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Silly Question: What does "tight" Bass mean to you?

75.60.208.209
Posted on October 13, 2011 at 09:41:09
"Red"
Audiophile

Posts: 606
Location: Central Ohio
Joined: January 18, 2005
 I see this term repeatedly... It seems to be the standard for the best quality bass.

Does "tight" mean the bass is more solid?

Is tight bass more hefty?

Does it mean the bass has more weight or less weight?

I know "tight" in its conventional definition is the opposite of "loose."

No one wants "loose" bass.

But audio descriptors seem to mean different things to different people.

Me, I like midbass with punch and low bass with weight and impact. Bass needs to have and should have impact. I dislike leanness and thinness in my sound. For me, bass should also extend, and tightness should not be at the expense of extension.

 

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RE: Silly Question: What does "tight" Bass mean to you?, posted on October 13, 2011 at 09:49:28
magiccarpetride
Audiophile

Posts: 1523
Joined: March 31, 2010
 Tight bass to me means that I'm noticing certain 'singing' quality in the bass that wasn't present before I made the change that introduced that tightness. In other words, the tighter the reproduced bass is, the more musical it sounds. Loose bass means muddy, wooly sound that resembles grumbling noise and does not connect with the rest of the instruments in a musical way.

 

when the woofer responds to the input signal there is a bit of 'lag' time, posted on October 13, 2011 at 09:57:26
PhilJ
Audiophile

Posts: 2826
Joined: January 20, 2002
 because it is an object that has weight and needs to start moving (and stopping) according to the signal fed it.

This lag time variation is often referred to as 'loose' if it becomes noticable and a lesser (unnoticable) lag time to respond to signal input is known at 'tight'.

pardon my wordy/clumsy description...

 

Coming from a two bass player rock "group", posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:00:37
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 We always had issues controlling the bass. Many stages that we played on in "rock" clubs were constructed on 2X6 or 2X4 and were hollow underneath. Bass would get down there and live, and smell really bad: coming out in strange, and not so welcome ways....

Yes, - sloppy bass, or overly reverberating bass is indeed annoying. But it goes much further than that. There is tonally accurate bass, there is smooth and tuneful bass, there is "tight" bass where the bass does not linger, or where the attack of the note, (or pluck of the string), is heard at the right time, and the note ends at the right time.

At audiophile shows, I usually bring something like Orbital, or some other techno disc. This really tests a system: as opposed to some whitewashed crap like Diana Krull, - who is our audiophile muzak star who has no talent, no creativity, (but good legs), and fairly decent recording. (Give me Madonna any day). While doing nothing, this doesn't test a system in any way. There's no low, fast, bass; to test how well a system is producing it.

In the world of classical music listening, we often find speakers and systems that do a horrible job with bass in order to get it lower. As common, acoustic, orchestral bass instruments do not go nearly as low, or have the body and weight of electronically produced bass. So, to compensate for that, and to warm up things like scratchy violins in the mids, the system designers overly compensate by manipulating the mid range, and lower range, to add more weight and low end to instruments that are lacking. Sadly, this often leads to tonal inaccuracies in other genri of music.

A speaker, system manufacturer gets EXACTLY the tonal balance, and spectrum balance that they want, for their customers. So if you agree with your manufacturer's idiosyncratic viewpoint, and their general music likes and dislikes, - you will be more inclined to follow along their path. I enjoy going to their rooms, and to their shows, with my John Digweed discs, and watch them freak out, running desperately for the volume knob...

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Wow!! great answer!!, posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:05:15
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 I agree totally......

Eso es why I love super huge, phat, high current, hybrid amplification, that is so fast, fascist, and unrelenting when it grabs a hold of a woofer and throttles it into extreme submission.

Couldn't agree with you more... I would hazard that along with a slowness to get moving, there is also a slowness to spin back down again....

Cheers,


"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: Wow!! great answer!!, posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:14:24
b.l.zeebub
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 I agree too and on the 'fascist' amps but if those amps try to grab hold of a passive speaker it is like trying to grab hold of a hagfish.

 

Nothing. I'll settle for accurate within the room. -nt, posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:17:19
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 3725
Joined: August 9, 2001
 nt

 

Room resonances, or lack thereof..., posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:18:37
genungo
 Resonance control will be the single most important factor for most people. Proper speaker placement, electronic bass management, and room treatments can make or break the quality of of bass reproduction. Also, a dipole speaker setup will often produce cleaner, tighter bass than monopole speaker setup will. A good standmount/subwoofer arrangement will sometimes produce cleaner, tighter bass than a pair of full range tower speakers. Next most important thing for bass quality is amplification and quality of speakers.

 

Ooooh Eel-like, posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:21:16
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 Hey,

Do those migrate to the Sargasso Sea like other eels?

We all can be a slippery at times I guess. :-)

Cheers Mr B!!



"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: Ooooh Eel-like, posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:33:36
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

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Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
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 A bit more slimy than your regular eel.

