length and gauge are relevant issues.

One issue with cables that I think leads to a lot of heated, circular debate is the tendency of many newbies to look at cables to *fix* system problems. Take the typical brightness problem for example, some look to cable when they should be looking at a CD player upgrade perhaps to correct the problem at it's source. Then you get another newbie over stating the differences with XYZ cable and away we go.

2.) Do you believe that science can prove that A) there are no differences or B) that there are differences?

Trying to trip us up huh? No question that science can measure differences. I do have preferences and believe that differences do exist. Passing an ABX test with 2 very close cables is a different issue. OTOH, science has proven differences in say 24 gauge vs 12 gauge wire for a long length of cable. Those are easy to distinguish. Subtle differences are more difficult. Designing the right test is the hard part. That's where long term listening and then removing or changing back becomes more useful in evaluating whether differences exist or are better or worse.

I haven't done any blind tests so I'll skip that one.

4.) Do you think that if there are differences that the cable itself has an impact due to various reasons. Such as guage of conductors, number of conductors, size of conductors, type of conductors, purity of conductors, skin effect, shielding, termination......

No question that all these factors affect cables along with geometry. Measurement of LCR would pretty much show that. I'm not to sure about skin effect, that one gets away from me a bit.

5.) If you believe that there are differences do you believe that it is system dependant. With some differences being more clearly audible on systems of a higher caliber.

Absolutely. As the system becomes more transparent, every change becomes more noticeable. It seems that tube gear is even more sensitive to tweaking/changes. I think this is clearly a major bone of contention that seems to divide folks. With mid-fi gear, the cable thing a moot point (spend the money on better gear not fancy cables). As you move up the chain toward hi-end gear, the system interaction becomes a greater factor.

6.) Do you believe that companies are just milking people of money? That they are just scamming us and basing their position solely on marketing ploys and making profits.

Some might be. $5,000 cables seem a bit high priced and I have a hard time believing that this price relates well to the actual cost. How much more does it cost to make a $200 cable vs a $500 cable? Some companies may use prices points to push folks into more profitable cables. But if you've got a $20K system, then a $1,000 cable might seem inexpensive to you and you might prefer it. It's all relative to where you are in this wonderful hobby.

At say under $300, I can see pretty clear value in many offerings. The products are higher purity, better construction (sometimes), cool looking and have nifty connectors. All those things cost money and in low production it becomes more expensive. Harmonic Technology is one that comes to mind that appears to offer a good value that one can see (if not hear) and is one I'm looking to try at some point.

7.) Do you believe that everything in the signal path effects the sound? Whether it is passive or active.

Of course. Otherwise we only need an ABX equalizer and bang, equalize our Bose Lifestyle systems into tube heaven, hehehe!

But again, this is highly system dependant. With a typical $200 receiver, maybe an equalizer would actually improve it. Certainly a hi-end CD player might help but is a waste as are fancy cables in a low-end system.

Once you have speakers that are transparent enough to respond to better feeding, changes become increasing more noticeable. I think this is the point where less becomes more and where careful equipment and cable matching and synergism do make the difference between a fine system and a truly great one.

Now whether the end result is accurate vs. euphonically pleasing to the owner is yet another question and an interesting one at that.



 

Re: Cable differences. A survey for all., posted on March 6, 1999 at 14:11:37
David Aiken


 
1. I've heard differences. I haven't engaged in testing that would let me say yes or no to A but gauge changes have been present when I've changed cables in my system.

2. B - you can measure differences between cables. The hard part is always linking the measured differences to the perceived differences.

3. I haven't engaged in that sort of testing.

4. I think all those things, and probably others, could possibly have an effect. I don't know which are the most important - see 2 above.

5. Yes, it is system dependent but I'll add a caveat. Your question is framed in terms of hearing more as equipment is upgraded. I think the issue is the transperency of the system, and you can affect that in many ways. Vibration control and room acoustics treatments will improve the transperency of an existing system and I believe they also can help to make changes with cables and interconnects more apparent.

6. I think cable companies price on what the market will bear, but I also think that the cost of dearer cables is in part a result of the higher costs associated with manufacturing small runs of the item rather than the larger runs associated with cheaper cables which will naturally sell in bigger quantities. Then there is also the fact that advertising costs get recovered from the sales of the smaller runs as well, at a proportionately higher cost per unit. Possibly a lot of the advertising content simply extols obvious differences in construction because those are physically apparent, but I'd hesitate to accept the advertising claims as a true, or at least a full, account of the reasons for any perceived differences.

7. Yes - everything in the signal chain impacts on the resultant sound, as do things outside the signal chain (vibration control, acoustic treatments, level of inebriation, etc, etc, etc.)

David Aiken



 

Re: Cable differences. A survey for all., posted on March 6, 1999 at 15:21:47
Mike K


 
1. Yes and Yes
2. Yes and Yes
3. Yes and Yes
4. Yes
5. Yes - a higher resolution system will reveal more of the
differences between 2 cables.
6. Yes - the manufacturers are spending huge sums on advertising
in order to entice us to buy their ungodly expensive product.
I cannot believe that the manufacturing cost of the typical
one meter interconnect cable is more than a few dollars (less
than $10).
7. Yes - every component in the chain affects the sound, in one
way or another.

General comment: The law of diminishing returns kicks in rather
soon with cable, I think. Yes, you can hear differences between
two cables but (assuming that you are dealing with 2 hight quality
cables) do the differences mean that one is superior to the other?
For the most part, I think not. Since we have no absolute standard
against which to compare, I think the wise person spends a reasonable
amount on cable, and then forgets about them. Personally, I use
Audioquest Ruby interconnects and Kimber 4TC speaker cable. I have
auditioned more expensive cables that sounded different from what I
use, but was it better? I only thought it was different, and saw
no reason to purchase.

 

Re: Interesting., posted on March 6, 1999 at 17:22:14
mtrycrafts


 
You should really do your homework before you make unfounded allegations and unproven claims. You cannot prove a negative, so there is no way I can prove that there is no audible difference as that would be proving a negative. However, there is no scientific proof for the positive, AND, there is certainly losts of evidence against the positive hypothesis, whether you accept it or not will not change what is know and the data that exists. So, untill you have proof of the hypothesis just express a preference without making claims that can be tested.
The other problem with your claims is that you do not test in a double blind test, hence your result are, well, not believable.

 

Re: Interesting., posted on March 6, 1999 at 17:28:27
mtrycrafts


 
The box has been open from day one back some decades ago when someone claimed a difference without doing proper tests. And, the box was shut a long time ago except to those who refuse to give up on their faith, due to who knows what. Cables are big business in the consumer market. That is one reson wire companies will not conduct tests as they already know what there is to know, or are really ignorant to knowledge that is available. Some cables sound different but sufficent gage doesn't. You don't need to be an engineer, just an open mined and a willingness to do some serious reading and not hope that some new knowledge in the future will reveail the miracle. There is no wire miracle, nor mano others tweak miracles. I wish there was, then we would not spend time on this.
I have posted in the past a starting point but obviously that does not interes you or many others.

 

Hello Mtrycrafts!, posted on March 6, 1999 at 17:51:07
Bryan F.


 

>>>So, untill you have proof of the hypothesis just express a
preference without making claims that can be tested.<<<

Maybe you should listen to your own advice. I also never stated that cables differ to everyone. I always suggest an audition of everything. As some say there is no difference between different amplifiers. I understand and respect your OPINION. However your lack of respect to anyone that offers their opinion is not welcome to many. I'm glad you don't buy into the cable theory. However I do. I believe in differences as I have heard differences. Just as I have with Black Diamond Racing Cones, just as I have with different amplifiers, just as I have with different speakers. While changing certain components has a bigger impact. I have noticed differences. So to me they are worth it. As even you can't prove that there are not differences. Please prove it if you can. But my SET's are loving the silver internal wire, transformers, and what we are talking about here silver cables. Also the point of this post is to look at other peoples opinions and experiances. I am not trying to prove anything. Read my original post please.

 

Greetings Mtry., posted on March 6, 1999 at 18:02:36
Tom S.


 
Welcome to the Asylum. I am quite sure you feel that we have named this new site appropriately. Enjoy your stay.

Tom S.