 

It's kind of hard to quantify but..., posted on October 13, 2011 at 10:45:55
goober58
 tightness matters.

 

RE: It's kind of hard to quantify but..., posted on October 13, 2011 at 11:27:52
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 3725
Joined: August 9, 2001
 "tightness matters."

Your hands, your imagination, or what real recent experience?

 

When you look at J Lo from behind..., posted on October 13, 2011 at 11:32:41
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...it's having the drum (usually) or bass guitar sound like it does in real life.

When I think of good solid state bass reproduction, I think of a sharp transient attack, followed by the bloom and decay of the bass drum sound.

"Tight" is like the drum head is torqued down some - it can mean "overdamped".

Back in the early 1980s, Dave Gruisin's direct-to-disk "Discovered Again" with the cut "Keep Your Eye On The Sparrow" was the big demo disc because it had the most realistic, tightest drum sounds anyone had heard at the time.

I have it now on CD and it's still impressive.

Then when I think of good tubed bass reproduction, it's less about the quick attack and more about the bloom and decay of the note with the ambient sound of the drum in three dimensions.

The ss bass is tighter, more attack oriented, but the tubes can sound more realistic because of the decay and spatial characteristics.

Hope this helps.

 

RE: Silly Question: What does "tight" Bass mean to you?, posted on October 13, 2011 at 11:55:45
avsBuddy
Audiophile

Posts: 696
Joined: March 8, 2010
 To me tight bass means bass with no artificial decay. It should be powerful in its force, yet not floppy after reproducing bass note, with no overhang, port noise etc.
Fast bass to me means, the rate with which bass can go from 0 to 60 and back to 0 again.
Usually high quality speaker design should be capable of both high speed and tight bass.

 

When you hear it, you'll know., posted on October 13, 2011 at 14:32:43
JimK
 And you'll know it immediately.

 

RE: Silly Question: What does "tight" Bass mean to you?, posted on October 13, 2011 at 15:12:19
Dman
Audiophile

Posts: 7211
Location: Kansas
Joined: January 28, 2001
 To me (at least), tight bass implies just what it sounds like- bass that doesn't have any overhang, boominess (additive only, if its in the music already, live with it!) indistinct character, or sounds like its out of time with the rest of the music. I've heard MANY systems that sound that way- more in the professional/club DJ systems and Live concert sound (although with line array speaker systems, things are getting better there, with big venues)...

Seems simple enough to me... Just listen to some live music (acoustic music or band playing live on the floor at a club, through their own amps) and compare. You should EASILY hear the difference.



Dman
Analog Junkie

 

RE: When you look at J Lo from behind..., posted on October 13, 2011 at 15:16:32
Dman
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Posts: 7211
Location: Kansas
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 Agreed that while some tubes won't do the extreme bottom end well (my system is a case study in that*), I run a pair of subs and a solid state power amp for the bottom octave, while high passing the tube amp to the main speakers. Great sounding, tight as J-Lo, and impressive on drums!

*Only when my subs are off and the main (tube) amp is running full range; whats left of the bottom octave is floppy. Also the midbass becomes quite unlistenable...



Dman
Analog Junkie

 

I always thought J Lo's ass looked more fluffy than tight..., posted on October 13, 2011 at 15:23:14
genungo
 ... but, who knows for sure?

 

Perhaps..., posted on October 13, 2011 at 15:29:51
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...tubed rather than ss?

Either way, I don't think "fluffy" is it.

 

Depends on the amp..., posted on October 13, 2011 at 15:34:21
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
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 ...and of course, the speakers.

I'm using Thiel 7.2s with Manley NeoClassic 250 tubed amps and the bass is pretty good.

 

RE: Depends on the amp..., posted on October 13, 2011 at 15:47:19
Dman
Audiophile

Posts: 7211
Location: Kansas
Joined: January 28, 2001
 That combo of Thiel 7.2s with Manley NeoClassic 250s must sound pretty ballsy! I've heard many a Manley, and am truly impressed with their ability to get some tight bass with the right speakers.

Personal pref- I like the ARC sound (updated in my case, with a rebuilt/modded D76a, sporting bigger PSU caps and some new ) into my own DIY dynamic dipoles (2- 6.5" mid-bass drivers) that actually get into the low 40hz when driven full range, but not exactly controlled, if you know what I mean. When I high pass the ARC (around 45hz, single pole, with everything else going to my subs), the speakers just open up and I get tube warmth/resolution/romanticism/whatever AND serious control to the low 20 Hz range...



Dman
Analog Junkie

 

Not fluffy?, posted on October 13, 2011 at 16:20:24
genungo
 Hmmmm... I'll have to think about this some more.

 

Well said, posted on October 13, 2011 at 16:52:13
E-Stat
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Posts: 37653
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Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 which is why I favor using near mass-less drivers.

rw

 

RE: Is itl like porn, posted on October 13, 2011 at 18:09:41
painter27
Audiophile

Posts: 5057
Location: wi.
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 I dont know what it is, but I know it when I hear it.