 

Re: Hello Mtrycrafts!, posted on March 6, 1999 at 18:06:43
mtrycrafts


 
It is not the perception but how you do your testing that causes these perceptions. You don't seem to accept the fact that sighted testing has very little meanig. Yes, it is important for a preference decision. However, to find out if there really is an audible difference, you need to do a double blind test. Just ask JJ who has shown up here. He certainly is qualified to comment on the value of blind testing and the lack of use of sighted testing when you want to know if there is indeed an audible difference between two components. I just didn't pull this out of thin air, but from doing a bit of reading. Reading of good journal stuff. This information is there for the taking and for the curious. So, while you have listened, it had no controls that I can tell.

 

Re: Hello Mtrycrafts!, posted on March 6, 1999 at 19:49:00
Sherwood


 
Greetings to you, Mtry,

Welcome aboard.

Now I must go off and explore some double-blind reading !

regards
john

 

Re: Cable differences. A survey for all., posted on March 6, 1999 at 20:18:42
nataraj


 
>I hope this does not offend anyone.

Hmmm ...

1.) Do you believe in audible differences in cables of A) the same guage and B) different guages?

Mostly no ... mostly no (if above 14). If cable manufacturers put boxes and deliberatly increase l/c/r ... may be yes. Also, I say mostly because I beleive the differences are very subtle, if any.

2.) Do you believe that science can prove that A) there are no differences or B) that there are differences?

No. Yes. ( you can't prove a negative). If lots of experiments to prove the positive fails ... needle of suspicion points to the negative ( much like ghosts / UFO / supernatural ).

3.) Have you ever done any blind tests to determine any differences? With same and or different guages.

No. Since I don't hear any differences sighted ...

4.) Do you think that if there are differences that the cable itself has an impact due to various reasons. Such as guage of conductors, number of conductors, size of conductors, type of conductors, purity of conductors, skin effect, shielding, termination......

Yes, but not in audio frequencies.

5.) If you believe that there are differences do you believe that it is system dependant. With some differences being more clearly audible on systems of a higher caliber.

Possibly.

6.) Do you believe that companies are just milking people of money? That they are just scamming us and basing their position solely on marketing ploys and making profits.

Yes. In that, the prices are way above manufacturing + r&d costs. I suppose margins / overheads / retailer margins are very high. They are selling not cables ... but a dream ... a dream that somehow the performace can be improved buy buying more expensive things.

Personally, I've decided not to buy any more branded cables till I reach a point where I don't know where my next upgrade is coming from.

7.) Do you believe that everything in the signal path effects the sound? Wether it is passive or active.

Yes. But some are more audible than others.



 

Re: Cable differences. A survey for all., posted on March 6, 1999 at 22:08:51
Hyperion


 
1. Yep and Yep
2. Nope and Yep
3. Yep but not double blind
4. Yep, everything matters down to the dielectric, cover and damping materials used in the cable, level of tightness of termination, as well as any material that is in physical contact with the cable.
5. Certainly. The higher the resolution of a system, the easier it is to hear differences between cables. And cables, like any other component (and yes, cables should be classified as components because the system will not function w/o em) are very system dependent. Still, there are cables that just plain suck regardless of where they are used ...
6. Definitely. Cables are overpriced. Period.
7. Yep. Even the things that are not in the signal path like the component chassis, feet, rack etc never fail to manage to let their presence be heard ...



 

Re: Hello Mtrycrafts!, posted on March 6, 1999 at 23:15:07
Bryan F.


 
~~~The bling testing that I have done was between cables of different guages. Not to mention that one of the pairs were silver and of a heavy guage. Grant you my friend swapped the cables and even didn't do so a few times and I noted a difference between them. I always listen and compare. As I don't buy into anything. I have yet to venture into power cord land and when I do I am only going to buy 10-12 guage cords. Obviously much bigger than what I am currently using for the most part. This I know will effect the sound of my components. Especially my amplifiers. I will probaly DIY it.

 

Re: Cable differences. A survey for all., posted on March 7, 1999 at 00:24:40
Jim Willis


 
I guess that going into this one I would generally say that (1) components (active or passive) that are different MAY have audible differences (but the differences may not be audible to everyone in all systems); (2) that it is really difficult to isolate the differences of a single component since all components tend to interact (i.e., affect the behaviour of) other components within a single system; and (3) that the whole thing tends to be preference/memory based since the goal is (should be?) to come as close to source as possible.

That said:

1. Maybe, usually
2. Who cares. Not really a "scientific" endeavour. In the realm of product development.
3. Yes. Heard differences in one system, not in another. Same wires, same speakers, other components different.
4. I suspect that the most significant parameters are RCL and their effect on performance on other components. Would not completely discount the other ones - I find the arguments interesting but not very compelling. I tend to be an Occam's razor sort of lad.
5. Well, as noted earlier I do think it tends to be system specific. But not in a higher/lower caliber sort of way. More like things that are load sensitive or which have a wider input bandwidth that output bandwidth might exhibit more wire effect. Of course one would need a system revealing enough to hear such effects.
6. Absolutely. Even if wires sound different, which sounds closest to live unamplified music in my system? (Beats l'enfer out of me!) On the other hand, there's no reason at all to have nice wires in a system. It's just not where I prefer to toss my $$$$$$$.
7. Everything in the signal path MAY affect sound. The only way to know for sure is to listen.

 

Re: Cable differences. A survey for all., posted on March 7, 1999 at 03:27:29
DonK


 
1.) Do you believe in audible differences in cables of A) the same guage and B) different guages?

Yes to both A and B although I to my ears 12 gauge OFC copper wire is about as good as you can get for speaker cable. I think there's much more difference in line level interconnects and even then you can find good cheap cables that perform as well as some VERY expensive ones.

2.) Do you believe that science can prove that A) there are no differences or B) that there are differences?

Yes to B)

3.) Have you ever done any blind tests to determine any differences? With same and or different guages.

Yes, all the time.

4.) Do you think that if there are differences that the cable itself has an impact due to various reasons. Such as guage of conductors, number of conductors, size of
conductors, type of conductors, purity of conductors, skin effect, shielding, termination......

Yes...I think all of those factors CAN contribute to differences but not necessarilly all will.

5.) If you believe that there are differences do you believe that it is system dependant. With some differences being more clearly audible on systems of a higher
caliber.

Possibly, but IMO if it's a significant difference you can easily hear it on a regular mid-fi system.

6.) Do you believe that companies are just milking people of money? That they are just scamming us and basing their position solely on marketing ploys and making
profits.

YES>.......DEFINITELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

7.) Do you believe that everything in the signal path effects the sound? Wether it is passive or active.

Again....YES>...............DEFINITELY!!!!!! I think that what IS NOT in the signal path is what usually makes the biggest difference. The simpler the signal path the better the sound, IMO.



 

Re: Cable differences. A survey for all., posted on March 7, 1999 at 06:03:28
Bryan F.


 
>>>you can't prove a negative<<<

There is a debate regarding cables. One side states that there are differences and the other side that their aren't. Both sides do have a valid "opinion". However which can actually be proven by science is to be determined. Science does allow for one to prove wether or not something is happening. To prove just a negative is impossible but only without a positve and an arguement.

 

Re: Cable differences. A survey for all., posted on March 7, 1999 at 09:18:56
Biff


 
Disclaimer:
I am an electrical engineer. As such, it has been pointed out to me on several occasions that I am, by default, in one of the two camps on this subject. I don't really care about this but if you read my response to these questions please keep in mind that they are my opinions only. I am not trying to irritate anyone and as unbelievable as it sounds I do try to keep an open mind.

1.) Do you believe in audible differences in cables of A) the same guage and B) different guages?

A) Don't know, have not measured gauge when testing cables.
B) Yes. I have swapped cables and heard differences.

2.) Do you believe that science can prove that A) there are no differences or B) that there are differences?

A) No
B) Yes, there should always be measurable differences in cables. This includes cables of the same length and and manufacturers batch. I expect the difference in this case to be small but it should be measurable (although the differences should not be audible).

3.) Have you ever done any blind tests to determine any differences? With same and or different guages.

No, I don't consider this necessary for my own, in home, use and since I pay the bills and I am harming no one else by doing it this way I don't use blind tests. I am not happy that cables make a difference because it has COST ME LOTS OF MONEY but I consider it a necessary expense.

4.) Do you think that if there are differences that the cable itself has an impact due to various reasons. Such as guage of
conductors, number of conductors, size of conductors, type of conductors, purity of conductors, skin effect, shielding,
termination......

Yes. You left out geometry of conductors and I am sure there are other factors as well, but I agree that if there are differences in sound qualities there will be reasons for the differences. Even if we can't figure out just what they are for any given situation.

5.) If you believe that there are differences do you believe that it is system dependant. With some differences being more
clearly audible on systems of a higher caliber.

Yes, I believe there are system dependent differences. Can't speak for "higher caliber" systems.

6.) Do you believe that companies are just milking people of money? That they are just scamming us and basing their
position solely on marketing ploys and making profits.

caveat emptor I believe the mark up on cables is larger it needs to be and I trust these companies to come up with creative ways to try to separate money from my wallet. With these things in mind I tend to be sceptical about benefits or improvements based on cables.

7.) Do you believe that everything in the signal path effects the sound? Wether it is passive or active.

I don't agree with this as a blanket statement. It is possible to transmit digital data without loss.

Oops.... just read the bottom part. I don't consider myself an audiophile, just an enthusiast. Oh well, I typed it so I will post it.

Happy Listening

 

Re: Cable differences. A survey for all., posted on March 7, 1999 at 10:04:10
nataraj


 
>Science does allow for one to prove wether or not something is happening. >To prove just a negative is impossible but only without a positve and an >arguement.

Are you saying 'no differences' can be proven or not ?

What I mean is that you can't prove something does not exist / happen ( since that would need infinite number of tests ). But if the hypothese is that differences don't exist, it can be disproven by showing differences. So negatives can be dis-proven and positive ( 'some cables are different' ) can be proven. If the poitive hypothesis is 'all cables are different', again that can't be proven.

That is assuming, we need experimental proof and not theoretical.

 

Re: Cable differences. A survey for all., posted on March 7, 1999 at 10:11:50
norm strong


 
I have tried cables from Monster, Nordost down to #26 telephone wire. Neither I nor anyone else listening could tell the slightest difference. Of course, with the #26 wire the level is a tiny bit lower, simply because of the resistance.

 

I agree and think..., posted on March 7, 1999 at 10:26:24
Bryan F.


 
....we are getting caught up in the semantics of each others posts.

 

Re: Cable differences. A survey for all., posted on March 7, 1999 at 10:29:42
Bryan F.