What? (bass players are strange people)

((insert smirk here))

 

it is a function of the room, posted on October 13, 2011 at 18:23:48
farfetched
Audiophile

Posts: 963
Location: Cleveland!
Joined: October 13, 2010
 That is how I view it. The punchiness of the bass + clarity/articulateness has to do with minimal resonances and suckouts being excited so that the low frequencies can sound from the speakers and not from the room "humming along" with them.

So look at the bass as somethign that is loaded, not so much by the speaker, as by the room. get your speakers set up right and the bass gets very clear and articulate. Don't set them up right, and that is the source of 98% of why people are dissatisfied with the low end of their systems




/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends


 

fluffy is what my kids called, posted on October 13, 2011 at 19:08:14
hifitommy
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Posts: 15387
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
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 what came OUT of their ass as gas.
...regards...tr

 

sordy, i have to take issue here, posted on October 13, 2011 at 19:26:19
hifitommy
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 with you re DK. truly, i never use her music as a demo. her performances on 'girl in the other room' and the dvd 'live from paris' are more reference for performance than sound (although that is exemplary). its too bad you have been overexposed.

the same thing happens periodically. carly simon's 'youre so vain' and cat stevens records were hard to not hear in an audio salon back in the glory days of high end. likewise the DTDs from sheffield and jazz at the pawnshop. even great music gets tiresome when you hear it at every demo.

yes, DK has some perfectly polished recordings that when heard often can be soporific. her version of tom waits' "temptation" is a pinnacle of modern female vocal quality.

i was in on the diana bashing at first (in her "flawless" stage, until i saw her on 'sessions at west 54th' where it was obvious that she was very human.

on 'paris', al schmitt is the engineer and a fantastic job he did with the sound plus the guitar work of anthony wilson with her adds up to some nice listening and viewing on the dvd. the dvd ' Live at the Montréal Jazz Festival' isnt bad either with peter erskine on drums.
...regards...tr

 

Re. "the *room* is the only influence on bass!" :-)) ..., posted on October 13, 2011 at 19:32:23
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12550
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 I think you are over-simplifying if you think the room is the only influence on bass. Sure the room has a major influence. IE. the wrong room/wrong positioning can make even speakers with fantastic bass delivery sound loose.

But I have heard situations where:
* even with a good ss amp, the bass driver was not well controlled (so much so that the guy replaced the bass drivers in his big-name speakers), and
* even when the speaker had a good bass driver, the amp couldn't do it justice.

IE. IMO, the room is not the only influence on bass.


Regards,

Andy

 

My brand new acoustic 360 bass amp., posted on October 13, 2011 at 21:39:42
Vic D
 For those who may be familiar with the Russ Alee designed 360/361 from the late 1960's, think steroids.

 

Does..., posted on October 13, 2011 at 22:14:39
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...this look "fluffy" to you?

Warning - may not be appropriate for work computers.

 

RE: Silly Question: What does "tight" Bass mean to you?, posted on October 13, 2011 at 23:12:34
russ69
Audiophile

Posts: 951
Joined: December 13, 2009
 Maggie 20s and a kilowatt amp.

 

RE: My brand new acoustic 360 bass amp., posted on October 13, 2011 at 23:22:01
musetap
Audiophile

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Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004






aa
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: Silly Question: What does "tight" Bass mean to you?, posted on October 14, 2011 at 00:33:08
RGA
Reviewer

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Location: Hong Kong
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 The thing with bass is that the speaker should be able to provide all sorts of different kinds of bass. I prize a speaker that delineates the bass in a variety of way depending on the recording. The best speakers will be tight when called for, or I suppose "slow" when it called for.

Decay is crucial for me to believe acoustic instruments like cello and piano are right there in the room. Many speakers present bass "their" way and usually suffocates the sound of the instrument's box. It presents a hacked off sound - the transient followed by the next transient followed byu the next transient - but the instrument's box is still resonating the last note - where did it go? Just disappeared - doesn't in real life. On another recording over lower quality or tight snare drum the speaker has to be nimble. The speaker has to be dynamic in the bass - it has to have powerful midbass hit you in the chest thump - that is obviously what the RE intends with rock - many speakers fail to remotely do justice to this.

A lot of people like small two way standmounts for this reason - they sound "tight" or tighter than their bigger floorstanding model. Tight bass if that's the only kind the speaker offers (usually from small panels and small standmounts) sounds tight because it doesn't have much bass or much dynamic bass. Which is why owners of such speakers usually start hunting for a subwoofer a few months after they realize their music sounds tinny and thin. But then you have the often one note subwoofer kind of bass which annoys people for music (great for home theater where we have no real "real life" cues).

I think what you said here "Me, I like midbass with punch and low bass with weight and impact. Bass needs to have and should have impact. I dislike leanness and thinness in my sound. For me, bass should also extend, and tightness should not be at the expense of extension." Is mostly what I believe.