 
~~~Thanks and sorry for the audiophile statement. I tried being politically correct when posting. As I am looking for opinions from people who have experimented in general.

 

What were the..., posted on March 7, 1999 at 10:31:15
Bryan F.


 
....associated components used? Which Nordost?

 

Thanks Brian, posted on March 7, 1999 at 11:20:37
Biff


 
No problem, I thought that's what your intent was. You can't please everyone all the time, especially in this politically correct day and age. I am not really a tweaker so I don't see myself as an audiophile. Experimenting with cables and interconnects is kind of a necessary evil for me and spending money on cables and interconnects that I could have used to buy CD's is painful. Oh well, whats an enthusiast to do? Grin and bear it I guess. {:-)

 

Re: Cable differences. A survey for all., posted on March 7, 1999 at 13:51:30
Oakroot


 
If you and your friends could not hear any differences in the sonic character of wire on your system - that's OK with me. Be happy with #26 telephone wire as your speaker cable. I have heard significant differences in the sonic attributes of various cables in my system. The question is: why do you fell the need to tell me? Answer the questions (1-7) that were posed by Bryan and tell him.

 

Re: Thanks Brian, posted on March 7, 1999 at 13:55:46
Oakroot


 
Oooohhh! I'm not a tweaker either - I guess I'm not an audiophile. Hey, wait a minute - I still prefer vinyl to CD - maybe there is hope for me after all.... NAAAAHHHHHH! ;-)

 

Re: Thanks Brian, posted on March 7, 1999 at 14:10:50
Bryan F.


 
Hey, I'm looking at getting into vinyl as we speak!

 

{:-)):))-))), posted on March 7, 1999 at 14:16:37
Biff


 
) )) ))) ))))))))

 

Forgot to add...ROTFLOL...Thanks Oakroot (nt), posted on March 7, 1999 at 14:19:06
Biff


 


 

Re: Thanks Brian, posted on March 7, 1999 at 14:53:17
Oakroot


 
Another man on his way to sonic bliss! :-)

 

Re: Thanks Brian, posted on March 8, 1999 at 08:27:19
Dave B


 
nah!! the fact is, you guys haven't heard a good cd player or you haven't spent the money on a good one yet!