The speaker should have punch and thwack in the midbass (drum kits) and impact but it should also have deeper "ambient" weight when called for. The trick then is to get it to work in the room and space requirements you have. For most the truly deep deep bass is not really doable (apartment living, smaller rooms, positioning requirements, the cost etc.) Bass also usually causes the most problems - if you take bass away then gee box resonances also go away - what a shock. So it may have a very clean crisp sound and the measured performance is supurb but they almost always sound completely gutless. Not much bass or bass dynamics = gutless irritating loudspeaker that makes Jack a boprderline lunatic.

Of course your listening preference also factors in - if you don't listen to music with midbass thwack (rock) and instead listen to slower steady note instruments (classical) then that thwack factor is not so important.

Still I prefer a speaker that does both the slower steady note acoustic instruments will and the "enhanced" drum through amp thwack in rock equally well. I want my cake and I want to be able to eat it. Not just one without the latter.

And the sound has to integrate exceptionally well from bass to midbass to midrange to treble. It has to sound as close to a single driver as possible - no really irritating hand off from drivers (virtually all big speakers are terrible at this even when I sit way back). Usher BE 10, the new expensive Sony speakers are some exceptions but I didn't get a chance to play my own music so I would want to make sure.

And the speaker needs to not take up the whole room. The Teresonic Ingenium speaker is a pretty nice balance of single driver with some actual bass and about as large as I would personally go.

The Gallo 3.5 on the less expensive end sounded good to me in show condition - heart pounding attack and very nimble. But I didn't throw enough recordings at it and it doesn't quite integrate - but was very close and given the price it does a lot right - I would love to try a set one day in my own place. Interesting design.



 

Actually..., posted on October 14, 2011 at 00:45:05
genungo
 ... yes, it does! Much more so than I had previously thought.

 

RE: Wow!! great answer!!, posted on October 14, 2011 at 04:31:58
tmsorosk
 I thought hybrid amps were high watts but low current , What model were you speaking of ?

 

I have noticed this effect..., posted on October 14, 2011 at 05:03:22
reuben
Audiophile

Posts: 1639
Joined: September 28, 2004
 ...only when the full range speakers try (and fail) to reproduce bass deeper than they were designed for.

A sub for the bottom octave or two fixes me up.

-reub
Dark energy? Ridiculous!
We live in an electric universe.

 

It is usually related to the Qts of the bass system, posted on October 14, 2011 at 07:36:39
morricab
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 A high Q system will have a lot of energy storage and notes will "go on" longer than they should. A low Q system will be well damped and should stop essentially when the signal to the woofer stops, a high Q system will not stop immediately. It also has to do with how the bass frequency response balance is with regard to the rest of the spectrum and the storage/release of energy from the cabinet. The better controlled these things are the "tighter" the bass will sound.

It can either go very deep or not but that is not what makes the bass tight or not. It is the propensity of the driver/box to make sound after the initial signal has passed. The problem is that a signal is always supplanted in time by the next input and if the driver is still moving or the box is still singing then that new input is colored by the previous one and an ongoing "smearing" of the bass occurs. The bass then no longer sounds tight or well resolved.

For most box speakers, it seems to be the cabinet and the overall design that affects this the most. Most vented systems have a relatively high Q in order to give a "full" sounding bass but it is often difficult then to get a tight sound...unless one tries to combat this with an overdamped amplifier. A sealed box system will more often be correctly designed to have optimal damping or even slightly overdamped. This means that it does not rely on the amplifier have what is essentially a truncated signal in order to control driver motion. There is a "stiff" spring that is exerting mechanical control over the driver then.

I used to have Infinity IRS Betas, and one of the interesting thing about them was that the Bass bins were servo controlled. One of the interesting adjustments of this system was an electronic Q control. Since there was a feedback signal from the drivers themselves, the Q Control could adjust the kind of signal going to the amp of the woofers and make the sound super tight and dry or really loose and fat. Obviously, somewhere in between but towards the tighter end was optimal (a Q of about 0.7-0.8 was ideal for most music). When the feedback was disconnected then the woofers sounded a bit more flabby. It is the second best bass from a system I have heard. The best bass I have heard was from my Acoustat Spectra 4400s, which is amazing.

The best vented speaker system I have ever heard from a VENTED system is the Wilson X1 Grand SLAMM. It has a low Q for a vented system (close to optimal) and is tight, fast, deep and loads of slam. I think a lot of that has to do with the utterly inert cabinet. Impressive.

 

I was just throwing benzene on the fire , posted on October 14, 2011 at 09:01:56
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 not really serious, well too serious.....

She does have really good legs. And I am really happy for Elvis, that is, if he's happy! :-)

Cheers man....

No doubt too, Peter Erskine is a great drummer.

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Oi...yes, posted on October 14, 2011 at 10:08:28
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 There are a few manufacturers who do build high current designs that don't exactly double but push it. In addition, there are also a few that make High Current SS amps that double the WPC output..

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

It usually means wimpy bass from a 6" speaker that an audiophile, posted on October 14, 2011 at 10:50:30
tinear
Audiophile

Posts: 65782
Location: Kansas City, KS
Joined: April 9, 2006
 has convinced himself is realistic.

 

You either need ESL lessons or new glasses., posted on October 14, 2011 at 10:55:00
tinear
Audiophile

Posts: 65782
Location: Kansas City, KS
Joined: April 9, 2006
 If that's "fluffy," I'm Snoop Dog.

 

too much booze?, posted on October 14, 2011 at 14:34:55
soldermizer
Audiophile

Posts: 636
Location: Brooksville, FL
Joined: April 15, 2005
 Sorry, I'm an ass.

I'm a fan of Tom Waits ... his song "The Piano Has Been Drinking" is a gem.

 

RE: Silly Question: What does "tight" Bass mean to you?, posted on October 14, 2011 at 14:54:05
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 IMO, tight Bass is tonally accurate.

 

RE: Silly Question: What does "tight" Bass mean to you?, posted on October 14, 2011 at 17:19:13
Jive Turkey
Audiophile

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Location: far left, geographically speaking
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 To me it means without "excess" or "added" fuzz and overhang, as well as excellent note definition.

See ya. Dave

 

OK, I'm humbled... , posted on October 15, 2011 at 02:42:44
Vic D
 I bought one of those on a rainy Monday, December 1, 1969 at Leo's Music on Collage Ave. in Oakland. That happened to be John Francis' birthday.

The acoustic was a stunning system but difficult to hear in small indoor venues. Short on funds I was forced to sell it and replace it with the tubed Ampeg SVT. I immediately dreaded the SVT for many reasons but it was easy to hear in close proximity without deafening the audience. Selling it was clearly one of the most regretable things I'd done, and suddenly they were out of production.

This new, Made In The USA 360/361 was redesigned by Russ Alee with its original virtues and much more. It's a full $2K more than the discounted, and still very nice, made in Vietnam Ampeg SVT VR / 810 AV reissue. Have a look.

http://acousticbassusa.com/

 

Hey, Snoop...., posted on October 15, 2011 at 07:38:50
genungo
 Ever check out the front pages of National Enquirer while you are waiting in line at the Super? BTW, I'm not sayin' a little "fluffiness" is a bad thing. All women have it to some degree.

 

Cool..., posted on October 15, 2011 at 08:39:55
musetap
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Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 I posted the Jaco photos 'cause he's the one that brought the 360 to my attention and was the one that made it even MORE famous. Heard him use them with WR a couple times.
That's a trip you bought yours on his 18th BD.

I tested a 360 once at Don Wehr's Music City. Too much for me in all regards. Had the chance to play through an old SVT a couple times - what a beautiful, ferocious beast!

Never pursued playing enough to warrant owning such grand amplifiers.

Sounds like you may have retired from playing acoustic bass, but not electric.

Enjoy your new toy!!!!


"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: Cool..., posted on October 15, 2011 at 09:24:18
Vic D
 Music City, we must be Bay Area neighbors. Did you catch any of the Greek theater shows?

Back in the day before I purchased the acoustic there really wasn't any truly loud Bass gear and I rarely had access to a PA channel so the back line was it. I was using one or two DIY JBL 4530 Scoops, Marantz 8B's, and a Fender Twin Reverb as the preamp. Great sounding system but a real pain to move and setup. As big as the trunks were they were a breeze to work with compared the the DIY system (think 1961 Plymouth station wagon).

This was strictly a nostalgia purchase but my Son's band has already used it at an outdoor job. It's way loud.

 

Thanks for the link..., posted on October 15, 2011 at 11:05:57
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...your porn site.

Live chat?

 

RE: Cool..., posted on October 15, 2011 at 11:29:22
musetap
Audiophile

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  Since: January 28, 2004
 Yeah, I'm in SF.
Saw WR (my favorite band at the time) at the UC Jazz Fest/Greek in ...'80?
Sonny Rollins and Pat Metheny on the same bill.
Started on the hilltop and worked our way down to row 20 or so by the time WR hit. It was like being IN a speaker!
Saw them at the Warfield a couple years later. Jaco was on FIRE!
Saw-post Jaco WR a few times too (always loved most any version of WR and wish I'd seen some AJ WR) and Jaco
with his WOM band and in a trio setting with Brian Melvin at Bajones.
Poor Jaco was a mess by then, but was nice and could still play like nobodies business.
He signed an LP for me.

Sounds like you've been using some very serious gear for a long time!

I stopped playing bass about 15 years ago, though sometimes get the hankering to start again.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

"All women have it to some degree"?? Well, except for ballet dancers, gymnasts, downhill skiers etc :-)) nt, posted on October 16, 2011 at 01:05:27
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12550
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 .

 

RE: Cool..., posted on October 23, 2014 at 07:39:17
Inmate51
 "I stopped playing bass about 15 years ago, though sometimes get the hankering to start again. "

DO IT!!!!