Cheers! ;-))))

 

Re: Thanks Brian, posted on March 8, 1999 at 09:23:03
Bryan F.


 
What do you consider a good digital front end?

 

Re: Thanks Brian, posted on March 8, 1999 at 11:39:37
Oakroot


 
I forget Dave, which generational example of the "perfect sound forever" technical wonder do you own? I kind of lose track around these boards - so many digiholics trying to coax, coerce or force musical sound out of there digital systems by changing which "perfect sound forever" machine they use - its kind of confusing on an old guy like me. :-)

 

First....., posted on March 8, 1999 at 12:48:58
Dave B


 
If it isn't obvious to you and I want to be very clear about this......I'm pulling Ol' Oak's leg(he would know that, since we have personally met each other).

Secondly, your question **What do you consider a good digital front end? **
Hows'about let's agree to constrain that to the cd format(i.e. not DVD). There are a few cd format designs/products that I think convey music, as well as vinyl. The problem is that, that conveyance costs about 2x to do in cd, as it does in vinyl. The cd format has advantages in dynamics and s/n areas, not to mention that when you're dragging a hard "rock" through a vinyl groove, you're destroying that media every time you use it. Have you ever considered what the force is, of the 1.5 gms on 2 miniscule contact patches???? I'd wager it's 1000's of lbs/sq in. I'd even guess that in a micro view, the vinyl momentarily liquifies when the stylus traverses the groove. But, the real cost of implementing cd audibly correctly is in all the "Band-Aid" fixes the current designer has to do, to solve the SONY/Philips screw-ups when they agreed on a format and standards originally that didn't take certain "things" in to account. Personally, I feel my KPS-20i does as well(or better) than the best vinyl systems I've heard but.....at a price. Then, keep in mind I've eliminated an analog gain stage(no analog pre) to additionally color or veil the recording on the cd.

So, I've listened to Oak's Gyrodec and appreciate it's virtue, it's damn fine sounding but I do think the phono section in his SP-10 pre plays a role in this too. I think SOTA music reproduction can be had in either vinyl or cd, it's just a matter of how you implement it and what "warts" or tradeoffs you want to deal with. So, anyone saying "vinyl is better", clearly, is biased and prefers those tradeoffs of the vinyl format vs. cd and I suspect it's because they haven't heard what cd is "really" capable of in their system, if they had only spent twice as much money. (I'm half-joking.....I hope you realize it)

 

Oak, Ol' Buddy....read my post to Bryan (nt), posted on March 8, 1999 at 12:57:09
Dave B


 
.

 