Back in the day, I was a pretty decent trumpet player. Then, I let my audio and computer careers get in the way, and the next thing I knew, I hadn't played in 20 years. Huge mistake! Now I've been playing since 2005, and loving almost every minute of it, although I only get about 30-45 minutes of practicing in each day, so I'm nowhere near where I was when I was playing 3-5 hours a day. Still, it's great be in a band and playing again!

Haul that axe out!

Hey Vic D, I was in your area (Berkeley) about ten days ago! Do you ever go hear Scooter (Scott Englebright) play? I haven't seen you around on the Maynard Ferguson forum in a while. Not much going on there these days. I only check in about once a week now.

Another fine bass player, Brian Mulholland, who was MF's last bassist, lives here in the Dallas. He and Stockton Helbing play together pretty regularly. Cool.

:)

 

RE: Re. "the *room* is the only influence on bass!" :-)) ..., posted on October 23, 2014 at 07:58:42
Inmate51
 Farfetched wrote:

"get your speakers set up right and the bass gets very clear and articulate. Don't set them up right, and that is the source of 98% of why people are dissatisfied with the low end of their systems."

As has been discussed here and elsewhere ad nauseum for decades, and is true.

"98%" is an expression, not a factual statistic. It's like saying "giving 110%". Nobody can give 110% of their effort - 100% is, by definition, the maximum. It's an expression.

Clearly, matching speakers and amps is essential, but room setup can make or break even a great match. That's the point.

Edit: Having said that, playing music in nightclubs and other smallish venues often doesn't give you a lot of choices about where to put the speakers.

:)

 

RE: Depends on the amp..., posted on October 23, 2014 at 10:49:47
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Nice! Thiel speakers are my reference as well.

 

RE: Silly Question: What does "tight" Bass mean to you?, posted on October 23, 2014 at 10:52:09
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Red-
for me, it means articulate or natural. The bass can be weighted (electric) or non-weighted (acoustic). Many applications applies here depending upon using solid-state or tubed gear.

 

RE: Silly Question: What does "tight" Bass mean to you?, posted on December 26, 2017 at 07:14:28
jimmycj
Audiophile

Posts: 1507
Joined: December 6, 2004
 It really means nothing to me. All I want is what's on the recording.

 

RE: Silly Question: What does "tight" Bass mean to you?, posted on May 23, 2020 at 14:01:25
Don Reid
Audiophile

Posts: 890
Location: Rural NW Georgia
Joined: February 2, 2001
Contributor
  Since: April 1, 2010
 Tight bass is bass that is tonally correct played by woofers that promptly start and stop when the signal does and is free of boomy room resonances. The best bass in my opinion is bass from good horn loaded woofers with resonances tamed by room treatments and or DSP.


I dream of an America where a chicken can cross the road without having it's motives questioned.

 

RE: Silly Question: What does "tight" Bass mean to you?, posted on May 24, 2020 at 03:43:06
JURB
Audiophile

Posts: 2056
Location: North Ohio
Joined: May 29, 2016
 Listen to The Who - Who are you.

The pervading bass line in that song tell me - it is one note or two ?

It is two. Many speakers do not put out the bass notes put into them, THAT is the real difference to me. You put in 44Hz and it pits out 88Hz, and it reads out just fine when tested so it is flat response, but with the way they spec speakers since about the mid 1980s all the junk put out by the speaker is included and makes the numbers look better. Argue all you want, I know what the fuck I am talking about.

you are not here looking for welfare, go and buy a bass guitar. Play a string ope and at the twelfth fret, the one with the two dots. hear the difference ? Well some speaker do not put outt aa difference, both are the same.

Look Man, high fidelity means putting out what was put in. Fidelity to the source. And so many do not understand that. They go out and buy their system with a one note woofer and balsa wood satellite speakers and have no fucking clue what music is supposed to sound like.

And tight bass to me also means well damped. Only my Mac monoblocks I got rid of are anything I would hook to a woofer. I want solid state on the woofers and I want damping factors up in the thousands. Tight ?

Curiously I pushed the cone of a woofer. then I hooked it to an amp, the cone was harder to push. Then I shorted the terminals right at the woofer and it was even harder to push.

What does that tell you ? Got doubts try it yourself.

Tight bass to me means that when the material is 19Hz I get 19Hz out. If it is 231Hz I get 231Hz out. To me tight bass means tightly controlled.

You all scoffed at my Phase Linear 400 about not enough iron and Farads, but that son of a bitch with the 1,000 damping factor did sound different. It was in the design, not the heft. Go ahead and load up the garage with capacitors on your amp, cool your transformer in a swimming pool, but if the amp circuit is not designed right is is all junk.

And believe me, tight bass does not come from more power.

 

RE: Silly Question: What does "tight" Bass mean to you?, posted on May 24, 2020 at 09:31:10
LtMandella
 As you have noticed, natural language provides a poor basis for accurately describing what we hear when listening to music.

So we are forced to use vague euphimisms that are open to varying interpretations.

"Tight" bass to me means that the reproduction is close to original in attack, decay, and pitch of the original bass instrument(s) and venue as heard from a "typical" venue listening position.

As I said, natural language is a poor medium to describe what humans hear.

 

RE: Gallo Ref 3.5 Experience, posted on May 24, 2020 at 10:12:14
House13
Audiophile

Posts: 337
Location: SE TN
Joined: February 17, 2008




My loudspeaker make and model were usually paired with inferior budget electronics and so their true potential was never realized by their owners who then moved on.

The Gallo Ref 3.5's have no crossovers, enclosures or ports, the usual weaknesses of most loudspeakers. I feel the CDT high frequency unit is superior to most dome tweeters for both soundstage and accuracy. I felt that raising the speakers 8 inches on solid ballistic rubber blocks improved all parameters.

I have supplemented the Ref 3.5's with the Wilson Benesch Torus Infrasonic Generator System to add the lowest octave. The WB Torus System allows the low frequency harmonics in the system to be revealed. It produces a very clean signal with no bloat and exceptional definition. Most subwoofer systems can do quantity but sacrifice quality. WB Torus does not just produce low frequency volume at the expense of detail. It is quite unlike anything on the current market. The WB amp/crossover is in a separate chassis form the Torus eliminating the heat and vibration found in a self contained subwoofer system.

 

Don't know?, posted on May 25, 2020 at 08:06:32
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15167
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 I'm still getting over what 'my first set of cans' is all about?

 

more mid bass and less deep bass, posted on May 26, 2020 at 09:37:54
richardl
Audiophile

Posts: 3555
Joined: September 5, 2002
 to each his own

 

RE: Silly Question: What does "tight" Bass mean to you?, posted on May 26, 2020 at 10:25:56
rivervalley817
 is that you R. Green?


be well,


 

"Tight" bass to me is what I have, posted on May 28, 2020 at 20:02:08
JohnKutheRN
Audiophile

Posts: 529
Location: MO
Joined: September 16, 2019



Two 15" Dayton Subwoofer drivers in a truck box with double 3/4" plywood motor board and a 1000W Dayton Plate amp to drive them! :-)

John Kuthe...

 

RE: "Tight" bass to me is what I have, posted on May 30, 2020 at 19:53:31
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Nice pic! JK

 

Thanks! Yerah I found the truck box on Craigslist, It was perfect! :-), posted on May 31, 2020 at 19:11:20
JohnKutheRN
Audiophile

Posts: 529
Location: MO
Joined: September 16, 2019
 John Kuthe...

 

RE: Silly Question: What does "tight" Bass mean to you?, posted on June 1, 2020 at 14:17:28
farfetched
Audiophile

Posts: 963
Location: Cleveland!
Joined: October 13, 2010
 I would say tightness = controlled in the sense of accurately expressing. Here is why.

Attending concerts in nice seats at Severance Hall in Cleveland, I asked myself just such questions: what is accurate bass?

I noted, as a rule the bass at Severance was kind of plush. One might even call it ever so mildly loose. It was less "precise" than what my audiophile ears had expected! (13th row center, on the floor, mixed with front row center, first balcony -- floor is most thrilling, balcony a bit more cerebral but both moving)

However, the percussion and double bass sections of the Cleveland Orchestra know how to play the hall! They could make the place hum, they could cause snaps and starts that take your breath away. It is hard to say whether the place was loose or tight, because the players own that acoustic. Beautiful stuff, we are a lucky species.

The thing is, it was always controlled, I realized. They played that room,they played those pieces. The bass was in place, right there, and right when needed. Sometimes it lays low, out times it snaps and takes over the acoustic. Things are different down there. Neptune's realm, and whatnot.

In a good recording, that is what I listen for. The control the players have, the surprising charms of those instruments, that part of the music,and the halls or mixes.

Listen to bass at a good place that presents a decent acoustic (good luck!). Tune your system to do *that*.

edit: this is of course the "absolute sound" solution to the natural language problem. The natural language problem is very real, but if you appeal to a *listening* reference point to make a system "be" something you are trying to pin a word on (tight, airy, authoritative, dictatorial, ebullient, whatever) at least you have that listening reference point even if natural language, by definition, inadequate.

The problem with the absolute sound approach, is what is the listening reference for non-acoustic forum-ed music types? In other words, what if I want to listen to something that is essentially a studio reproduction?

Man, that is the rub. I just avoid the mess, and happily get to Severance Hall whenever I need to calibrate my sonic head.



/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends


 

RE: Silly Question: What does "tight" Bass mean to you?, posted on June 8, 2020 at 01:28:09
jrlaudio
Industry Professional

Posts: 76
Location: New York
Joined: November 2, 2012
 Tight bass ... that very elusive thing nobody can really describe. But I'll give it a go.