Re: First....., posted on March 8, 1999 at 15:06:22
Bryan F.


 
~~~I realize you were joking but did want to know what you thought was a good cd player/digital front end. A few friends and I believe that some things sound better on vinyl and others on CD(many of my friends are vinyl heads but do listen and have good digital set-ups). It depends on the recording. Also I am trying to decide wether to invest $5000+ in a tt/phone pre set-up or upgrading my digital front end. Which is currently a Sonic Frontiers SFCD-1. I was thinking about a CEC TL-2X and I am undecided on the DAC at this time. However I really don't wish to upgrade with talks of the super cd and all. Ohhhhhh who knows anymore. Thought Vinyl could be fun and I already know of it's pluses and minuses so.......

 

""Perfect Sound Forever"", posted on March 8, 1999 at 19:05:59
jj


 
That bilious line was written by somebody in marketing. I know very well what the folks at Philips Labs thought of it (I asked them point-blank when I read it), and also what some of the senior people at Sony thought of it (it was a very mild-mannered statement that it might be a bit much, which is something from an older gentleman in sr. management in Japan).

Sometimes marketing is scary. I think it will be a long time before whoever wrote that one lives it down.

 

Re: First....., posted on March 8, 1999 at 19:48:31
Dave B


 
Bryan,

I haven't heard the SFCD-1 but I did hear the CEC TL-2x unit used with a Camelot Uther feeding a Pass Aleph pre & Aleph 2 m/b's driving Gallo Ref's. I didn't notice the cables connecting everything but it sounded fairly interesting but overall, I still like my system better.

Re: your decision on upgrading cd or not to, it depends on what investment you have in software. I think if you have a considerable cd collection, the answer is easy. I think we can agree that if cd is done right, with great recordings, it's awesome.....regardless of what the detractors say.

I am considering implementing vinyl(again) in the future but in a separate system, that will probably be tube driven.

 

Re: Greetings Mtry., posted on March 8, 1999 at 21:33:59
mtrycrafts


 
Why thank you.

 

Re: Hello Mtrycrafts!, posted on March 8, 1999 at 21:38:00
mtrycrafts


 
What gage of wires did you test?
There is no connection between the size of the power cable and the sound coming out. What would make it sound different? Hope you don't think the voltage drop caused by 18ga wire. O r the current capacity of 18ga.

 

Re: First....., posted on March 8, 1999 at 23:55:22
Oakroot


 
Now do you see what I mean - here you go touting your analog equaling Krell and still your aren't happy (medical diagnosis: severe neurosis brought on by diginerdia) and already considering the upgrade path to obtain digital nirvana. Put your $$$ into a decent vinyl rig and escape that madness. If you do go analog - you'll have to eat a lot of crow when you start posting about the joy and fulfillment you've finally experienced. You've wandered in the desert for 40+ years now - I have shown you the promised land, a land flowing with milk and honey. All you have to do is cross over and enter it. :-)

 

Okay....., posted on March 9, 1999 at 04:19:06
Dave B


 
See what I mean....waxing incessently, biased and never heard a good cd player.

Oh Brother!

:-)

 

Re: Hello Mtrycrafts!, posted on March 9, 1999 at 05:26:35
Bryan F.


 
I haven't played with power cords yet.....I can't anwer this one. I have only played with speakerwire/interconnects.

 

Re: Cable differences. A survey for all., posted on March 9, 1999 at 11:11:36
Andrej


 
1.)A) same gauge? yes B) YES
2.)A) no B) yes
3.)yes, always
4.)gauge? yes! number of conductors? yes! size of conductors? yes! type of conductors?(if you mean copper-silver) no! purity of conductors? no! skin effect? YES!!!!! shielding? depends on construction-yes! termination? YES!!!!! distance between conductors? YES!!!!!
5.)yes! not, necessary!
6.)yes they are! Truth is there is no perfect cable - not possible to build one!
7.)YES! Power supplyes are also in the signal path!
I have a lot of proofs but my english is very poor so it may be hard to explain. Ask anyway.

Andrej

 

Re: Hello Mtrycrafts!, posted on March 9, 1999 at 13:48:59
mtrycrafts


 
The first question was related to the speaker cables. What gage did you try and perceived a difference?

 

Re: Okay....., posted on March 9, 1999 at 21:52:27
Oakroot


 
I can't hear one until they build one - maybe they will someday but I'm not holding my breath. Gotcha!!! :-0

 

Wait !, posted on March 10, 1999 at 06:01:06
Dave B


 
Are you saying you've heard all the high end cd players in your system???

Nay, I think not!

You're missing out, Ol'Pal (especially on a high end used bargain cdp and extra-especially with your music collection).

and remind me, was your cd player a Denon or Rotel??? This is your reference? No wonder you like vinyl so much. hmmmmmmm......

Touche' :-)))

 

Re: ""Perfect Sound Forever"", posted on March 10, 1999 at 09:58:13
mtrycrafts


 
I wonder if 'he/she' was thinking that the digits would not change over repeated playback over time?

 

Re: Wait !, posted on March 10, 1999 at 11:16:07
Oakroot


 
It was a CAL Icon - miserable thing. No I haven't heard every high end CDP in my system. But, I have heard a fair amount of them in other systems to know that I'm not impressed. I can't understand how all this supposedly SOTA gear can sound so unmusical. I'll just have to come to Chicago to hear done right (I actually did hear one high end system at the Tweak Shop here in Santa Rosa - I think he was using a Thorens DAC, not sure of the transport - that was almost passable). Cheers.

 

Progress, posted on March 10, 1999 at 12:45:44
Dave B


 
hehehehe.....okay, it was a CAL Icon.

Okay, so you admit there may be a winner out there. You heard one(was it a Thor DAC?) that was passable and haven't heard all the good options available yet.

Now, we're making progress! :-))

Hopefully, I can find a good home listening room here in Chicago, still looking at the moment.

 

Page processed in 0.020 seconds.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]