As an engineer I cannot tell you how many times I have had this discussion with bass players. Most bass players have never "heard" a low-F fundamental (27Hz) on their five string bass. Never. However I always had sound reinforcement systems that were designed to go way below that. And it was only bass guitars and keyboards I allowed to go to those sub systems. I generally used 15" or even 12" drivers with crazy high power (usually 5000+ watts just for the subs in small clubs, exponentially more in larger venues) and high damping factors by using very short #6 gauge speaker cables. The bass was extended to the lowest octaves, but also fast and controlled due to damping factors over 300. Something few bass players ever experienced before in live performance. What most called "punchy" is that weird range in the bass guitar around 320Hz or so, but the lowest octaves is something they had just never experienced before. Not only did they have heft when they played the lowest notes but the dynamics were huge when called upon.

Now in playback systems it's somewhat different. Extension to the lowest octaves is essential, but control is tantamount to "tightness". If you use subs, you should never be able to perceive their presence unless those crazy low octaves are there. The amplitude response should be flat with no noticeable peaks in the upper bass octaves. However, all that being equal ... tightness is about speed. The sub should never produce frequencies that are not in the music. If the note stops, so should the sub. If the note attacks, so should the sub. Tightness is the ability of a sub system to produce quick impulses with nothing in between and do so with equal amplitude across its entire bandwidth. Most full range speakers cannot ever do that (a few Thiel models could), and the same is true for most dedicated subs ...

In my home I use subs that use servo control, specifically Rythmik Audio F12G's. These subs maintain control over the driver using servo feedback systems that respond to excursions very quickly and allow the subs to operate nearly flat down to about 14Hz in my listening room. They are fast a hell. Best subs I have ever used at home. I first saw Rythmik subs at Sterling Sound in NYC when I was there for a mastering session. I use two in my system and you have to walk up to them and touch the drivers to realize they are doing anything, and they are doing everything below 84Hz in my system. When the music produces certain sub-20Hz signals, my eyes actually jiggle around where I see everything shaking in the room. Yes ... my eyes actually jiggle around in their sockets. Yet the subs are transparent, blending into the system seamlessly. They are exactly what my definition of what "tight" is.

Now bear in mind my room is a dedicated space for music and movies. Concrete floors, three layers of 3/4" drywall on the walls, of a trapezoidal room with treatment and acoustic measurement. So I can get everything out of the subs and not have the room acoustics mess with my head too much. Subs are very hard to get "tight" in the typical home living space. But with the Rythmik F12G most have a fighting chance of getting tight deep bass. I have specified them for many home systems I have built for friends over the years and they rarely disappoint.

 

RE: Problems with subwoofers, posted on June 9, 2020 at 08:08:57
House13
Audiophile

Posts: 337
Location: SE TN
Joined: February 17, 2008
 I may be wrong about servo bass but I am open to enlightenment. For the servo to correct an error it must detect one. So the error is already present and you hear it. The servo then applies correction to restore linearity. So, to me, a servo is just a band aid. It does not prevent errors but only stops its repetition.

Regarding subwoofers in general: They all have self-contained electronics which is the worst place to put them, in a highly pressured vibrating box. Audiophiles spend a fortune on resonance control devices elsewhere and yet accept this compromise. Further, the enclosed space allows heat build up which can jeopardize electronics' reliability. I prefer free standing amp/crossovers for many reasons.

 

RE: Problems with subwoofers, posted on June 15, 2020 at 20:46:39
jrlaudio
Industry Professional

Posts: 76
Location: New York
Joined: November 2, 2012
 Assumptions laid upon assumptions.

The reality is the server control is instantaneous. In other words what is measured and corrected occurs simultaneously with the source. You're assuming the effect happens before the correction can be made. Not so.

Think of it this way, you pull on your finger and your elbow moves. If somebody looks at your finger and holds their hand out and limits how far your elbow can move, when and how you pull your finger is academic. The correction or limit occurs simultaneously.

Audiophiles may spend a fortune on "resonance control", but that doesn't make those alleged hyper-phonic effects a real thing, especially at low frequency. That again is an assumption made out of training by marketing. If gear is that effected by hyper-phonics there is something wrong with either the design or the components used. (Tubes being the exception which are prone to micro-phonic and acoustic excitation; one of the main reasons they are considered a vestigial technology).

Heat build up? First, the heat dissipation is on the outside on these subwoofers. Second, there is no high-powered gain stage in existence that doesn't produce heat at significant high temperatures, especially at the devices themselves. Temperatures there routinely exceed 80C, even at quiescent levels depending on circuit topology; even very efficient topology designs.

I am glad you are open to learning, your assumptions were just that.

 

RE: Problems with subwoofers, posted on June 16, 2020 at 07:16:23
House13
Audiophile

Posts: 337
Location: SE TN
Joined: February 17, 2008
 I stand informed and corrected on servos. I still do not agree that vibration and heat build up have negligible effect on electronics in the enclosed space of a subwoofer cabinet.

 

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